Half of World Top Ten Out of Ladies Worlds

[andromache]

I'm surprised people can only see one side of the argument as being reasonable. I certainly see both sides but I'm just a wee bit more preferring to see the absolute best competitors to be at the championship that determines the best in the World on a given year. I really don't think there is a right or wrong and having a preference is hardly stupid or even being short sided IMO.

This is something the Grand Prix Final already does. IMO, there's a strong argument to be made that GPF should count for more, or be worth more prestige, etc.

The alternative would be for figure skating as a whole to move to a system like tennis, where nationality doesn't really matter at all for any of the major comps aside from the Olympics, which would require an entire reorganization of the sport. I don't know the details regarding how pro tennis is organized/administered, but years ago I recall seeing a post on here regarding how figure skating could be more like tennis in that regard, rather than being so nationalistic.

 

[zanadude]

Michaela Du Toit, who OP feels the need to be nasty about, could be the next Javier Fernandez! And even if she's not, someone else will be.

"Nasty about"? Did I say anything that wasn't factually correct?

Why does the World Championships have to be the place where inferior skaters are coddled? Should they all be given participation trophies to boost their self-esteem?

 

[andromache]

What granting 4th spot for Russia in Ladies category has to do with all of above?

Giving extra spots to a certain country inevitably means taking spots away from others, or deciding that one country is more deserving than another, and it is unclear where the line is drawn. Should US ice dance get another spot, and Chinese pairs?

If you want to watch a bunch of Russian ladies compete, watch Russian Nationals, or GPF.

 

[andromache]

"Nasty about"? Did I say anything that wasn't factually correct?

Why does the World Championships have to be the place where inferior skaters are coddled? Should they all be given participation trophies to boost their self-esteem?

How does being allowed to participate mean being coddled? And what do trophies have to do with anything?

 

[4everchan]

What granting 4th spot for Russia in Ladies category has to do with all of above?

but why Russia now??? why not giving a spot to Gracie Gold as well... and to Alaine... and to Mao... and then to XYZ ????

what it could do is to make more of these skaters reach the top 5-20.... bumping down even more skaters out of the final 24 who get into the free skate.

And, the experience of skating the free program is extremely valuable for these lower rank, aspiring skaters.... already, aiming to make the cut is an ambition we see from smaller federation skaters....

One compromise would be to send all of the skaters with TES minimum... no limits...

They skate the SP, but only 2 per nation is allowed in the final 24...

So it would be a bit like gymnastics all around competition... but then, with the costs implied, with also the time it would take to get through these extra SPs... it seems just as good to use the current system.

Do you really think that a skater who is ranked 4 to 7 in Russia will suddenly prove she was meant to be 1st in the world? Could happen....not impossible..

AND FINALLY, the current state of Russia has developed a tigress in Pogo... Having to make sure she would qualify in her own country has probably contributed a lot in her getting more and more consistent. I think it is building character within the strong federations and making the skaters better. I would think Daleman is going through the same way as Kaetlyn recuperates her form. She doesn't want to be left out, and she is starting to control her jumps much better. So the current system also has a positive influence on some of the strong skaters from the bigger feds.

 

[Mathman]

ETA: Look at this future world champion!

He did great! One fall -- was that suppose to be an entry into a flying spin? Popped the opening Axel. But he showed his heart.

About the "argument" -- well, there really isn't one. The ISU is composed of a slew of member federations. They each get one vote on proposed changes in the conduct of competitions. The deal is, if you join the ISU and pay your dues, one thing you get is the right to send your national champion to the world championships. (I am a little surprised that the federations even went along with the required minimum rule -- what if Yao Bin and his partner had not been allowed to skate in the 1980 world championships (finishing last). China would not have become a pairs powerhouse.)

 

[shiroKJ]

This is all so present minded. Allowing smaller federation skaters to participate in big events gives them experience. It gives them a stage. That could have a domino effect and inspire other skaters from their country to aim high or their experience on the big stage could help them in the future if they decide to coach other skaters. Having their spots taken away "this time" might cause the future generation of skaters to lose out.

 

[jaylee]

Sorry, but Grand Prix series is for skaters to get spots and make it to the final regardless of what country they are from. You have a good world ranking and you get GP spots.

Well. I actually think that the GP selection is similarly unfair towards skaters who don't represent a "big 6" host nation, and much of your same argument can be applied there as well.

A "middle-of-the-pack" skater from a host federation who hasn't been guaranteed a GP slot has a significantly better chance and opportunity of being gifted one than a "middle-of-the-pack" skater from a non-host federation. The opportunity is in itself invaluable: a chance to compete, earn points, boost their ranking (to help guarantee them GP slots later), win prize money, possibly qualify for the GPF, establish reputation and become recognized--gain some momentum going into Worlds.

