Gracie Gold debated skipping Grand Prix

[OS]

Oh ye of lil faith... stop doubting. (That's including you Team Gracie!) Sheesh... winning or losing, this is Skate America. You should be on Mao / NHK PCS range. Propa safe love...

 

[TGee]

TGee, my sense is that you are extremely well-informed regarding all things related to the inner workings of Skate Canada [the federation, as well as SCI], Canadian skating/skaters, etc. I say that with admiration.
It also is my sense (and I hope that I am not being unfair) that you would not claim to be as well-informed in general regarding USFS and U.S. skating/skaters.

If it makes you happy to hold up Slipchuk as the gold standard, my response is that the scope of my knowledge about both Slipchuk and Moyer is insufficient to make a valid comparison.
And I would venture to suggest that your knowledge of the inner workings of USFS (incl. Moyer's hands-on activities) perhaps is insufficient to make a valid judgment as to what USFS/Moyer are or are not doing.

I am by no means diminishing Slipchuk's role. (A random vivid memory for me is Slipchuk at the boards with MZ when Tessa's pain required V/M to pause during their 2011 Four Continents FD and to quickly confer as to whether they would withdraw -- and the sound of Scott's voice asking for "Mike, Mike ..." to run interference when a cameraperson was becoming overly aggressive. Slipchuk immediately and literally did step in.)
Just sayin' that both you (I am guessing?) and I don't know all that much about Moyer one way or the other.
AFAIK, the most recent high-profile mention of USFS/Moyer playing an matchmaking role was for the new (and very promising) pair partnership of Ashley Cain and Tim LeDuc.
But I do recall that over the years, U.S. skaters sometimes have brought up Moyer's name in interviews -- to credit him for having significant and positive influence on their skating. Another random memory that sticks in my mind is that one of Sammi Cesario's most successful programs was the result of guidance from MM. IIRC, she was talking about her Carmen program -- originally was hesitant and/or reluctant to use the music, but ultimately was convinced by MM's strong advocacy that it would be a good choice for her.

Regarding Gracie's tryout with Frank, my point was/is that MM's matchmaking role was well-documented -- and that it was not a matter of hearsay or mere gossip. I didn't take it as grandstanding.

---

As for the idea being pushed by Dave Lease that MZ could be a national team coordinator for the U.S., she would not be the right choice, IMO.

During the last few years, USFS has had Frank travel around to mentor senior and junior skaters (singles and pairs; not sure about dance) as well as coaches. If Frank were interested, I think he would be a viable choice.

Didn't intend to come across as setting up Mike as a gold standard, but rather to follow the GS guidelines .... indicating what I know or observe from my perspective as a parent of young skaters, and what would expect to happen based on that. My kids aren't at a level that Mike is involved, but like you I've seen him around as he keeps close to the Canadians...

It seems that coach - skater diplomacy and protocols and the requirements for engaging and changing coaches are strongly emphasized here, especially at our club. It was part of the standard orientation presentation that all the parents got when our kids moved up from basic skating. We've had to navigate a coaching change already for one of our kids so the rules were reinforced by that.

More generally, parents are encouraged to inform themselves through Skate Canada resources so I do that. Especially since the system has been updated from basic skating up within this quadrennial.

So I am surprized based on the emphasis on privacy and discretion here, and am just saying it's unexpected. And in my opinion, the public discussion of the process isn't in the interest of the skaters, or their federations. I've commented similarly about Mishin's "offer" through the media to help Patrick Chan and the recent tabloid mediated "proposal" to Yulia Lipnitskaya.

But it's great to hear that a number of your elite skaters have said that USFSA's HP director has helped them....and brings me back to the question of what else might be getting in the way of Gracie making the changes that would help her reach her goals, rather than musing about retirement.

 

[stella luna]

I expect she will mess up SA a lot. But no worries, she has had too many bad competitions, just enduring another bad one doesn't kill her. Maybe she will slowly find a better mindset and will peak by Olympic.

She doesn't inspire confidence in her interviews, that's for sure. Girl does not know how to trash talk!

