Half of World Top Ten Out of Ladies Worlds

[venx]

In any event, posters are right: we have this discussion year after year and it won't change. Change the GP rules you like, or not, I don't mind some other venue for the "best", but Worlds and Olympics are for the entire World, not just those countries who happen to have the best skaters at the best time. Thank heavens.:yes:

Actually, with Alexander Lakernik taking over FS reins at ISU and with some support from the community, I believe we might be able to push it through. Of course the cause needs proper strategy and good PR for the idea. :yes:

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

......Worlds and Olympics are for the entire World, not just those countries who happen to have the best skaters at the best time. Thank heavens.:yes:

I agree that the Olympics are intended for the entire world but where is it written that the figure skating world championships are as such? I can find an Olympic statement on the matter. Has the ISU declared it as such? Is it spelled out that it's for the world and free of the phrase "best" in the world? I'm asking you honestly since you seem so declarative.

"The goal of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practised without discrimination of any kind, in a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play."

Plenty of sports use their world championships to determine the best in the world and still maintain growth in developing countries thru invites and various other means. Ways that are arguably more effective then getting destroyed by the competition at the championship.

 

[icellist]

I brought this up a few years ago. But I'm pretty happy with the system to get 2 spots. Getting 3 spots is pretty hard (I'd be happy with the combined 13 placement if there was the clause that if there are 3 entrants, and all are in the top 10, 3 spots are still awarded because of the great US men's performances last year).

But after 4CC, Euros and countries submit their entries, the ISU can front their own "worlds" team out of the top 24 SB skaters. With 3 spots in each disciplines. The placements of these skaters are purely for themselves/ISU and are left out of the calculation from the combined 13 placement. So if an invited ISU skater is 12th at worlds, the 13th skater at worlds has 12 points toward the calculated 13 total.

So this season at worlds Team ISU would be:
Radionova, Nagasu, Tuktamysheva
Mura, Voronov, Aaron
Peng/Jin, Astakhova/Rogonov, Castelli/Tran
Ilynkh/Zhiganshin, Hawayek/Baker, Zahorski/Gurreiro

so it mainly benefits the Russians this season but it benefits individuals over countries in this case especially in deep fields like Canada/China in pairs, US in dance, Russia in ladies

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

^That would be awesome!!!!

 

[uhh]

People agitating for an extra spot for Russian ladies, or US ice dance or whatever - can you ever point to a situation where someone who was a genuine medal threat was left off the world team? Because I can't think of one in the last 10 years or so. Plenty of examples of skaters, like Liza last year or Elena this year who in previous years had shown the ability to be on the podium, but who are off the pace in the current season. Maybe you could argue for the Japanese men between 2010-2014, when you had Takahashi, Hanyu, Oda, Kozuka, & in later years Machida, who could all on their day throw down performances that could medal - but lots of them were so inconsistent that they could just as easily end up in 15th. And with US ice dance, or Canadian pairs, the 4th team who gets left behind (I'm thinking of H/B & M-T/M here), sure they are teams that can cut it with those that end up finishing 12th-7th in the World, but they aren't going to be threatening the eventual winners. So what is really being lost by not having them at Worlds?

As shiroKJ said, the ISU would never open up the fields - they don't want a huge event. The technical minimums & the end of the Qualifying Round were designed to make the ISU Championships smaller, more efficient & cheaper to run. So if you were to add more spots for the big countries, it would mean that the same number of spots would be taken from countries that would otherwise only be qualifying 1 skater per discipline.

@Sam-Skwantch firstly, the clue about who the world championships is for is in the name... Secondly, even if it's not explicitly spelled out in reference to the WC, the ISU has a responsibility to all it's member federations, not just the big ones. Thirdly, in reference to the Olympics, Olympic sports have to show throughout their 4 year cycle that it's not just a sport dominated by a handful of countries, but that they are encouraging participation & competitiveness across the globe. Would be interested in hearing which other World Championship formats you are thinking of, because every sport I can think of - gym, athletics, swimming, skiing, curling, cycling etc etc - limits the number athletes each nation can send.

 

[mrrice]

The ISU is all about cutting down the # of participants and total time in order to save $ (even the extra 30 seconds for skaters to get into start position). So in order for that one special skater/team (which let be real, if you make an exception for one, you'll have to make an exception for many) to get a spot, someone on the bottom of the list will get cut and that's the inevitable truth.