A skater who is not highly ranked and didn't earn a guaranteed GP spot doesn't mean that they are without talent and ability, just as Javier's early low world placements didn't prove that he was without talent. They just need another chance, a host pick, to prove it, and in return, the host pick can make a huge difference in a skater's career. Mariah Bell was an injury replacement for Angela Wang, the original host pick at 2016 Skate America. Result: silver medal. But that wasn't just it--she won the FS over the reigning world silver medalist, and made a name for herself with a beautiful performance that had British Eurosport saying that they had just witnessed the "birth of America's next leading lady". She showed that she's a force to be reckoned with. She continued her momentum with a medal at US Nationals, and now she's going to Worlds.

Kaetlyn Osmond was a host pick at 2012 Skate Canada. Result: Gold medal. She made a name for herself, continued her momentum to Canadian nationals, went to 2013 Worlds, held in Canada, and finished in the top 10 and secured two Olympic spots for Canada. If she hadn't won 2012 Skate Canada, would the international judges at 2013 Worlds have recognized and rewarded her skating for all the qualities it has? Maybe, maybe not. Consistently competing and positive showings at higher profile ISU events are helpful to a skater. But not getting the opportunity to compete? Not helpful. Yes, I know there are senior B-s and smaller non-GP events. But it's a tougher mountain to climb, which just enforces my point about how big of an advantage it is to be a skater for a GP host federation.

How many Kaetlyn Osmonds/Mariah Bells from little countries ended their career because they couldn't get a GP slot and decided their career was hopeless?

(Sometimes I just read Javi's Wikipedia page for forum argument reasons like this and I just want to CRY because this guy did not make a name for himself as a little preteen or teenage prodigy, he did not come from a skating country, he received no federation support, he had abysmal results on the JGP and at Junior Worlds and at Europeans and at senior Worlds for years and years, but my god he improved EVERY YEAR. At his first worlds in 2007, he placed 35th. Ten years later, he will be defending his Worlds title for the SECOND TIME!!! No one else has a career like this! So when people crap on the number of "bad" skaters from non-skating countries at JGP events and Europeans and at Worlds, I just get so mad because LOOK AT WHAT JAVIER DID.

You make good points that I agree with, except for the part that I bolded. It's true that no one else has the exact same career trajectory as Javier, but in the spirit of your argument, Javier is not the only skater who emerged from a "skating country" who overcame tremendous challenges and lack of support to accomplish so much. The only reason I wasn't more disappointed in Javier not getting an Olympic medal was that it went to Denis Ten, who has labored just as long, if not longer, and came from a similar background from a country without history in figure skating.

Skaters like Javier, Denis Ten, and Yu-Na Kim did much more than win titles--they proved that it wasn't impossible for a skater from a non-skating country to stand on the podium at a major ISU event (even though it can be VERY difficult!). And I think their pioneering accomplishments are uniquely special and inspirational, and great for the sport, versus a similar accomplishment by a skater from a powerhouse country.

 

[karne]

I think granting 4th spot for Russia in Ladies category would be minor and rightful modification, pleasing most of the fs community and bringing some sense of justice. :thumbsup:

Why is it rightful? What makes Russia so frigging special? Sorry that your skater wasn't good enough this year, they'll have to try again next year.

Why does the World Championships have to be the place where inferior skaters are coddled? Should they all be given participation trophies to boost their self-esteem?

How dare you?! How dare you?! Those "inferior skaters" have worked harder than you probably ever have in your life to get to where they are! Your attitude is disgusting, selfish, vile, narrow-minded and pathetic. I'd use better, more accurate words, but they won't get past the swear filter and I don't feel like getting an infraction today.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

This is all so present minded. Allowing smaller federation skaters to participate in big events gives them experience. It gives them a stage. That could have a domino effect and inspire other skaters from their country to aim high or their experience on the big stage could help them in the future if they decide to coach other skaters. Having their spots taken away "this time" might cause the future generation of skaters to lose out.

I definitely see that point but I also don't think it's necassrily cut and dry. It's entirely possible that the Olympics value could see an increase and create an even better stage to accomplish such growth and inspiration. Heck...maybe people would pay more attention to 4CC even if their skater needs to rank in the top 15 there or something. It's just not so easily dismissed in my mind or maybe a better way to say it is there certainly are positives that could come from changing the WC format.

