2016 NHK Trophy Free Dance

[Skater Boy]

I had a chance to finally see the "top" teams. I think P C have a certain je ne sais quoi however, I do feel Gabby is sufficiently behind Guillaume. To those who have hated or picked on say Chan Guillaume is way, way over rated. I think it is disgusting and distasteful to focus on his looks, body, chest hair or whatever. He definitely has a dance body and you can see that but it doesn't work unless his partner can match the line and style. And this is ICE dancing not just ballet dancing. Because of the glaring difference in skating skills I think this team which perhaps does have more it factor or magic needs to be penalized in its score or rather marked fairly and not given such high scores. But they still with the errors seem to be the lead team or equal to V and M as noted by the pcs where if the judges wanted to they could up V and M's scores or lower PC.

V and M well I don't love their FD especially but I give them credit for not playing it safe and doing something different. I realize that doesn't mean you should score higher. I agree that the height factor is a bit of challenge for lifts and such. I admire how competitive they are despite not having the size differnece. As for Scott and his personality I love his honestly.

The anti Canada for lack of words position. Coincident or not I am fed up whether it is anti Canadian or just a fluke that Canadian skaters are picked on - Chan, Duhamel and Radford, V and M, Gabby, Osmond et al. They don't deserve it. And I am not anti Mao, Hanyu, Yuna, P/C and all but Ijust don't think these skaters should be criticized so harshly or claims of overmarked. BEcause if that is the case Hanyu et al should at the very least deserve the same criticque or comments. Though in part the apparent bias or hatred might be due to how loud various posters yell and scream for lack of words.

I kind of feel sorry for S and K and I and Z. I really hoped for a happier outcome for them but it doesn't look great.

 

[olayolay]

I assume everyone is talking about P/C's Non touching diagonal step sequence (NtDiSt)?

I don't know what the judges saw, but 7 of the 9 judges gave them GOE 2. Only the judges from France and Poland gave them GOE 3. Since so many other judges gave them GOE 2, they must have all seen something. The tech panel also placed the step sequence at level 3 (for the same reason?).

The tech panel only assesses level of difficulty. Judging panel assesses execution. P/C's no-touch was a lot sloppier and less sharp than V/M's no-touch. Gabi in particular has a lot of trouble matching her leg line with Guillaume's.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I had a chance to finally see the "top" teams. I think P C have a certain je ne sais quoi however, I do feel Gabby is sufficiently behind Guillaume. To those who have hated or picked on say Chan Guillaume is way, way over rated. I think it is disgusting and distasteful to focus on his looks, body, chest hair or whatever. He definitely has a dance body and you can see that but it doesn't work unless his partner can match the line and style.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that at all. You can't reasonably defend an argument that says Skater X is overrated because his/her partner isn't up to the same standard. You can say the partnership doesn't work; that is at least a argument with a reasonable basis.

 

[4everchan]

i think what skaterboy means with his legendary colourful language is the same as for pairs... you can have a skater do a fabulous 3LZ but if the other did pop on it... only the single will count, and the team will get negative GOE... so in some ways, he is meaning that yes, Guillaume is great but should the team be assessed as the lowest level they project, since he mentions (and many others have) that Gabriella is weaker.

I feel the same when i look at Bruno Massot... why do they get such high PCS... he is a great lifter and thrower and twister and even his spins are fine... but damn.... have you seen him try to dance in their SP.... I the first time i saw it... the second time I and now.... i just :hopelessness:

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that at all. You can't reasonably defend an argument that says Skater X is overrated because his/her partner isn't up to the same standard. You can say the partnership doesn't work; that is at least a argument with a reasonable basis.

 

[cocotaffy]

As you're all talking about that mysterious level 2 call on the Partial Step Sequence, I thought I would post a link exactly pinpointing when this sequence starts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DLeO4RoGLA&t=2m1s
it ends with the rotational lift at around 2min30.
I don't get the level 2, but I'm no expert. I've rewatched V/M's and I don't see how it is superior in quality to P/C's but again what do I know. This level business is really opaque for fans which can make the scores really baffling sometimes.

 

[4everchan]

yeah... that's one of the two elements...

all i see here and i am not an expert and i mentioned it in the earlier posts is that around the 220-223 mark their lines aren't matching.... if that's a keypoint could they lose levels ?

As you're all talking about that mysterious level 2 call on the Partial Step Sequence, I thought I would post a link exactly pinpointing when this sequence starts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DLeO4RoGLA&t=2m1s
it ends with the rotational lift at around 2min30.
I don't get the level 2, but I'm no expert. I've rewatched V/M's and I don't see how it is superior in quality to P/C's but again what do I know. This level business is really opaque for fans which can make the scores really baffling sometimes.

