Aaron striving to become more balletic on the ice

[samm22]

In other words...Liza gets inflated PCS for her jumps...

 

[Mathman]

In other words...Liza gets inflated PCS for her jumps...

And also, according to Karne, for her confidence and attack. I actually agree with Karne. This is what brings home the bacon in the program component department, not balletic posing. In my opinion, all Max needs is to carry out the choreographic theme more smoothly and consistently and weave his elements together with a touch more seamless grace. (All while doing three quads. )

 

[Interspectator]

In other words...Liza gets inflated PCS for her jumps...

I think so.
A skater who has difficult yet consistent jumps gets a bit of a PCS boost. (though how much is debatable)

 

[aromaticchicken]

Everyone's focusing on the balletic nature of things, but ignoring that Phillip Mills is also known for complex choreography and transitions. Just watch at how much fewer crossovers and two foot gliding max has in black swans compared to West side Story or carmen or gladiator, when for half the program he would just skate across the ice gaining speed for his quads.

Mills has added much more complex turns and full body movements, and it translates not just in performance/execution and skating skills, but in the transitions mark. It's a huge contrast to previous programs. (for any TSL fans, check out their IJS breakdown video of the transitions mark and listen to how they describe max's programs from two years ago... So different from black Swan.). I see a ton of potential for this program.

 

[aromaticchicken]

On a side note, that's partially why ashleys programs under Phillip Mills (in particular, when he was training under him daily) were much more intricate. I love moulin Rouge, but she does not have the most interesting transitions at all

 

[Krunchii]

Except in this case, it already has. His PCS for the FS at WTT was a new PB internationally for him.

Liza gets high marks because she jumps like a beast and skates with confidence and attack.

It was one competition... I find it hard to judge off of that, it's also the end of the season, judges get a bit more generous then, not saying he doesn't deserve his marks but just one competition is not enough to say it's working, he'll definitely be developing his programs choreographically and technically over the summer so I'll wait and see the final results spread over several competitions. I don't think he needs to be more balletic but it's his skating so his decision

I used Liza as an example of not needing to be balletic to get high marks, having other qualities and maximizing them can also bring high marks, such skating with confidence and attack

 

[andromache]

I guess what they're trying to say is conforming to the norm doesn't always translate into higher marks. So Youn has had ballet training but she doesn't get higher marks while other skaters who are not balletic (like Liza) get high marks just fine.

I don't think Max needs to balletic but I can understand why he would want to, I'd like to watch him for a season before deciding whether or not it helps him

So I used this Max article in a paper I'm writing at the moment and sort of discussed this issue. Summing up my argument here (partially to see what people think, and partially because I think I'm right want to contribute to this discussion):

Being balletic to earn high PCS certainly isn't necessary. OTOH, exhibiting intentionality and precision in movement is necessary to receiving high PCS (at least theoretically, but not necessarily in judging practice ). Dance in general is basically all about intentional, precise movements, while ballet is especially known for this. Thus, for skaters like Max who are known for sloppy skating and lacking choreography--whether such a criticism is valid or not, because I'm not here to pass judgement on Max's skating--it's logical to turn to ballet to exhibit more intentionality and precision in their movements.

Based on his WTT scores, it seems to be working so far. I'm looking forward to seeing his programs develop further.

 

[Sandpiper]

So I used this Max article in a paper I'm writing at the moment and sort of discussed this issue. Summing up my argument here (partially to see what people think, and partially because I think I'm right want to contribute to this discussion):

Being balletic to earn high PCS certainly isn't necessary. OTOH, exhibiting intentionality and precision in movement is necessary to receiving high PCS (at least theoretically, but not necessarily in judging practice ). Dance in general is basically all about intentional, precise movements, while ballet is especially known for this. Thus, for skaters like Max who are known for sloppy skating and lacking choreography--whether such a criticism is valid or not, because I'm not here to pass judgement on Max's skating--it's logical to turn to ballet to exhibit more intentionality and precision in their movements.

Based on his WTT scores, it seems to be working so far. I'm looking forward to seeing his programs develop further.

Hmm. I think there is some YMMV. Not everyone wants to see a program that's too precise, choreographed, planned-out, ect. There can be appeal in something more wild and organic. I see it as a balancing act--how to come across as refined (vs. sloppy), but at the same time, how to appear authentic rather than "my choreographer planned it."

Where exactly we draw the line depends on personal taste. And sometimes it's not a line--for me personally, it's a thick bar that covers a broad range. I can accept precise or wild depending on the choice of music, and how well it's executed (whether the effect is refinement or wild abandon matters less).