I just don't see it one way or the other. In all honesty I'd love more than anything to see the judges freak the freak out when the 12th ranked competitor is good enough to challenge for the podium. They'd be so confused knowing #20 isn't so easily scored a 5.5 in INT without potential blowback.

 

[NanaPat]

I think that instead of relying on top 10s or whatever, the medalists from previous world should have an invitation outside the regular spots rules.
Simple.

That used to be the system. TWO spots maximum were awarded to the federation based on skaters' results. In addition, third (or even fourth) spots were awarded to medalists (or maybe top 5), but they belonged to the skater personally, not the federation. If the skater was injured or retired, the spot could not be filled by another skater from that country.

 

[SnowWhite]

This is a ridiculous argument that crops up time and time again, and really only in regards to the Russian ladies. The Russian ladies are the best because their country has the best program for making their ladies successful. They have resources to succeed that ladies around the world probably envy. But more resources and a better program means more competition, and that's just how it is. The girls who go to Worlds are the ones who have made the best use of what their country has given them.

Meanwhile, skaters from non-skating countries probably have very little to work with, support-wise, and they make the most of that. Skaters from countries with crappier systems/poorer programs should still get to skate at Worlds, because it's good for them and good for making the sport just a little more relevant in their country. Those years when Javier was placing in the 30s at Worlds...what if instead of Javi getting to go to Worlds and skate poorly, those spots had been given to some Russian or American or Japanese men instead?

Sorry, but Grand Prix series is for skaters to get spots and make it to the final regardless of what country they are from. You have a good world ranking and you get GP spots.

World Championships is for THE WORLD.

(Sometimes I just read Javi's Wikipedia page for forum argument reasons like this and I just want to CRY because this guy did not make a name for himself as a little preteen or teenage prodigy, he did not come from a skating country, he received no federation support, he had abysmal results on the JGP and at Junior Worlds and at Europeans and at senior Worlds for years and years, but my god he improved EVERY YEAR. At his first worlds in 2007, he placed 35th. Ten years later, he will be defending his Worlds title for the SECOND TIME!!! No one else has a career like this! So when people crap on the number of "bad" skaters from non-skating countries at JGP events and Europeans and at Worlds, I just get so mad because LOOK AT WHAT JAVIER DID.

I think I'm becoming a bit of an uber. I don't even love his skating all that much. But man, Javier the human being just slays me.)

Michaela Du Toit, who OP feels the need to be nasty about, could be the next Javier Fernandez! And even if she's not, someone else will be.

ETA: Look at this future world champion!

I did a Spanish project on him last week. It was very interesting learning more about his career story.

You can't see it because you are from a big skating country and like skaters from big skating countries. Your privilege blinds your worldview, like so many others from big skating countries who show such disgusting disrespect to the hard-working little country skaters, as the OP did.

I think this is kind of rude. The poster you are responding to said they could see both sides, but had a slight preference for the one the OP expressed. Somebody saying they don't agree with you, but they can understand your point of view isn't somebody being blinded by privilege. That's a pretty dramatic take on what was said. I personally agree that it's very important to give opportunities to smaller countries and that a max of three spots is fine for the bigger feds, but I don't think attacking people who don't agree is fair, nor is it a good way of convincing people that you're right. Most people don't respond super well to being called disgustingly disrespectful. I also think this is a fair discussion to have, even though I like the current system fine.

I'm surprised people can only see one side of the argument as being reasonable. I certainly see both sides but I'm just a wee bit more preferring to see the absolute best competitors to be at the championship that determines the best in the World on a given year. I really don't think there is a right or wrong and having a preference is hardly stupid or even being short sided IMO.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Sorry that your skater wasn't good enough this year, they'll have to try again next year.

Lol...you're using the same argument against itself.

 

[zanadude]

How dare you?! How dare you?! Those "inferior skaters" have worked harder than you probably ever have in your life to get to where they are! Your attitude is disgusting, selfish, vile, narrow-minded and pathetic. I'd use better, more accurate words, but they won't get past the swear filter and I don't feel like getting an infraction today.

How dare I say that a Michaela Du Toit is inferior to a Mirai Nagasu? Gee, if only performances were scored with an agreed upon methodology so that we could do a quantitative analysis of that question...

But I would love to hear how the fact that I don't participate in ISU sanctioned events means that I cannot identify skaters that are not at a world-class level, and are thus INFERIOR to those that are.

 

[shiroKJ]

He did great! One fall -- was that suppose to be an entry into a flying spin? Popped the opening Axel. But he showed his heart.

