Ashley Wagner's coaching/choreography

[artsciboy]

I find her extroverted but her movement seems a bit robotic at times. She also visibly pumps herself up before some of the difficult jumps, and I find that a bit distracting. However, her programs don't require subtlety so that's why I think they play to her strengths. She doesn't try to be something she's not.

I disagree about Ashley's robotic-ness. Gracie on the other hand is stiff as a cardboard box. I actually get moved by Ashley's skating.

While Ashley isn't natural with the 3-3's, I actually think her solo jumps have great spring and run-out on the landings (in particular the 3flip, 3loop and 3lutz). I know everyone talks about how Gracie has such great jump technique - while I acknowledge that she doesn't underrotate, her jumps often have little flow and she lands on stiff knees.

In my mind, Ashley is really US' (and North America's) no. 1 lady and I hope she gets the appropriate recognition this upcoming season!

 

[skylark]

Here are the links to Awesome Ashley as interviewed in summer of 2013. Until I watched this, I hadn't thought about how unstable her Olympic year 2013-14 was, what with Mr. Nicks telling her that he wasn't going to travel anymore, to Sochi or anywhere. Her first phone call after that bomb was dropped was to Adam. He at some point advised her to call Rafael, and the rest is history. In retrospect, it's clear why she was shaken up. But it took a couple of years for her to understand Raf's ideas about technique, and that long for it not to be impossible for her to train like he wanted her to ... like a Russian 12-year-old! :luv17:

Each part is about 45 minutes long.

Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D39dmCQ2ciY

Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdFwnh-JB5o

 

[skylark]

I disagree about Ashley's robotic-ness. Gracie on the other hand is stiff as a cardboard box. I actually get moved by Ashley's skating.

While Ashley isn't natural with the 3-3's, I actually think her solo jumps have great spring and run-out on the landings (in particular the 3flip, 3loop and 3lutz). I know everyone talks about how Gracie has such great jump technique - while I acknowledge that she doesn't underrotate, her jumps often have little flow and she lands on stiff knees.

In my mind, Ashley is really US' (and North America's) no. 1 lady and I hope she gets the appropriate recognition this upcoming season!

I completely agree with everything you said! Ashley's jumps are beautiful; I love the spring she gets, the long run-out on the landings, and her gorgeous straight back. Lovely posture. Her 3loop just gives me chills every time.

 

[desertskates]

I haven't listened to the video yet, but when she retires from competition after 2018, I hope to see her interview about her past coaches and choreographers including John Nicks and Phillip Mills. That would be interesting.

I think what will also be interesting is to see if she actually retires in 2018. I can see her hanging in there for one more year, because that's just how Ashley rolls

 

[Karpenko]

Well yeah since you put it that way, she might even pull a Carolina Kostner next quad.

 

[theskatingbutterfly]

I disagree about Ashley's robotic-ness. Gracie on the other hand is stiff as a cardboard box. I actually get moved by Ashley's skating.

While Ashley isn't natural with the 3-3's, I actually think her solo jumps have great spring and run-out on the landings (in particular the 3flip, 3loop and 3lutz). I know everyone talks about how Gracie has such great jump technique - while I acknowledge that she doesn't underrotate, her jumps often have little flow and she lands on stiff knees.

In my mind, Ashley is really US' (and North America's) no. 1 lady and I hope she gets the appropriate recognition this upcoming season!

THANK YOU for saying that!! I have always felt that way but get shut down before I can even finish, and what you said is spot on. I actually think Gracie has dis-improved over the last few years and that's sad.
Ashley on the other hand, everything is getting better. She'll always have the facial expressions, that's her signature thing. But every year her jumps get better. Her technique is getting so solid and her jumps are fluid and smooth. It's a shame so many people are so blind to the changes she's made. It's something that made it so much sweeter when she won the silver at worlds though, made me proud of her.

 

[skylark]

THANK YOU for saying that!! I have always felt that way but get shut down before I can even finish, and what you said is spot on.

Exactly. It's strange to me, because these sorts of forums seem, to me, to be places for thoughtful conversation, but many times people are just repeating their opinions with little reference to the OP or the remark they're supposedly replying to.

Ashley on the other hand, everything is getting better. She'll always have the facial expressions, that's her signature thing. But every year her jumps get better. Her technique is getting so solid and her jumps are fluid and smooth.