This is closest to how I feel. You also have to remember that there are ways around the system. Look at Tatiana Malinina, She was born in Russia and skated for Uzbekistan. Think of a skater like Angela Wang. She has always been in the top 10 but has unfortunately, missed the Podium here in her home country. I guess she could move to Guam (I used to live there) and become a citizen and skate for them. I guess if you really love skating, and have the money, you could do something like that.

The problem comes when the skaters from these small countries get to Worlds. The Russian, Japanese, Canadian, and US skaters will STILL be at Worlds. There are limitations as to how many skaters can participate due to time and budget concerns. These big Arena's are often booked solid and once you add skaters to every event, time becomes a problem. Broadcasts of events are already chopped to bits as it is. There is a very good chance that these skaters won't make the free program cutoff. I think the smarter course of action is to do what Brendan Kerry is doing. Keep your Citizenship and travel to a good coach. IF you can afford it.

 

[lappo]

I agree that the Olympics are intended for the entire world but where is it written that the figure skating world championships are as such?

Nomen omen?

 

[Alex D]

Well, if you invested any time yourselves to read my short post, you would've found I didn't write a single word or slightest suggestion about stripping small nations of being at Worlds.

You want more Spots for rRussian ladies, which automatically leads to more for Japan cCanada and US.

If we then do this with each competition, then we have about 16 more at theseeEvents which ccan be as much as 1/3 more competitors.

To realize this, someone hasto give up his or her spot, else it can'twork.

You see your mistake now?

 

[TT_Fin]

Remember it is the same in almost all sports in WC and olympics, not just figure skating; 3-4 spots to each country, depending on the type of sport. Maybe somebody already wrote it, I was too lazy to check all posts out. It is the idea of international competitions, to give opportunity to skaters and athletes from as many countries as possible to take part. Small federations loose their interest soon, if there is no international success and there will be not, if nobody can go to bigger competitions. Finland already has lost it; only the worlds hold in Finland have now made given visibility to figure skating. National TV did not show anything expect Finland Trophy in autumn, and from Euros mostly small summaries. It is difficult question. Probably it would go to way that small federations will arrange their own competitions and there will several federations like ISU having their own worlds etc.

 

[Skater Boy]

@Sam:

I totally see your perspective even though I disagree with it. Unfortunately, a lot of people here aren't as nice or discursively constructive as you, and really only seem more interested in more spots for Russian ladies / less spots for smaller countries than in revamping how spots are allocated more generally.

I think US ice dance suffers as much, if not more than, the Russian ladies because of how Worlds spots are allocated. At least Russian ladies can really fight one another for those three spots. The wait-your-turn view that still rules ice dance + clear rankings of teams as #1 US team, #2 US team, etc means it'll probably be a few years before the former and current World Junior Champs get to go to senior worlds (H/B, M/C, not to mention Parsons). And even if all these team did get to compete at, say, next year's senior Worlds because the ISU decided your allocation of spots would be most fair, the US #4 and #5 teams would probably find themselves below several other countries' #1 teams, even if they had in fact outskated those teams.

It's not only an ice dance problem, either. This season, many fans have perceived Anna receiving lower scores than deserved in order to preserve the ranking (keeping #2 Russian below #1 Japanese, for example) and there have been worries that because Ashley did not win Nationals, her status as US #1 will have been changed and she will receive lower scores st Worlds as a result.

Basically, in a perfect world those little flags next to skaters' names don't mean much because the country and federation they represent, but those flags determine a lot. Deciding who competes based on merit rather than country is nice, but those end results are still going to be partially determined by country, and the more competitors you have from a single country, the more the so-called "merit based" results will wind up distorted.

It is such a toss up. We want the best skaters to be at worlds but we also want to develop skaters especially from nations which may have more challenges for whatever reason - it seems if you are good you will rise to the top - although then again one can argue it helps if ou have resources, reputation and some luck too.

I would like us to have our cake and eat it - more top skaters regardless of country and developing or an international flair. It is kind of sad when top ranked skaters regardless of nation can't go because in this particular year they have a lot of top world skaters.

It is sad that a Grand Prix skater can't go to worlds in some ways. I know you can say their fault for not making the spot on their team but... when there is so much depth.