 

[MK's Winter]

In order for that to happen ("her Maria B moment") the USFSA would have to stop treating her as defacto #1 and hardcore politiking her at every event. Maria's federation had zero confidence in her and she fought tooth and nail for herself. She was lucky the stars lined up for her for a short period of time when Irina was gone (notice how fast she declined after Irina came back). If anything Ashley is the one you can compare Maria to. Gracie is a Nancy Kerrigan. Treated as "THE ONE" by the fed., all the pressure to carry the legacy, not fitting into the box they try to place her in, and struggling with nerves. Boston could be her "I want to die" moment, time will tell. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Sk7yBYl8c skip to 8:45. She could learn a lot from Nancy

ITA. I am happy someone else recognized this. The USFSA was quick to make Gracie America's sweetheart. Ashley said in her interview that she had time to come up without being swallowed by the media (and sited Mirai). As soon as Nancy won that Bronze in Albertville- she went from Kristi's shadow to center spotlight. With Kristi's retirement Nancy became the chosen one. Gracie didn't event have shadow time. I know retired skaters will sometimes mentor current skaters- I think Nancy would be the perfect mentor for Gracie. Even if it was just through phone calls or Skype.

 

[KatGrace1925]

Gracie may have fallen at Skate America but she looked more relaxed to me than ever before. That may just be me but I think she'll have a better season because she's not worried so much about winning or loosing.

 

[yyyskate]

I have to to say that Gracie's 3flip landing or fall is right on the pounding of music. So dynamic and impactful.
Wish she can pull it off once this season. actually wish she can pull off her SP once this season. it is really a great SP.

Edit: acctually it is not landing, but toe pick of that 3flip is matching pounding of music, Love it even more!.

 

[ice coverage]

... So I am surprized based on the emphasis on privacy and discretion here, and am just saying it's unexpected. ...

But it's great to hear that a number of your elite skaters have said that USFSA's HP director has helped them....

If you are dwelling on my mention of press coverage of Moyer's role re Gracie and Frank, then you are missing the point of what I have been saying.
Again, I merely was trying to make note that in that case Moyer's role was well-established -- not just a matter of gossip or hearsay or rumor.

And I feel the need to emphasize that MM did not approach Frank until after Gracie already had left her previous coach.

Ashley Cain is the one who announced that she and LeDuc had joined forces as a new pair. After it was a fait accompli, an IN article later was published in which Ashley thanked USFS, MM, and Justin Dillon for helping the new partnership come about.

I believe that most of what MM does takes place quietly and under the radar. I believe that privacy and discretion are the USFS norm esp. regarding its ad hoc involvement with individual skaters.
Thus I tend to be amused whenever I read posts on GS suggesting (or even agitating/complaining) that USFS really should be doing A and B and C, etc. I myself have no way of knowing whether USFS already is quietly doing A, B, C, and more. I think the same is true for most GS members.
I am an optimist, so I give USFS the benefit of the doubt that the odds are at least 50/50 that it already is doing A, B, C, etc.

My belief is that USFS keeps pretty close tabs on Gracie (among other skaters) and continues to be more than ready/able/willing to help her with any coaching issues -- and with any issues of any kind.
My humble opinion is that I am not convinced that switching from Frank to another coach would be beneficial to Gracie. Just my two cents.

 

[andromache]

Gracie obviously didn't have the best SP of her life last night, but it wasn't her worst one. A UR fall is better than a double, right?

And I'm relieved she's not in first after the SP - it might mean we can expect a decent LP.

I'm just glad that she didn't seem to be too down on herself afterwards. She and Frank both looked relatively satisfied with the performance - perhaps it's what they expected given her time off this summer?

I HATE that they're doing the 3F though. Hate hate hate it. Desperately hoping that by the Olympic year they'll go back to the loop. Heck, going from Gracie's demon jump back to the loop would probably give her a major confidence boost, right?

 

[Layback11]

Gracie obviously didn't have the best SP of her life last night, but it wasn't her worst one. A UR fall is better than a double, right?

And I'm relieved she's not in first after the SP - it might mean we can expect a decent LP.

I'm just glad that she didn't seem to be too down on herself afterwards. She and Frank both looked relatively satisfied with the performance - perhaps it's what they expected given her time off this summer?

I HATE that they're doing the 3F though. Hate hate hate it. Desperately hoping that by the Olympic year they'll go back to the loop. Heck, going from Gracie's demon jump back to the loop would probably give her a major confidence boost, right?

