Half of World Top Ten Out of Ladies Worlds

[andromache]

@Sam:

I totally see your perspective even though I disagree with it. Unfortunately, a lot of people here aren't as nice or discursively constructive as you, and really only seem more interested in more spots for Russian ladies / less spots for smaller countries than in revamping how spots are allocated more generally.

I think US ice dance suffers as much, if not more than, the Russian ladies because of how Worlds spots are allocated. At least Russian ladies can really fight one another for those three spots. The wait-your-turn view that still rules ice dance + clear rankings of teams as #1 US team, #2 US team, etc means it'll probably be a few years before the former and current World Junior Champs get to go to senior worlds (H/B, M/C, not to mention Parsons). And even if all these team did get to compete at, say, next year's senior Worlds because the ISU decided your allocation of spots would be most fair, the US #4 and #5 teams would probably find themselves below several other countries' #1 teams, even if they had in fact outskated those teams.

It's not only an ice dance problem, either. This season, many fans have perceived Anna receiving lower scores than deserved in order to preserve the ranking (keeping #2 Russian below #1 Japanese, for example) and there have been worries that because Ashley did not win Nationals, her status as US #1 will have been changed and she will receive lower scores st Worlds as a result.

Basically, in a perfect world those little flags next to skaters' names don't mean much because the country and federation they represent, but those flags determine a lot. Deciding who competes based on merit rather than country is nice, but those end results are still going to be partially determined by country, and the more competitors you have from a single country, the more the so-called "merit based" results will wind up distorted.

 

[4everchan]

and ice dance in N/A was dead for many years when it was dominated by Russians ....

The sport goes by waves. What the system provides with making these quotas, is that during a large Russian or American lady (or ice dance) wave, other nations still have a shot at top ten, and that way, it creates a flow of skaters, who go to worlds, compete with a reasonable shot at top ten, keeping interest alive not only with fans of different nations but also with the young athletes themselves. This then allows for other contenders to emerge... for federations to rebuild, etc. for the sport to remain strong in several nations instead of just 1 or 2.

 

[lappo]

I think granting 4th spot for Russia in Ladies category would be minor and rightful modification, pleasing most of the fs community and bringing some sense of justice. :thumbsup:

To make a comparison with gymnastics, currently dominated by US team, should we take away the 2 spot per country limit in the individual events? If that happened at Rio, probably there would have been an all American podium (Biles, Reysman, Douglas who was the third highest scoring in the qualifiers)...the rule probably allowed Mustafina to win. Yet, it seems to me that no one claimed that Douglas was robbed or that rules should be changed.

 

[venx]

Giving extra spots to a certain country inevitably means taking spots away from others

No, it doesn't, why would it? :confused2:

or deciding that one country is more deserving than another

Russia undoubtedly is more deserving for what they've been doing with their ladies - investing, training, winning, setting records, etc..

did wiand it is unclear where the line is drawn.

At 4 spots for Russian ladies on World team.

Should US ice dance get another spot, and Chinese pairs?

Why not?

If you want to watch a bunch of Russian ladies compete, watch Russian Nationals, or GPF.

I do, but it's not about me being comfy, it's about bringing some justice in rgards to Russian skaters, their coaches and their achievements.

 

[Vernella]

No, it doesn't, why would it? :confused2:

Russia undoubtedly is more deserving for what they've been doing with their ladies - investing, training, winning, setting records, etc..

At 4 spots for Russian ladies on World team.

Why not?

I do, but it's not about me being comfy, it's about bringing some justice in rgards to Russian skaters, their coaches and their achievements.

You can't have an infinite number of competitors because time and money are limited, of course if you add somewhere you have to take away somewhere else. Works for Russian girls and US ice dance and Chinese pairs.
If you want more than three russian ladies in an ISU comp there's already the Grand Prix.
And Russia is winning everything and setting record after record, what else could make it more justice?

On a different note, ISU could come up with a competition for the best (based on season best) skaters/pairs regardless of country and with a set number of participant to fit a reasonable schedule, but the money/time problem remains...

 

[Alex D]

Without the small nations we wouldnt even have Worlds... Or is NA and Japan, willing to host them each year?