This in bold is actually why I created this thread. It is the specifics of how she's made her jumps better, and also the specifics of how she's learned to create an environment for herself that's more supportive, that is interesting to me. The last part speaks to how she's made progress with her mental strength, how she competes, which was always her biggest obstacle.

In one of the interviews (not sure which one, sorry, but I think it's Oct. 2015) she said that Raf worked to give her technique that is calmer, getting the entrances into jumps smoother and with less force. That caught my "ear," because of what Tara said at the end of her Worlds FS, that everything in Ashley's program was so light and airy, and easy to enjoy.

It's a shame so many people are so blind to the changes she's made. It's something that made it so much sweeter when she won the silver at worlds though, made me proud of her.

Yeah, it's as though some people have their minds stuck in an out dated opinion of her. But there are lots of us who do uber her and are so proud of her.

Actually, I've finally progressed to the point that I feel a little sorry for people who are so stuck on counting URs and examining the lutz edge that they're getting a completely limited view, like looking at something under a microscope. They're not letting themselves see and feel the beauty of what she does so well. The whole picture. But the judges are; that's something. All year, even when she didn't skate clean, you could see from her marks that the judges would give her the marks if she would skate clean. And now, she hopefully will get the respect she deserves as the World Silver Medalist.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Exactly. It's strange to me, because these sorts of forums seem, to me, to be places for thoughtful conversation, but many times people are just repeating their opinions with little reference to the OP or the remark they're supposedly replying to.

Actually, I've finally progressed to the point that I feel a little sorry for people who are so stuck on counting URs and examining the lutz edge that they're getting a completely limited view, like looking at something under a microscope. They're not letting themselves see and feel the beauty of what she does so well. The whole picture. But the judges are; that's something. All year, even when she didn't skate clean, you could see from her marks that the judges would give her the marks if she would skate clean. And now, she hopefully will get the respect she deserves as the World Silver Medalist.

It's no secret that I am a big Ashley fan, so just because I think at times she looks robotic doesn't mean I'm not being thoughtful. She has weaknesses, like every other skater, but her team does an excellent job highlighting her strengths. The topic of the thread is her coaching and choreography, so whether her team is giving her the best chance to win (they are) is relevant.

As far as examining the programs under a microscope, these are competitive programs that have to be assessed against others. Many times I watch beautiful program that I enjoy, but still think they shouldn't win based on content. Ashley, to me, fully deserved the silver on her strong performance. I know others think she should have placed lower, but she performed the heck out of her LP and I'd give her the edge. She has been getting great PCS all year so I'm not sure that she wasn't already getting respect.

 

[skylark]

Ashley, to me, fully deserved the silver on her strong performance. I know others think she should have placed lower, but she performed the heck out of her LP and I'd give her the edge. She has been getting great PCS all year so I'm not sure that she wasn't already getting respect.

I agree, as I said above:

All year, even when she didn't skate clean, you could see from her marks that the judges would give her the marks if she would skate clean.

I just think she should get even MORE respect as the WSM. I'm also looking forward to her having a boost in her confidence as a result of her silver medal. I felt it was already showing at TCC.

 

[skateluvr]

I feel like Ashley is doing everything right to maximize her results, given her abilities. The jumps, especially the 3-3, don't come very naturally for her and she is somewhat limited in her artistic range. However, she fights for every landing and picks programs that showcase her strengths.

Are you kidding? If she is limited in her artistic range among female singles at the top the who pray tell is unlimited in your humble opinion????

And she is robotic???? Umm maybe you mean Satoko who never varies a step or facial expression from comp to comp. Ashley Robotic???

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Are you kidding? If she is limited in her artistic range among female singles at the top the who pray tell is unlimited in your humble opinion????

I can't tell if you're being serious. Mao has far more artistic range; are you really disputing that?

 

[artsciboy]

I can't tell if you're being serious. Mao has far more artistic range; are you really disputing that?

I actually think Ashley has wider range than most skaters - even Mao. She can do the warhorses (Spartacus, Samson & Delilah), more nuanced pieces (Pollock), rock (Shine on You Crazy Diamond), uber-dramatic (Moulin Rouge), classical (Black Swan), fun/flirty (Hip Hip Chin Chin), etc.

