How did we get to this point regarding PCS?

[Rissa]

In my opinion the judges have basically given Mao an ultimatum- either you bring all your technical elements, clean, rotated, and on the right edge, or we're not giving you the component marks to win anything this season.

You and this silly idea of a "message" and "ultimatum" to Mao...

 

[Daniel1998]

Whether Mao brings all her big tricks, is up to Mao, and no-one else, as long as she is following the skating guidelines, the judges have no legitimate right to demand anything more from her, or to underscore her on that shallow, ridiculous basis.

That aside why should a skater be in top form from the very beginning of the season, no skater usually is and should be, and if they are then they are peaking at the wrong time, because all the big competitions are later in the season.

That aside just having all kind of jumps, a 3A and some of the most difficult combo's is a gift, especially when you are one of the oldest competing skaters, meaning it's something we should appreciate but can't expect since it's not the norm to have this kind of high technical skills but the exception. Some of you talk as if it's a given that we should get to see an 8 triple program with 3A and 3-3 and as if a dosin of women are doing that on regurlar basis. We should be happy and grateful that Mao is still willing to put her body under soo much stress and hard training to maintain these skills the judges so often have taken for granted, please remember that!

I never said it was right. I think it's terrible that her PCS continues to go down, when she's obviously one of the most skilled skaters in the field.
I'm just pointing out that the way the system works right now, the judges only give big PCS if you deliver technical elements. And right now Mao is not delivering enough triples for the judges, so they're lowballing her.
Again, not saying it's right. Just simply saying what the system has come to. No one can justify Medvedeva's 9's compared to Mao's 8's. The only reason she gets such high component scores is because she is so good technically.

 

[Krunchii]

I'm a fan of Anna but I think her SP is only okay, like the first spin does nothing for the music, nothing against Anna or Misha, it's CoP that wants these kinds of spins but I've seen good CoP spins matched to the music before, the second spin is pretty randomly placed to the music too, they don't match and they're the weakest parts of the program. All of Mao's elements are clearly matched to her music more logically and then the story and theme are more clear.

Of course Anna's SP has good points too, Anna's 3-3 starts right as the main melody of the starts and her solo 3Lo right when the music changes direction, and for her final Biellmann spin, when she pulls up into the Biellmann she always slows down, I really liked how they matched it to the music slowing down and the way she went into the layback right on the percussion was very effective. I enjoyed her FS a lot more (even with the mistakes!) and I found the music change at the step sequence pretty strange in the SP. I definitely think there should be a bigger gap between Mao and Anna on PCS but I wouldn't say Anna could be skating to any piece of music, only the first two spins could be pasted anywhere while everything else is alright.

 

[Daniel1998]

You and this silly idea of a "message" and "ultimatum" to Mao...

In my opinion it is a message. A frustrating, ridiculous message, perhaps, but a message nonetheless. There's no way to justify Mao's absurdly low component scores in comparison to everyone else's.
The judges have gotten in the habit of giving high component scores to technically proficient skaters. That's just fact. Mao isn't doing 8 triple programs anymore, and unfortunately, the judges have been giving her lower component scores as a result.
Mao can't compete with the young guns anymore because, due to the judges, her advantage in artistry and skating skills isn't enough to compensate for all the technical stuff the young skaters are doing. Sad? I think so. But that's the way our sport's been headed for the last few years.
Anyway, my point is that the judges are making it pretty clear that Mao will have to deliver more technically if she wants to win competitions, because clearly, they won't bother reward her with deserved component scores otherwise.

 

[Rissa]

In my opinion it is a message. A frustrating, ridiculous message, perhaps, but a message nonetheless. There's no way to justify Mao's absurdly low component scores in comparison to everyone else's.
The judges have gotten in the habit of giving high component scores to technically proficient skaters. That's just fact. Mao isn't doing 8 triple programs anymore, and unfortunately, the judges have been giving her lower component scores as a result.
Mao can't compete with the young guns anymore because, due to the judges, her advantage in artistry and skating skills isn't enough to compensate for all the technical stuff the young skaters are doing. Sad? I think so. But that's the way our sport's been headed for the last few years.
Anyway, my point is that the judges are making it pretty clear that Mao will have to deliver more technically if she wants to win competitions, because clearly, they won't bother reward her with deserved component scores otherwise.

Lol, okay!