I agree. It obviously could've been better, but it was SO much better than it could've been. Beautiful combo, no invalidated elements, and I thought her performance of the program was quite good. (Good call on her team's part to go with a relatively "cold" theme/piece that doesn't require a ton of emotion; I looked up the summary of the movie her music is from and it seems like her performance conveyed the story of that piece quite well. When she's playing a glamorous assassin, intense stone-face kind of works. )

Now here's hoping for a great performance of Daphnis et Chloé later today! :yes:

 

[yyyskate]

Gracie obviously didn't have the best SP of her life last night, but it wasn't her worst one. A UR fall is better than a double, right?

And I'm relieved she's not in first after the SP - it might mean we can expect a decent LP.

I'm just glad that she didn't seem to be too down on herself afterwards. She and Frank both looked relatively satisfied with the performance - perhaps it's what they expected given her time off this summer?

I HATE that they're doing the 3F though. Hate hate hate it. Desperately hoping that by the Olympic year they'll go back to the loop. Heck, going from Gracie's demon jump back to the loop would probably give her a major confidence boost, right?

I like the musicality/impact of that 3F though(especially in this program). it is hard to pull that off with a loop jump. lutz and Flip are those jumps really fly.

 

[Vickys21]

Gracie may have fallen at Skate America but she looked more relaxed to me than ever before. That may just be me but I think she'll have a better season because she's not worried so much about winning or loosing.

Gracie still did look very nervous in my opinion. She was taking a long time at the end of the warm-up to re-tie her skates and was nervously constantly readjusting her outfit while having a pep talk with Frank. Her eyes kept wondering around without a calm focus in them. Even after the skate, she looked tight and checked her earings on both ears. Look at Mai Mihara before her skate and you will see in comparison how relaxed and confident she looked before her skate.

 

[KatGrace1925]

Gracie still did look very nervous in my opinion. She was taking a long time at the end of the warm-up to re-tie her skates and was nervously constantly readjusting her outfit while having a pep talk with Frank. Her eyes kept wondering around without a calm focus in them. Even after the skate, she looked tight and checked her earings on both ears. Look at Mai Mihara before her skate and you will see in comparison how relaxed and confident she looked before her skate.

I didn't watch any of the before, just the skate. To me she didn't look stiff or fearful during the skate, she seemed more at home on the ice than I've seen her in awhile. I feel like loosing worlds might be a good thing for her, so that she can evaluate why she is here and find motivation to win. I think she's going to be just fine.

 

[desertskates]

Despite the fall, I do agree that it could have been so much worse. I see the musical impact that the flip would have here, but I really wish they would just return to the loop. I think getting some clean short programs out there would do wonders for her mindset. The combo was great, and thought I personally prefer El Choclo to this short, it is a well done program. Really hope she put out a solid long program. The music and choreography are gorgeous, I'm excited to see it with her staying off her bum!

 

[stella luna]

It de-motivated her because she didn't skate that much over the summer.

I didn't watch any of the before, just the skate. To me she didn't look stiff or fearful during the skate, she seemed more at home on the ice than I've seen her in awhile. I feel like loosing worlds might be a good thing for her, so that she can evaluate why she is here and find motivation to win. I think she's going to be just fine.

 

[TGee]

If you are dwelling on my mention of press coverage of Moyer's role re Gracie and Frank, then you are missing the point of what I have been saying.
Again, I merely was trying to make note that in that case Moyer's role was well-established -- not just a matter of gossip or hearsay or rumor.

And I feel the need to emphasize that MM did not approach Frank until after Gracie already had left her previous coach.

Ashley Cain is the one who announced that she and LeDuc had joined forces as a new pair. After it was a fait accompli, an IN article later was published in which Ashley thanked USFS, MM, and Justin Dillon for helping the new partnership come about.

I believe that most of what MM does takes place quietly and under the radar. I believe that privacy and discretion is the USFS norm esp. regarding its ad hoc involvement with individual skaters.
Thus I tend to be amused whenever I read posts on GS suggesting (or even agitating/complaining) that USFS really should be doing A and B and C, etc. I myself have no way of knowing whether USFS already is quietly doing A, B, C, and more. I think the same is true for most GS members.
I am an optimist, so I give USFS the benefit of the doubt that the odds are at least 50/50 that it already is doing A, B, C, etc.