I like Mao, but she only really works when she's doing the soft, flowing operatic/piano/classical music. I suppose when she's trying the cute coquettish thing, it kind of works. When she tries the uber dramatic, I always find her body lacks the requisite tension - I can't see her doing a staccato tango piece or something like Hip Hip Chin Chin as effectively as Ashley. Her body is just too languid. I will refrain from commenting too much on the "dead in the face" thing she has going on. Again, beautiful skating skills...but limited range and expression in my opinion.

 

[R.D.]

Ashley, to me, fully deserved the silver [at 2016 Worlds] on her strong performance. I know others think she should have placed lower, but she performed the heck out of her LP and I'd give her the edge. She has been getting great PCS all year so I'm not sure that she wasn't already getting respect.

I would have been fine with a 3rd place finish, it was neck and neck between her and Pogo and honestly, it could have gone either way. The raucous Boston crowd was a true advantage and I think, ultimately, the difference-maker.

Nevertheless, definitely a podium-worthy effort (with Gold's mistakes).

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think she has a lot of range, although her lyrical/remorseful sides haven't been honed much; those were big missed opportunities with parts of her Spartacus and Pollock programs (both of those programs were SO much less than they should have been in general, particularly Spartacus).

I've loved Ashley Wagner ever since 2007 - the athletic prowess and spirited quality, combined with an expressive potential that makes me think of a combination of Marlene Dietrich and Bette Davis. She could have been such a star for this sport, but unfortunately she has NEVER had ideal programs and competitive strategies. 2012 Worlds should have been hers for the taking, that was a big missed opportunity, and she should have been able to medal at every Worlds+Olympics since then. She basically should have won all the medals that Carolina Kostner won from 2012-2014, plus a Silver at 2015 Worlds (possibly even 1st place because Tukt left the door open in the LP). If she had established herself so dominantly, she should have even been able to win 2016 Worlds as well (assuming she skated clean, also at the Grand Prix Final would have helped), because the judges wouldn't have felt the need to pump up Medvedeva's scores so high.

More than anyone else, Ashley to me had the potential to bring the sport back to the "Michelle Kwan level" - a much higher artistic realm, combined with a competitive consistency that further draws attention to the artistry and skating as a whole because of the athletic achievement. She's actually been a relatively consistent skater and I think many of the inconsistencies she has shown have been the direct result of this constant need to feel like she has to prove herself. If she actually had the best possible programs in 2012, and ever since then, everything would have been different. Her Black Swan was eventually a good program, but it could have been considerably better yet, from the very start of that season, and established her as a star and also as the definitive version of that music on ice.

I'm particularly annoyed about her Moulin Rouge, since that offered a unique opportunity with the lyrics being introduced to competition and could have been truly epic and marketable. Instead, it missed out on too many creative details and became too much of a routine, while even missing out on ways to maximize her scoring potential technically. Yeah, she's had success with it, but she could have had actual movie-star success with it; she could have had photo-ops with Nicole Kidman, a whole new spotlight being brought to skating. Ashley's success at 2016 Worlds, with the actual skating she did, only happened because of skating last after Gracie bombed. Ashley will never again score anywhere close to that high with 2 underrotations and a step-out of a jump, not while she continues to fall behind her artistic potential.

One detail I want to further criticize in her Moulin Rouge program is this part - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euO716g3TNs&t=3m2s - I am eternally disappointed that they cut away from one of the VERY BEST parts of the soundtrack. After the lyric goes "Why live life from dream to dream", it is SUPPOSED to continue on with a stunningly beautiful musical passage that has the lyric of "aaaand dread the day, when dreeeeeaaammmiiiiinnggg ends" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTzyIICRjP0&t=1m10s. Ashley's program, instead of tapping into this depth, just becomes kitschy. "The show must go on", according to her version of the program, simply because people need to keep putting on their make-up and looking pretty. That is apparently what defines life, rather than the MUCH more existentially involving thesis of the film and soundtrack, which is that of pushing forward in the face of death and the heart-rending feeling of love being lost.