(Not debating your thesis with you! I guess I'm just... forming a thesis of my own! )

 

[el henry]

So I used this Max article in a paper I'm writing at the moment and sort of discussed this issue. Summing up my argument here (partially to see what people think, and partially because I think I'm right want to contribute to this discussion):

Being balletic to earn high PCS certainly isn't necessary. OTOH, exhibiting intentionality and precision in movement is necessary to receiving high PCS (at least theoretically, but not necessarily in judging practice ). Dance in general is basically all about intentional, precise movements, while ballet is especially known for this. Thus, for skaters like Max who are known for sloppy skating and lacking choreography--whether such a criticism is valid or not, because I'm not here to pass judgement on Max's skating--it's logical to turn to ballet to exhibit more intentionality and precision in their movements.

Based on his WTT scores, it seems to be working so far. I'm looking forward to seeing his programs develop further.

Now this does make sense to me. I was one who initially shook my head at these choices, having thought Max would do better with "athletic" and "powerful" and "fun". Having seen the programs, I give all credit to Max: he had the right idea. He is working, and working well, on those areas that everyone appears to love to criticize. Some elements need work (those spins?:hopelessness but I think Max can, and will, improve on them.

Most importantly, Max gave me the impression that *he* bought into the program. *He* wants to skate to this, far more than he wanted to skate to Footloose, which I in my wisdom thought would be a great program. I was wrong. So bring on the Pavorotti and Tchaikovsky remix...

 

[andromache]

Hmm. I think there is some YMMV. Not everyone wants to see a program that's too precise, choreographed, planned-out, ect. There can be appeal in something more wild and organic. I see it as a balancing act--how to come across as refined (vs. sloppy), but at the same time, how to appear authentic rather than "my choreographer planned it."

Where exactly we draw the line depends on personal taste. And sometimes it's not a line--for me personally, it's a thick bar that covers a broad range. I can accept precise or wild depending on the choice of music, and how well it's executed (whether the effect is refinement or wild abandon matters less).

(Not debating your thesis with you! I guess I'm just... forming a thesis of my own! )

Delivering an authentic performance is actually something I'm planning to address at some point! I hope my prof doesn't mind me borrowing from rhetorical theory to address the definitely non-rhetorical performance of figure skating...

Basically, by "intentionality and precision of movement" I mean movement which appears meaningful (i.e. appears totally different from how we shlump about in our everyday lives). Whether these movements contribute to an overall effect of refinement or wild abandon depends on the program as a whole. An extended leg is a precise and intentional movement that can contribute to any sort of overall effect. For a more specific example, I'd argue that Mao's Sochi LP footwork conveys a sense of wild abandon pretty well, though each individual movement within the footwork sequence is undeniably precise and intentional. OTOH, a bunch of crossovers do not generally appear to be precise or meaningful (unless they are perhaps well-executed and timed well with the music)--they're just a means to get from one place to another.

because writing seminar papers destroys me

 

[karne]

Everyone's focusing on the balletic nature of things, but ignoring that Phillip Mills is also known for complex choreography and transitions. Just watch at how much fewer crossovers and two foot gliding max has in black swans compared to West side Story or carmen or gladiator, when for half the program he would just skate across the ice gaining speed for his quads.

YES! To me this was the biggest thing. WSS, Carmen and Gladiator all had the same basic layout - the two big quads, then a spin, the step sequence, maybe a third jump. Then a big slow moment with a lot of breathing and posing, then off into the second half. Whereas with Black Swan, apart from a couple of pauses, he never stops.

Now this does make sense to me. I was one who initially shook my head at these choices, having thought Max would do better with "athletic" and "powerful" and "fun". Having seen the programs, I give all credit to Max: he had the right idea. He is working, and working well, on those areas that everyone appears to love to criticize. Some elements need work (those spins?:hopelessness but I think Max can, and will, improve on them.

This this this this :yay:

I think Max's spins will always be, on some level, a little bit :hopelessness:. But they're still pretty good basic spins. I am confident he will succeed.

 

[Warwick360]

And what does she have anything to do with this?

You know, I almost wouldn't mind if he kept the old Carmen costume for the Black Swan. As long as it has been thoroughly de-jinxed!

People have noted Park Soyoun for having balletic grace, yet this does not translate into her PCS score. That's the point I was trying to make. Isn't that why people try new things, in this case ballet, to get better point from the judges?

PS: it wasn't Liza I was going for. Whatever people might think, I still think the girl has musicality in her moves. Elena Radionova on the other hand.....(mind you I do prefer her Rachmaninoff over Kwan's but it may just be the ending layback)

 

[TMC]

Everyone's focusing on the balletic nature of things, but ignoring that Phillip Mills is also known for complex choreography and transitions. Just watch at how much fewer crossovers and two foot gliding max has in black swans compared to West side Story or carmen or gladiator, when for half the program he would just skate across the ice gaining speed for his quads.