My belief is that USFS keeps pretty close tabs on Gracie (among other skaters) and continues to be more than ready/able/willing to help her with any coaching issues -- and with any issues of any kind.
My humble opinion is that I am not convinced that switching from Frank to another coach would be beneficial to Gracie. Just my two cents.

You know, I don't think we're really that far apart.....and I understand where you are coming from. We're both trying to be neutral and clear about what evidence is out there to support our analysis. And neither of us was intending to make more of it than that.

My original comments on the USFSA were originally the third thought after finding it strange that there was so much speculation about Gracie retiring....

I actually wondered first about what might be getting in the way of her making the changes she seems to need to be successful. And those barriers could be within her, her family, her coaching situation or lastly within the broader system of support of her national federation.

Sincere questions. But posing those wouldn't mean that I'd expect to see the process be transparent in the media.

I actually really like her and see a lot of potential in her. And I get impatient with folks who refer to skaters as "head cases" or make remarks about how they need to get their acts together and just do it.

And the coaching situation can often be an issue in these situations. But meanwhile the athletes seem to be subject to arm chair diagnoses of mental health issues. Something that works well at one point in an athlete's development may be at minimum a bad fit that doesn't address the athlete's current gaps, and at worst toxic. Hard to know from the outside, but am just wondering why, when GS posters have been so quick to suggest coaches were the issue in similar situations, why it wasn't coming up for Gracie.

I suspect that most of us don't really know or can even really imagine what it would be like to be a young women in her late teens heading into twenties with the public profile and pressure on they face. So whether it's Yulia, Gracie or Alaine, my thoughts go out not just to them, but to the systems of support around them. As a fan, I see great potential in all three and would like to see all of them fulfil it.

 

[TGee]

Gracie still did look very nervous in my opinion. She was taking a long time at the end of the warm-up to re-tie her skates and was nervously constantly readjusting her outfit while having a pep talk with Frank. Her eyes kept wondering around without a calm focus in them. Even after the skate, she looked tight and checked her earings on both ears. Look at Mai Mihara before her skate and you will see in comparison how relaxed and confident she looked before her skate.

Can't say that I've seen enough of Gracie's skates to be able to say more or less than usual.

But I can say that she looked stressed and so did Frank. It was the inside kind of quiet stress, but she looked very tight just after the warm up when she was at the boards with Frank before the skate. And I can say that he looked uncharacteristically stressed. He was not looking full of confidence for her. He didn't just have his game face on, he appeared anxious for both of them.

All that said however, I do believe that she skated very well, especially as she did not do the Challenger series. I don't think she has anything to regret in that skate at this point in the season. It must put enormous pressure on the US team to be the hosts of the first GP of the season almost every year and then meet the expectations of the American public.

 

[KatGrace1925]

It de-motivated her because she didn't skate that much over the summer.

Sometimes you need a break to decide why you are doing something. I think that break might be something that really helps her in the future. She isn't as stiff and focused on being 100% perfect, I think that could be a good thing for her.

 

[yyyskate]

I like Gracie's dress, hair accessory and makeup. All true to the theme of music. I also love the opening choreo sequence of her long. Hope, with more practice, she will get her jumps again.
I kinda dislike the gut feeling I have when watching Gracie interact with Frank though. Dont know will it work or not. But that is definitely not a self assured competitor's mentality or pep talk should have at the beginning of your performance.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Well for starters Frank needs to STOP telling Gracie to "do your job" (or something like that) right before she leaves the boards for her performance. That simple comment alone adds a ton of pressure and that's the very last thing she needs at this moment. At this point she needs to rediscover her love for skating and calling it a "job" (even if it kind of is) doesn't help the matter.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Can't say that I've seen enough of Gracie's skates to be able to say more or less than usual.

But I can say that she looked stressed and so did Frank. It was the inside kind of quiet stress, but she looked very tight just after the warm up when she was at the boards with Frank before the skate. And I can say that he looked uncharacteristically stressed. He was not looking full of confidence for her. He didn't just have his game face on, he appeared anxious for both of them.

All that said however, I do believe that she skated very well, especially as she did not do the Challenger series. I don't think she has anything to regret in that skate at this point in the season. It must put enormous pressure on the US team to be the hosts of the first GP of the season almost every year and then meet the expectations of the American public.

It sounds like this is the beginning of the end of their partnership. Almost at the point, if not already there, where one has to fire the other, right?