 

[withwings]

THANK YOU for saying that!! I have always felt that way but get shut down before I can even finish, and what you said is spot on. I actually think Gracie has dis-improved over the last few years and that's sad.
Ashley on the other hand, everything is getting better. She'll always have the facial expressions, that's her signature thing. But every year her jumps get better. Her technique is getting so solid and her jumps are fluid and smooth. It's a shame so many people are so blind to the changes she's made. It's something that made it so much sweeter when she won the silver at worlds though, made me proud of her.

And Ashley never ever has been over scored in PCS, while Gracie's PCS are over scored most of the time. Gracie is favored from the judges and it is seen even with a naked eye.

- - - Updated - - -

I think she has a lot of range, although her lyrical/remorseful sides haven't been honed much; those were big missed opportunities with parts of her Spartacus and Pollock programs (both of those programs were SO much less than they should have been in general, particularly Spartacus).

I've loved Ashley Wagner ever since 2007 - the athletic prowess and spirited quality, combined with an expressive potential that makes me think of a combination of Marlene Dietrich and Bette Davis. She could have been such a star for this sport, but unfortunately she has NEVER had ideal programs and competitive strategies. 2012 Worlds should have been hers for the taking, that was a big missed opportunity, and she should have been able to medal at every Worlds+Olympics since then. She basically should have won all the medals that Carolina Kostner won from 2012-2014, plus a Silver at 2015 Worlds (possibly even 1st place because Tukt left the door open in the LP). If she had established herself so dominantly, she should have even been able to win 2016 Worlds as well (assuming she skated clean, also at the Grand Prix Final would have helped), because the judges wouldn't have felt the need to pump up Medvedeva's scores so high.

More than anyone else, Ashley to me had the potential to bring the sport back to the "Michelle Kwan level" - a much higher artistic realm, combined with a competitive consistency that further draws attention to the artistry and skating as a whole because of the athletic achievement. She's actually been a relatively consistent skater and I think many of the inconsistencies she has shown have been the direct result of this constant need to feel like she has to prove herself. If she actually had the best possible programs in 2012, and ever since then, everything would have been different. Her Black Swan was eventually a good program, but it could have been considerably better yet, from the very start of that season, and established her as a star and also as the definitive version of that music on ice.

I'm particularly annoyed about her Moulin Rouge, since that offered a unique opportunity with the lyrics being introduced to competition and could have been truly epic and marketable. Instead, it missed out on too many creative details and became too much of a routine, while even missing out on ways to maximize her scoring potential technically. Yeah, she's had success with it, but she could have had actual movie-star success with it; she could have had photo-ops with Nicole Kidman, a whole new spotlight being brought to skating. Ashley's success at 2016 Worlds, with the actual skating she did, only happened because of skating last after Gracie bombed. Ashley will never again score anywhere close to that high with 2 underrotations and a step-out of a jump, not while she continues to fall behind her artistic potential.

One detail I want to further criticize in her Moulin Rouge program is this part - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euO716g3TNs&t=3m2s - I am eternally disappointed that they cut away from one of the VERY BEST parts of the soundtrack. After the lyric goes "Why live life from dream to dream", it is SUPPOSED to continue on with a stunningly beautiful musical passage that has the lyric of "aaaand dread the day, when dreeeeeaaammmiiiiinnggg ends" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTzyIICRjP0&t=1m10s. Ashley's program, instead of tapping into this depth, just becomes kitschy. "The show must go on", according to her version of the program, simply because people need to keep putting on their make-up and looking pretty. That is apparently what defines life, rather than the MUCH more existentially involving thesis of the film and soundtrack, which is that of pushing forward in the face of death and the heart-rending feeling of love being lost.

Agree!

 

[R.D.]

I've loved Ashley Wagner ever since 2007 ... She could have been such a star for this sport, but unfortunately she has NEVER had ideal programs and competitive strategies.

I don't agree - I think in many ways, she has actually overachieved.

Yes, she could have (and should have, frankly) done better at 2012 and 2015 Worlds, but based on her early years, at best she was constrained to lower top 10 status. I don't think anyone thought at the time she'd stick around for as long as she has, or that she would reach this level of success this late in her career, if ever. Most of her career has been spent under the shadow of someone else hyped to the stars by the US media...

Wagner's career trajectory is in stark contrast to the typical US female skater career - if the world medal happens, it's typically within the first 3-4 years of coming on the scene. In Wagner's case it took more than double that time...and as a reference, for Gracie Gold, next season would be Year 5.