 

[4everchan]

for the other step sequence,

unison here is off... and then later on, gabby seems behind https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DLeO4RoGLA&t=2m44s

i know some of you have mentioned that she is not stumbling there a bit later.. but it looks bad if she isn't... i am no judge though

 

[Sugarpova]

I dont think it was a great idea for me to rewatch PC after VM
the magic is really gone...

at least with these performances
I'd put P/C lower than CL

 

[rosy14]

i think what skaterboy means with his legendary colourful language is the same as for pairs... you can have a skater do a fabulous 3LZ but if the other did pop on it... only the single will count, and the team will get negative GOE... so in some ways, he is meaning that yes, Guillaume is great but should the team be assessed as the lowest level they project, since he mentions (and many others have) that Gabriella is weaker.

I feel the same when i look at Bruno Massot... why do they get such high PCS... he is a great lifter and thrower and twister
and even his spins are fine... but damn.... have you seen him try to dance in their SP.... I the first time i saw it... the
second time I and now.... i just :hopelessness:

Not to mention Massot's skating skills.
And as for Cizeron: sometimes it seems judges are rewarding his "physique du role", not his skating. I find other skaters to be not so physical, but better technically. He too stays a lot on two feet, by instance, not only Papadakis.

 

[heavy]

Can you give examples?

Not to mention Massot's skating skills.
And as for Cizeron: sometimes it seems judges are rewarding his "physique du role", not his skating. I find other skaters to be not so physical, but better technically. He too stays a lot on two feet, by instance, not only Papadakis.

 

[AliAle]

And as for Cizeron: sometimes it seems judges are rewarding his "physique du role", not his skating. I find other skaters to be not so physical, but better technically. He too stays a lot on two feet, by instance, not only Papadakis.

It's fine to say his physicality is impressive, but how do you separate that from the fact that his physicality and posture enable him to do things better? Carriage is part of the criteria for Performance/Execution. His mobility and training give him superb knee bend, deep edges, extensions (eg: that spread eagle position in the lifts is the lowest I've ever seen on any male dancer), are you saying these should not be part of his skating skills/performance and shouldn't be graded as such?
I find it ridiculous how many "defects" we're finding in Cizeron's skating after one misstep in the Grand Prix. For me, what he might lack sometimes in precision is more than made up by his raw talent, he just has that indefinable quality that you cannot train and that most skaters would sell their souls to posses.

 

[heavy]

Even Charlie White said about Gabriella & Guillaume:
"When i grow up, i want to skate like them"

 

[rosy14]

It's fine to say his physicality is impressive, but how do you separate that from the fact that his physicality and posture enable him to do things better? Carriage is part of the criteria for Performance/Execution. His mobility and training give him superb knee bend, deep edges, extensions (eg: that spread eagle position in the lifts is the lowest I've ever seen on any male dancer), are you saying these should not be part of his skating skills/performance and shouldn't be graded as such?
I find it ridiculous how many "defects" we're finding in Cizeron's skating after one misstep in the Grand Prix. For me, what he might lack sometimes in precision is more than made up by his raw talent, he just has that indefinable quality that you cannot train and that most skaters would sell their souls to posses.

I haven't t appreciated the French as much as you since the start. I found their Mozart program quite good, but they lacked since then enough technical qualities. As a matter of fact, they were always behind (2nd, 3rd, even 4th) after the SD, except at the last Worlds. At Euros 2016 they were behind Cappellini/Lanotte of more than one point, both on TES and , more important, on PCS. I much prefer other skaters. Yes, "le physique du role" is important and Cizeron is impressive, but i think - it's my opinion, you don't have to agree with me - it helps him masquerading his defects. As others have already written. And perhaps, just perhaps, they don't do other stuff, because other stuff requires higher technical characteristics.
As for the two feet, look at the programs and compare him with other big names, such as Moir and White.
Charles White has been very gracious with them, publicly, on TV. What he really thinks, privately, we don't know. When ALL the people, public, judges, trainers, etc, start saying "oh, what marvellous, wonderful, exceptional, magical,,,," someone is, it's difficult to voice a different opinion.
However I really hope they will bounce back at Marseille. Because another performance like that in Japan, at home, can be really psychologically troublesome. And now they know, and the other couples know, they are vulnerable this year.

 

[heavy]

I think he is human have good days and bad days. The first World Championship it was a surprise for them not only for the rest of the fans. They have the vulnerability moments like others had it in the past. Tessa Virtue and Scott know very well these moments. What I don't understand is why people are overjoyed one performance not so perfect. Specially because Tessa and Scott won, they are much better. They aren't much better or worse, they are different and older, have more experience, this can make a difference in key moments. Some days are good others not so much. I have this experience as a fan of Tessa & Scott. I will have as a fan of Gabriella & Guillaume. They bring different things to Ice Dance. Both teams are important to Ice Dance.

 

[rosy14]

I think he is human have good days and bad days. The first World Championship it was a surprise for them not only for the rest of the fans. They have the vulnerability moments like others had it in the past. Tessa Virtue and Scott know very well these moments. What I don't understand is why people are overjoyed one performance not so perfect. Specially because Tessa and Scott won, they are much better. They aren't much better or worse, they are different and older, have more experience, this can make a difference in key moments. Some days are good others not so much. I have this experience as a fan of Tessa & Scott. I will have as a fan of Gabriella & Guillaume. They bring different things to
Ice Dance. Both teams are important to Ice Dance.