Besides that, all skaters work hard each single day, so if they qualify then they deserve to be there, even if they come from Antarktika.

 

[venx]

You can't have an infinite number of competitors because time and money are limited, of course if you add somewhere you have to take away somewhere else. Works for Russian girls and US ice dance and Chinese pairs.

How adding one spot for Russian ladies is equal creating "infinite number of competitors"?
How does it cause the need of taking away anything from anybody?

:shocked:

 

[Vernella]

How adding one spot for Russian ladies is equal creating "infinite number of competitors"?
How does it cause the need of taking away anything from anybody?

:shocked:

It's breaking the rule that makes it infinite. You do it once and you end up stuck in a loop of "just once more".

 

[Alex D]

How adding one spot for Russian ladies is equal creating "infinite number of competitors"?
How does it cause the need of taking away anything from anybody?

:shocked:

I Support Russian skaters in everything they do, because reasons

But, if we give Russia more Ladies Spots then we need to do the same with USA,. Canada, Japan. 4 more skaters, equals another Group at the comp and this only for Ladies.

Same would happen with ice Dance men, maybe even pairs.

16 more competitors that all need medical attention, accomodation, food.

It would raise the costs, which leads to even higher tTicket prices travel costs...

LLimited Starter Fields have a reason even if Ihate them.

 

[a_reader]

How dare you?! How dare you?! Those "inferior skaters" have worked harder than you probably ever have in your life to get to where they are! Your attitude is disgusting, selfish, vile, narrow-minded and pathetic. I'd use better, more accurate words, but they won't get past the swear filter and I don't feel like getting an infraction today.

I can't take it anymore...I rarely post here, and it's precisely because of Karne's attitude toward other posters, including myself. Several years ago, I posted an opinion about something, and Karne was so unequivocally nasty in her reply that I have, for the most part, chosen not to participate in this board. I certainly can't be the only person with no patience for these rantings about privilege and big countries vs small countries, and who has chosen to stay away as a result.

 

[andromache]

How adding one spot for Russian ladies is equal creating "infinite number of competitors"?
How does it cause the need of taking away anything from anybody?

:shocked:

If you were actually interested in addressing the "injustices" of the system, do you propose a solution besides giving the Russian ladies a fourth spot just because? A more realistic solution would be to implement a rule that, for example, awards a fourth spot to a country that has all three competitors Worlds placements add up to 8 or less, or something.

 

[Alex D]

If you were actually interested in addressing the "injustices" of the system, do you propose a solution besides giving the Russian ladies a fourth spot just because? A more realistic solution would be to implement a rule that, for example, awards a fourth spot to a country that has all three competitors Worlds placements add up to 8 or less, or something.

I would Support a Wildcard for the defending Champion non transferable.,

 

[Violetti]

I prefer the current system. I would not like to see any more skaters than three from any country no matter how good they are or were last season. Three is a lot. It is not so many years ago when Russia could sent only 2.

 

[labgoat]

You have to qualify first by getting your TES minimums, so at least, no spots will be given to skaters who are really not ready to go, just for the sake of representing I don't know... the BOBO Islands (made up country).

I hear the BOBO Islands has a very liberal citizenship and grants asylum to many skaters in controversial team selection decisions. In the past we could have sent both Mark Mitchell AND Paul Wylie to worlds. Perhaps mervissa should apply? All US pewter medalists? Please chime in with other suggestions. - Disclaimer: Meant in fun ONLY and the names expressed do not reflect the beliefs of the skaters listed nor any others suggested.

 

[venx]

If you were actually interested in addressing the "injustices" of the system, do you propose a solution besides giving the Russian ladies a fourth spot just because? A more realistic solution would be to implement a rule that, for example, awards a fourth spot to a country that has all three competitors Worlds placements add up to 8 or less, or something.

I completely agree with you, that new rules system for 4th additional spot should be introduced, but before I could even attend to do that, the choir of social justice warriors shouting "NO hurting the small countries!" took over the civilized discussion.
As you've seen some of them haven't even refrained from nasty personal attacks on other posters.
I'm not even Russian nor personally interested in the matter and would have never expected some technical idea of rules change causes such animalistic rage in response.

 

[draka]

First time poster here but this thread sparked my interest to come out of the proverbial shadows.