About the "argument" -- well, there really isn't one. The ISU is composed of a slew of member federations. They each get one vote on proposed changes in the conduct of competitions. The deal is, if you join the ISU and pay your dues, one thing you get is the right to send your national champion to the world championships. (I am a little surprised that the federations even went along with the required minimum rule -- what if Yao Bin and his partner had not been allowed to skate in the 1980 world championships (finishing last). China would not have become a pairs powerhouse.)

Without YaoBin, there'd be no S/Z and P/T :shock2:....and then no S/H, Y/J, P/J, Y/Z :noshake:

 

[Miller]

Grand Prix event singles (others?) should be increased to 18 skaters (max 4 per country). That way deserving skaters from both big and small countries would get the chance to compete in more prestige events (36 extra slots would be available to them).

The ranking system should be overhauled. It's based on 3 years results (last one 70%), which is crazy really - is any other sport more than 1, possibly 2? Also the relative weighting of some of the events should be looked at e.g. Challenger series events are only just higher than 'Other B' Internationals. Having said that does 'ranking' come into it other than GP slots? However having said that it should be sorted so it's much more reflective of a skater's current ability not what it was 2 or 3 years ago.

 

[andromache]

How dare I say that a Michaela Du Toit is inferior to a Mirai Nagasu? Gee, if only performances were scored with an agreed upon methodology so that we could do a quantitative analysis of that question...

But I would love to hear how the fact that I don't participate in ISU sanctioned events means that I cannot identify skaters that are not at a world-class level, and are thus INFERIOR to those that are.

ISU has minimum requirements for their events, and evidently, both Michaela Du Toit and Mirai Nagasu both met those requirements. If you don't want to watch Michaela (and I understand many don't, really, competitions are long and people have limited amounts of time), no one is forcing you to do so.

Some skaters are worse than others, yes. But arguing that the bar should be raised to increase the minimum requirements for ISU Championships is different than arguing that the maximum number of spots should be changed in one special exception for one special country.

Again, GPF allows the best of the best, regardless of national affiliation, to compete against one another, and it probably deserves to have more prestige than it currently does for that exact reason.

ETA: I just don't want more power in the hands of the big federations. Really, Javier wasn't a terrible skater in his early days, and likely would've had earlier success than he did if he had been from a powerhouse country. Meanwhile, looking at Elena Radionova and Liza Tukt this season (and this season only), would they be receiving the scores/results they have this season and also fan sadness for not getting to go to Worlds if they were not A. from a powerhouse country and B. better skaters in previous seasons than they are now? Are either of them that much better than Li Zijun or Elisabet Tursynbaeva or Da Bin Choi?

Not to single them out - while Elena's bad programs and posture and Liza's lack of transitions/choreography have always gone rather un-penalized by the judges, so have Ashley's poor skating skills/lack of transitions, Satoko's underrotations, etc. Skaters from powerhouse countries get passes that skaters from non-powerhouse countries do not. I don't see that changing anytime soon, but let's at least not allow powerhouse countries to change the entire dynamic of Worlds by letting them push more of their politically-favored skaters into the competition.

 

[ice coverage]

"Nasty about"? ...

Yes, you were nasty. :dev2:

You singled out one skater by name and then chose unnecessarily cruel words to describe her skating.

You easily could have chosen more neutral language to make your point, but you went out of your way to be unkind to a skater from a small federation.

Kaetlyn Osmond had three falls in her FS at Four Continents. Do her three falls make her unworthy of competing at Four Continents?
Would you use the same mean-spirited wording of "flopping all over the ice" to describe her?

---

(Lest anyone wonder: I am an Osmond fan. She of course is worthy of competing at Four Continents. With my questions above, I am playing devil's advocate.
The other skater had to meet the TES minimums for Four Continents, and also was deserving of the opportunity to compete there.)

 

[Krunchii]

This is a ridiculous argument that crops up time and time again, and really only in regards to the Russian ladies. The Russian ladies are the best because their country has the best program for making their ladies successful. They have resources to succeed that ladies around the world probably envy. But more resources and a better program means more competition, and that's just how it is. The girls who go to Worlds are the ones who have made the best use of what their country has given them.

Meanwhile, skaters from non-skating countries probably have very little to work with, support-wise, and they make the most of that. Skaters from countries with crappier systems/poorer programs should still get to skate at Worlds, because it's good for them and good for making the sport just a little more relevant in their country. Those years when Javier was placing in the 30s at Worlds...what if instead of Javi getting to go to Worlds and skate poorly, those spots had been given to some Russian or American or Japanese men instead?

Sorry, but Grand Prix series is for skaters to get spots and make it to the final regardless of what country they are from. You have a good world ranking and you get GP spots.