Sadly whether we like it or not, a nation like India or Brazil for example might really have someone who is the best skater(s) but because of resources - lack of both financially, coaches, ice time, choreographers that skater might not reach their true full potential BUT that can be said in life. It isn't fair and I don't have the answer - if I did we would have world peace, Donald Trump would play nicely and we would live in a fair, just and humane world.

 

[kresslia]

I agree that the Olympics are intended for the entire world but where is it written that the figure skating world championships are as such? :

Well, you see... it's right in the title.

 

[Violet Bliss]

About the "argument" -- well, there really isn't one. The ISU is composed of a slew of member federations. They each get one vote on proposed changes in the conduct of competitions. The deal is, if you join the ISU and pay your dues, one thing you get is the right to send your national champion to the world championships. (I am a little surprised that the federations even went along with the required minimum rule -- what if Yao Bin and his partner had not been allowed to skate in the 1980 world championships (finishing last). China would not have become a pairs powerhouse.)

It was exactly because Yao got to compete internationally and finished at the bottom every single time that he became determined to promote and improve Pairs training program for China. It was a long arduous route but a Pairs powerhouse nation was built and has been maintained till this day.

Then of course we have Yuna and Javi as extremely accomplished champions to inspire the development of figure skating in previously unknown federations. And don't forget Denis and Misha.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Well, you see... it's right in the title.

Yes I can see that

It's also the "world" in world rankings

 

[Violet Bliss]

Often a nation saturated with talents in a particular field spreads its wealth to other nations. About half of the Olympic table tennis players are of Chinese origin and Jamaicans are sprinting for various nations. I'm sure African runners are competing for non African countries too. In figure skating, many skaters with duel citizenship are representing nations where it's easier to qualify for Worlds. We get to see Misha as much as we do exactly because he, or rather his father/coach, chose to represent a very weak federation rather than the big Russia or China.

Letting nations weak in a sport participate at Worlds and the Olympics has led to its development and possible great future in these nations because of native or transplanted talents who otherwise would not have a chance to continue their development at all. The way to have developed talents from all over the world is to let them all have a chance to represent and compete to start with.

 

[Mathman]

First time poster here but this thread sparked my interest to come out of the proverbial shadows.

Welcome to the forum . Thanks for joining us.

Denkova and Staviski were certainly something special, and in fact were my favorites during the years they competed.:yes:

 

[4everchan]

Often a nation saturated with talents in a particular field spreads its wealth to other nations. About half of the Olympic table tennis players are of Chinese origin and Jamaicans are sprinting for various nations. I'm sure African runners are competing for non African countries too. In figure skating, many skaters with duel citizenship are representing nations where it's easier to qualify for Worlds. We get to see Misha as much as we do exactly because he, or rather his father/coach, chose to represent a very weak federation rather than the big Russia or China.

Letting nations weak in a sport participate at Worlds and the Olympics have led to its development and possible great future in these nations because of native or transplanted talents who otherwise would not have a chance to continue their development at all. The way to have developed talents from all over the worlds is to let them all have a chance to represent and compete to start with.

and how many Canadians are now skating pairs and dance for other Nations? i won't bother making a list.... but i have at least 5 in my head right now.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The very best in the world will win at Worlds and the Olympics even if it means a podium sweep by a nation. Capping national entries at 3 makes sense in ensuring the medalists are truly deserving.

 

[venx]

You want more Spots for rRussian ladies, which automatically leads to more for Japan cCanada and US.

No, it doesn't. :confused2:
Why on earth would you consider granting 4 spots to Japanese, Canadian and US senior ladies? They are miles behind Russians. :shocked:

 

[andromache]

Making it easier for the big, powerful federations to dominate even more = no thanks. Federations with the money to fund lots of training for individual skaters (as Russia does) have enough of an advantage already.

It's unfortunate for the athletes who miss out, like Elena Radionova, but that disadvantage is outweighed by the fact the advantage she has in skating for Russia. (Otherwise she would've switched countries). Having incredible resources inevitably means incredible competition, which might mean missing out on Worlds, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Everything goes in cycles and phenomenons don't last forever. At one time or another, fans bemoan the entry limits for Russian Ladies, Japanese Men, and Chinese Pairs. But situations ebbs and flow and are not static. Making exceptions will only incur more issues to resolve.