Obviously the sport has historically been dominated by a few countries but giving even more power to them just because they already have so much of it, that only benefits them, the "big ones", in the end. And frankly, it's harmful to the sport as a whole. Classic case of power dynamics in a system that tends to opress the minorities if not controlled.

To prove a point (inspired by the above mentioning of the stories of skaters such as Javi, Denis Ten etc), here's one of the most underappreciated ice dance teams in recent history (at least on the GS forum, from what I've seen... or not seen).
Albena Denkova / Maxim Staviski - Bulgaria's only medalists at major competitions in any discipline to date. Two time World champions (2006 and 2007), coming from a country which at the time had only one (!!!) functioning rink (and yes, I should know as I trained there as a kid). They never won gold at Europeans as they were consistently underscored due to their unique skating style, deemed "avant-garde" (as if that's a bad thing) and even too "rough" for ice dance traditions. (If you want to see for yourself, here and here, welcome) They were great technically and brought something different to the ice dance scene. Papadakis/Cizeron are doing the same right now, albeit very different in style, but I don't think they would have won their first Worlds as soon had they not been from France (and that's not even the biggest fed out there!). Another example, Chock/Bates who this season are bringing two edgier programs (compared to the more "romantic" themes that have been going on). They too have the push of the USFS and are scoring better than they would were they coming from a smaller federation. Obviously this is not meant to disregard the abilities of said teams (which I am a fan of as well), just another example of why there must not be any more "free passes" given to some and not others.

As an ex skater in my pre teen years and in a contry where ten years after the Denkova/Staviski "big win" nothing much has changed. Remember that one and only rink I mentioned before? It's falling apart and we have another that should be hosting Junior Worlds next year but isn't open year-round for training due to the state not having any funding to spare for a sport like that. Not that the dominance of some feds is solely responsible for that but imagine all the kids training right now that depend on that one spot for competitions to be there in order to have any reason at all to continue their fight daily.

 

[Alex D]

I completely agree with you, that new rules system for 4th additional spot should be introduced, but before I could even attend to do that, the choir of social justice warriors shouting "NO hurting the small countries!" took over the civilized discussion.
As you've seen some of them haven't even refrained from nasty personal attacks on other posters.
I'm not even Russian nor personally interested in the matter and would have never expected some technical idea of rules change causes such animalistic rage in response.

It was just one maybe two Users though who got Personal not everyone. Besides that, you did not invest much time yourselves in trying to understand why small nations need to be there.

Funding
Host cities
TV rights
Merchandise
Sponsoring
New breed of skaters

When Irina stopped, there was not much left, without plushy there isn't much either, but that one spot motivated the kids, so they worked hard to win it.

 

[venx]

It was just one maybe two Users though who got Personal not everyone. Besides that, you did not invest much time yourselves in trying to understand why small nations need to be there.

Well, if you invested any time yourselves to read my short post, you would've found I didn't write a single word or slightest suggestion about stripping small nations of being at Worlds.

 

[el henry]

I completely agree with you, that new rules system for 4th additional spot should be introduced, but before I could even attend to do that, the choir of social justice warriors shouting "NO hurting the small countries!" took over the civilized discussion.
As you've seen some of them haven't even refrained from nasty personal attacks on other posters.
I'm not even Russian nor personally interested in the matter and would have never expected some technical idea of rules change causes such animalistic rage in response.

I must disagree with your characterization, because I agree with Karne. The OP, in making fun of a certain athlete by name, was rude beyond measure, and then when rightfully called out on it, chose to spout some irrelevancies about participation trophies and coddling. :dumb: Either the response was designed to provoke, or just inept.

In any event, posters are right: we have this discussion year after year and it won't change. Change the GP rules you like, or not, I don't mind some other venue for the "best", but Worlds and Olympics are for the entire World, not just those countries who happen to have the best skaters at the best time. Thank heavens.:yes:

 

[shiroKJ]

The ISU is all about cutting down the # of participants and total time in order to save $ (even the extra 30 seconds for skaters to get into start position). So in order for that one special skater/team (which let be real, if you make an exception for one, you'll have to make an exception for many) to get a spot, someone on the bottom of the list will get cut and that's the inevitable truth.