Problem is that, at least in other skate forums, Youtube, FB pages, people are literally crazy for them. You can't say anything critical, even demonstrating your points, that they latch at you, trash you, menace you, ban you, etc. So now that judges have seen things some of us have been seeing since two years ago, again especially in the short programs, we are a bit rejoicing. It's not fair, ok, but sometimes it's so naturale to say:-Ah, we were right the whole time!-.
When Wirtue and Moir announced they were back, many have commented that it would have been tough for P/C too, not only for the other Canadian couples. And lastly their scores in Paris were ridiculously high. So high that someone smellt a rat. No couple at home in November have had such scores, at least in the last years. Not even W/M.

 

[heavy]

No one for me is perfect all the time. Even Scott had minor problems in SD and they have a world record in the end.
I don't understand and the only thing I don't accept is people overjoyed because someone have a bad day. Can be anyone Guillaume, Scott, Javier, Yuzuru or Patrick Chan to give some examples. I can discuss the judges marks, like I do now because of such difference between these two teams but I never be happy with someone's unlucky day.
You have your opinion about the skating skills of Guillaume, I don't agree with the majority of it, but I respect. I'm not a judge, I see as fan.
I like to discuss different views because sometimes I start to see something I never noted until that time. Can be enriching.
That's why I ask you for examples of others skaters you think are better.
In my opinion they already change the history of Ice Dance, because when I saw the Mozart program I have the same feeling when I saw Bolero with Torvill & Dean. I accept people who think otherwise.

 

[KMK0902]

Problem is that, at least in other skate forums, Youtube, FB pages, people are literally crazy for them. You can't say anything critical, even demonstrating your points, that they latch at you, trash you, menace you, ban you, etc. So now that judges have seen things some of us have seen since two years ago, again especially in the short programs, we a bit rejoicing. It's not fair, ok, but sometimes it's so naturale to say:-Ah, we were right the whole time!-.
When Wirtue and Moir announced they were back, many have commented that it would have been tough for P/C too, not only for the other Canadian couples. And lastly their scores in Paris were ridiculously high. So high that someone smellt a rat. No couple at home in November have had such scores, at least in the last years. Not even W/M.

Very well put rosy14!

but you may have to run and hide since the C/P patrols will be out shortly to take you down

Here's to a successful GPF for ALL teams and FAIR and JUST judging for ALL as well.

 

[rosy14]

No one for me is perfect all the time. Even Scott had minor problems in SD and they have a world record in the end.
I don't understand and the only thing I don't accept is people overjoyed because someone have a bad day. Can be anyone Guillaume, Scott, Javier, Yuzuru or Patrick Chan to give some examples. I can discuss the judges marks, like I do now because of such difference between these two teams but I never be happy with someone's unlucky day.
You have your opinion about the skating skills of Guillaume, I don't agree with the majority of it, but I respect. I'm not a judge, I see as fan.
I like to discuss different views because sometimes I start to see something I never noted until that time. Can be enriching.
That's why I ask you for examples of others skaters you think are better.
In my opinion they already change the history of Ice Dance, because when I saw the Mozart program I have the same feeling when I saw Bolero with Torvill & Dean. I accept people who think otherwise.

You talk about feeling, I talk about technique. I talk about levels, GOE, PCS. I have reviewed in these days some big dances of the past, old and recent past, and the difference between those programs and P/C's is so striking even a non expert can recognise it. Mozart's was really good, last year was a copy of it ( copies are never good as the originals) and this year...and why not to try something completely new ? You're the two times Worlds champions, you're young...try something new. IF you're able to.

 

[heavy]

I talk about levels, GOE and PCS too.
They are young, they have time to tried different things. I don't agree this year is similar to last year... That music is dissonant not easy to skate in my opinion. They are trying at their rhythm.
When you say if they are able to do, it's only your opinion, you think they are so bad they aren't able. In a way you are angry with them and their marks.
I think with work anyone can do anything they want or dream.
You see the negative. I see the positive.
But you don't answer yet who is better than Guillaume.

You talk about feeling, I talk about technique. I talk about levels, GOE, PCS. I have reviewed in these days some big dances of the past, old and recent past, and the difference between those programs and P/C's is so striking even a non expert can recognise it. Mozart's was really good, last year was a copy of it ( copies are never good as the originals) and this year...and why not to try something completely new ? You're the two times Worlds champions, you're young...try something new. IF you're able to.

 

[Axel Rose]

I like P&C, this was just not a good competition for them. I'm sure their team is analyzing the levels now. It's not always clear (I'm still waiting 2 years later to figure out why V&M lost levels during their SD at Olympics), but looks like some people have figured out what happened to NHK. I always enjoy being educated on the boards

If you learn from a bad competition, it makes you an even greater champion.