Mills has added much more complex turns and full body movements, and it translates not just in performance/execution and skating skills, but in the transitions mark. It's a huge contrast to previous programs. (for any TSL fans, check out their IJS breakdown video of the transitions mark and listen to how they describe max's programs from two years ago... So different from black Swan.). I see a ton of potential for this program.

This is so true, I'm surprised it's not come up so much yet. Thank you!

The first time I saw the program, I loved it instantly. I was paying more attention to *please please stick those landings* but I was still left with the overall impression that there was somehow more of something/everything in that program.

On the second viewing I caught it: Much fewer crossovers / more turns, steps, movements. Also, his crossovers appear much smoother, longer, more deliberate instead of those quick, choppy hockey crossovers. (Perhaps his relative lack of speed was less due to running out of steam and more to do with retooling such basics as crossovers, turns, steps?)

For the past couple of seasons, maybe Max has stayed in his comfort zone. What he's doing now is not only brave, it's what he really wants to do - I don't doubt that he's truthful when he says that inside, he's an artist.

 

[Mathman]

I wish there were another word instead of "balletic" in play here. For me, it is hard to think of any figure skater who is balletic. In the men's division, after John Curry the list gets pretty short. Many skaters move gracefully to music, as do ballroom dancers, tap dancers, modern jazz dancers, square dancers, Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire. In the judging of skating competitions, I believe that the PCSs are pretty much keyed to the Skating Skills component.

 

[Interspectator]

I wish there were another word instead of "balletic" in play here. For me, it is hard to think of any figure skater who is balletic. In the men's division, after John Curry the list gets pretty short. Many skaters move gracefully to music, as do ballroom dancers, tap dancers, modern jazz dancers, square dancers, Gene Kelly and Fred Astaire. In the judging of skating competitions, I believe that the PCSs are pretty much keyed to the Skating Skills component.

Machida was very enamored of the balletic style of skating, and Lambiel too.
Imai Haruka is quite balletic...but you are right, it is more important to have great skating skills in the judges eyes.

 

[Mathman]

Machida was very enamored of the balletic style of skating, and Lambiel too...

Oh, I don't think so at all. I can recall only one exhibition number by Lambiel (I can't find it on YouTube now) that I would say owed anything in particular to ballet. Yes, he has good posture and carriage, he moves gracefully and conveys the spirit of the music. But these features are present in all forms of dance.

Here is Lambiel's masterpiece Poeta. It is a Flamenko!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iahKR6aa2d0

I think I would say the same about Machida. Wonderful sense of how to fill space with movement. Outstanding job of matching the technical elements to the structure of the music. Still, I would call it a figure skating triumph, rather than ballet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXGrxK6zES4

Ballet http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tte,_Kitri_-_Prix_de_Lausanne_2010-7_edit.jpg

(Photo credit: "Chenxin Liu - Don Quichotte, Kitri - Prix de Lausanne 2010-7 edit" by Fanny Schertzer.0

Figure skating http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Sasha_Cohen_Split_Jump.jpg

 

[Interspectator]

I guess so...it may be that various commentators have referred to them as balletic, or going for that style, that led me to see their skating in that way.

 

[Mathman]

I think people just use the word balletic to refer to any sort of graceful or lyrical movement.

 

[samm22]

Ballet http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...tte,_Kitri_-_Prix_de_Lausanne_2010-7_edit.jpg

(Photo credit: "Chenxin Liu - Don Quichotte, Kitri - Prix de Lausanne 2010-7 edit" by Fanny Schertzer.0

Figure skating http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Sasha_Cohen_Split_Jump.jpg

just saying... https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1a/23/0c/1a230c1c48e7fa09fa10609aaedf9892.jpg

I do feel that people use "balletic" to term all graceful, elegant movements that go with the music which is a problem, since certain skaters shy away from that style because of the "BALLET" label and never end up skating TO their music.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think we're straying into a new topic here. Balletic Movements and Figure Skating. Personally I find many posts regarding particular skaters being balletic fascinating.

I'm not sure what aspects Max is looking to incorporate into his skating but I would like to see a bit more smoothness to his overall execution. I feel like he is a bit forced in some of his movements which leads me to assume he isn't skating 100% naturally. I'd like to see a him just look a bit more comfortable if that makes any sense.

The whole balletic movements for PCS points. I don't buy it. I really don't think it will add points any more than if he incorporated training marshal arts and threw that stuff in. It really all comes down to how it's executed rather than what is executed.

I think So Youn's PCS troubles are simply because she isn't putting entire programs together without errors...well that and what I found to be poor music choice in her SP. She really never could deliver that program because it just isn't suited for her skating. For what it's worth...I don't see her as particularly striking me as being "balletic" YMMV.

I guess all I'm saying is the style of skating is less important than the delivery.