Ashley's success at 2016 Worlds, with the actual skating she did, only happened because of skating last after Gracie bombed. Ashley will never again score anywhere close to that high with 2 underrotations and a step-out of a jump...

This I agree with, however.

 

[skylark]

And Ashley never ever has been over scored in PCS, while Gracie's PCS are over scored most of the time. Gracie is favored from the judges and it is seen even with a naked eye.

That is the naked truth!

 

[skylark]

I actually think Ashley has wider range than most skaters - even Mao. She can do the warhorses (Spartacus, Samson & Delilah), more nuanced pieces (Pollock), rock (Shine on You Crazy Diamond), uber-dramatic (Moulin Rouge), classical (Black Swan), fun/flirty (Hip Hip Chin Chin), etc.

I like Mao, but she only really works when she's doing the soft, flowing operatic/piano/classical music. I suppose when she's trying the cute coquettish thing, it kind of works. When she tries the uber dramatic, I always find her body lacks the requisite tension - I can't see her doing a staccato tango piece or something like Hip Hip Chin Chin as effectively as Ashley. Her body is just too languid. I will refrain from commenting too much on the "dead in the face" thing she has going on. Again, beautiful skating skills...but limited range and expression in my opinion.

You articulated things in your second paragraph that I completely agree with and have always felt. Well said and

I was looking at 2014 Worlds protocols the other day. I noticed that Mao, who won the championship, had 3 URs and an edge call on her lutz in the FS. It made me wonder whether there was the hue and cry about her winning with those errors. Such as there was here about Ashley winning the world silver, which she totally earned and deserved, with only 2 UR and a ! on her lutz.

Mao won that FS on her component scores. Ashley won the 2016 silver because of her component scores, yet many people dismiss her because of it.

 

[skylark]

I've loved Ashley Wagner ever since 2007 - the athletic prowess and spirited quality, combined with an expressive potential that makes me think of a combination of Marlene Dietrich and Bette Davis. She could have been such a star for this sport, but unfortunately she has NEVER had ideal programs and competitive strategies. 2012 Worlds should have been hers for the taking, that was a big missed opportunity, and she should have been able to medal at every Worlds+Olympics since then. She basically should have won all the medals that Carolina Kostner won from 2012-2014, plus a Silver at 2015 Worlds (possibly even 1st place because Tukt left the door open in the LP). If she had established herself so dominantly, she should have even been able to win 2016 Worlds as well (assuming she skated clean, also at the Grand Prix Final would have helped), because the judges wouldn't have felt the need to pump up Medvedeva's scores so high.

More than anyone else, Ashley to me had the potential to bring the sport back to the "Michelle Kwan level" - a much higher artistic realm, combined with a competitive consistency that further draws attention to the artistry and skating as a whole because of the athletic achievement. She's actually been a relatively consistent skater and I think many of the inconsistencies she has shown have been the direct result of this constant need to feel like she has to prove herself. If she actually had the best possible programs in 2012, and ever since then, everything would have been different. Her Black Swan was eventually a good program, but it could have been considerably better yet, from the very start of that season, and established her as a star and also as the definitive version of that music on ice.

If Ashley's father had been stationed in California near John Nicks when she was 12, so that she could have had the benefit of a top coach politically, technically, and choreographically, (as Michelle had with Frank) ... then everything you've said might have been possible.

But Ashley lives in the world of reality. And rather than giving up, she's kept on working on each of the elements that she could possibly build and improve on. It wasn't easy for her to assert herself when she wanted to work with Shae-Lynne. It wasn't easy to move across the country by herself at 19 and try again when she hadn't met her potential in 2010 and 2011.

And it sure as heck wasn't easy to meet the physical demands of changing the technique on her jumps that Rafael implemented over years of work, in her twenties. Most girls find it difficult to change their technique even at the ages of 15 or 16.

 

[russianbratz]

Ashley has been overscored in PCS since the 2014-15 season. The only reason she gets high PCS is because she's the oldest. She waged a pretty heavy handed PR campaign about how she's a better "performer" because she's older and has had boyfriends or whatever. Apparently it worked. Her fundamental skating skills are just not that great, but with a post-Sochi vacuum, she was able to get a boost in PCS based on politics.