World Championships is for THE WORLD.

(Sometimes I just read Javi's Wikipedia page for forum argument reasons like this and I just want to CRY because this guy did not make a name for himself as a little preteen or teenage prodigy, he did not come from a skating country, he received no federation support, he had abysmal results on the JGP and at Junior Worlds and at Europeans and at senior Worlds for years and years, but my god he improved EVERY YEAR. At his first worlds in 2007, he placed 35th. Ten years later, he will be defending his Worlds title for the SECOND TIME!!! No one else has a career like this! So when people crap on the number of "bad" skaters from non-skating countries at JGP events and Europeans and at Worlds, I just get so mad because LOOK AT WHAT JAVIER DID.

I think I'm becoming a bit of an uber. I don't even love his skating all that much. But man, Javier the human being just slays me.)

Michaela Du Toit, who OP feels the need to be nasty about, could be the next Javier Fernandez! And even if she's not, someone else will be.

ETA: Look at this future world champion!

Love this post andromache!:agree:

I also want to give another example, Yao Bin, with his partner Luan Bo he learned pair moves from books, finished last place 3 times at the World Championships and then last place at the 1984 Olympics. People laughed at them and found their skating very funny, even Irina Rodnina admitted that. Their career may have never culminated in any accolades but being able to go to Worlds and Olympics gave them such valuable experience that they were able to take it back home with them and create a legacy of their own and produce Olympic and World Champions at home.

Even if Michaela Du Toit doesn't end up with a skating career like Javier Fernandez, she can take these experiences home with her and jump start a figure skating program in her own country. Being able to compete with top skaters, and see them up close and live can be a huge source of motivation and a great learning experience for small federation skaters.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I urge anyone with ten minutes to spare to watch this.

https://youtu.be/sXxq19Mq2pM

Or if you only have three to spare

https://youtu.be/X8His8Zs0Rg

The Olympic spirit will always drive athletes to come from situations that are at odds with their goals. The chance to represent your country and your dream will always serve to inspire athletes that in turn will inspire more athletes and quite honestly humanity itself. These are things that I like to believe are inside of all of us and will always exsist. Of course I believe in nurturing and growing talent and opportunity around the entire world.

I think the idea of representing your country is a noble an honorable mission that with hard work and effort can be a beautiful thing. That is the foundation of the Olympics to so many people and as long as the Olympics exist these dreams will exist. I ask myself if the goal of the world figure skating championship is the same? Are non figure skating fans going to tune into prime time and watch you represent them? Will making it there create inspiration in your country and instill your nation with pride. Probably to a lesser extent it would but again....is this what the WC of the sport are really about. Maybe it is just a continuation of the Olympic spirit and manifests isn't self as such but I think it's ok to have an event that measures the best talent. Sorry GPF but the whole selection process for GP is terrible and arguably a bigger obstacle to small Feds than basing the WC on the top athletes. Actually probably a lot more so because the top 6 seeds are almost guaranteed medals if they can perform near expectations...sometimes without even doing that...creating log jams in the rankings that are created by federations being allowed to cherry pick where skaters compete.

I think as long as the Olympics provide this breeding ground for growth and inspiration the World Championship could realistically be based on talent, skill, and development and not harm the sport as a whole. People will find ways to achieve their dreams and people from nothing can create something. Sure Julia came from a big federation although not a powerhouse in ladies skating at the time and she too came from a very humble background, her and her mom were able to pack everything they own into a car and drive to Moscow in search of a coach, but she also embodied the spirit of an Olympic athlete and her story was the story of the Olympics for me. I followed her because of that drive and not because she was Russian. I knew about her years before the Olympics and heard from folks about her and now Brolin is the story I follow going into this Olympics. Brolin in the movie isn't asking to go to the Dew Tour because Uganda isn't represented...although they did invite him....he is trying to reach the level he needs to qualify for the Olympics and it is thru talent and determination that will lead him there. He doesn't need a last place finish at the Snow Boarding World Cup to grow the sport at home. He needs to make it to the Olympics and be the first Ugandan winter athlete to do so.

I'm pulling for him to achieve this and I hope that he inspires others to try.

I know this is very long winded and a bit OT but I just want to make it clear that being in favor of a top ranked majority of skaters at the World Championship does not mean that I or anyone else for that matter is in favor of shutting small nations out of the sport...let alone the event. Think invitations, exemptions, and qualification routes that might be better than current ones. I also don't think FS is ever going to move past skater's representing nationalities (let's be honest here....they represent federations when not at the Olympics) nor do I expect it but....I think it's fair to listen to those who maybe see things differently.