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm going to say something very unpopular and this isn't at all in regards to Mao who is easily one of my top favorites of all time. Artistry should not be winning Olympic sporting events. It should be factored in but as unpopular it is among many of the established fans, judges, coaches, etc.... I don't think artistry should be able to trump physical feats of athleticism. Proceed to hurl whatever at me anyone likes but I think if I were allowed to restructure the scoring I'd only factor in "artistry" about 20 to 30 percent of the score. It to me is a nice bonus that could send someone over the top but thats about it....strictly my opinion I know.

Honestly the main reason I say that is it is the most frequently abused aspect of scoring to prop up skaters for whatever reason we could think of.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I totally agree, I was thinking the same a few days ago when i was watching Finlandia trophy. why is it so hard for some judges to score a better skater and a better performance more, factors like SS, IN, PE should always be Much higher for a veteran skater like Mao Asada, her amazing edgework, complete control of speed, and amazing presentation where she hit's the note at the right moment is something we as an audience have come to expect of her, because we are soo used to see quality skating, but I rarely see her fully rewarded for it. then there are other PCS factors like CH and TR and once again it really puzzles me and makes me quite sad too, to see so little difference between Mao's scores and someone like Polina, We all know Mao Asada is one of the absolute best female skaters in the World, and her choreography is always choreography by one of the most famous choreographers in the world, this year especially her choreography stands even more out, with it's uniqness, complexity, elegance and creativity, why is it so hard to give a better skater with better choreography and artistry better scores, it soo wrong when I see the little gap on so many levels and just hurts my heart to witness!

The issue is that the judges have to score 20+ skaters in a 10 point range, and really don't use the lowest end of that range because these are all elite skaters. The top ranked and second ranked PCS scores are always going to be close. It's ridiculous to score Anna 1 or 2 on anything when compared to the lowest ranked competitors.

 

[Mathman]

... I think if I were allowed to restructure the scoring I'd only factor in "artistry" about 20 to 30 percent of the score.

The ISU agrees. Currently, "artistry" (i.e., performance/execution, choreography/composition and interpretation) count for 30% of the total score.

Technical merit (Elements, skating skills and transitions) count for 70%.

The issue is that the judges have to score 20+ skaters in a 10 point range, and really don't use the lowest end of that range because these are all elite skaters. The top ranked and second ranked PCS scores are always going to be close. It's ridiculous to score Anna 1 or 2 on anything when compared to the lowest ranked competitors.

This is the point, as gkelly also explained above. The program component scale has to cover everyone from beginning children to world champions. Anyone competing at the elite level will automatically be at the high end of the scale. (Boyang Jin should be getting at least 8.5s even though he is not at the tip top level of Hanyu, Chan and Fernadez yet. :yes: )

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

In my opinion it is a message. A frustrating, ridiculous message, perhaps, but a message nonetheless.

I don't disagree necessarily but I think it's a message that many skaters get. I also agree the judges and tech panels are often tough on her. I think some of it is rooted in the nastiness that is reputation scoring. It has s bit of s double edged sword at times and the judges know what she is capable of and when they see "safe" skating in Finlandia they gave safe scores at an event that had pretty low scoring. I of course would prefer to watch Mao there over Anna but that doesn't affect my scoresheet. Two different things IMO.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The ISU agrees. Currently, "artistry" (i.e., performance/execution, choreography/composition and interpretation) count for 30% of the total score.

Technical merit (Elements, skating skills and transitions) count for 70%.

Even choreography lends itself to be judged on its technical aspects including the difficulty of the choreography which I'm sure affects the P/E score to some degree. Easy choreography nailed well may not score as well as difficult choreography that gets eked out. So even less than 30% I would assume for some judges.

 

[Skater Boy]

At the Finlandia Trophy, you can see the SP of Mao Asada and Anna Pogorilaya here

Mao's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lTe8B9jsWE

Anna's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AE-Jc5s5ws

How is Mao's PCS only 32.32 vs. Anna's PCS 31.91. Anna skated to Por Una Cabeza and it could be to any music. It's like she doesn't even know what music she's skating to. No movements that match with the music at all. The program is extremely generic. It was incredible that the PCS is so close.

How is this possible? Is this where figure skating is now? Really depressing and disappointing.

If it were up to me
SS - Mao would be 8.5, Anna 7.5
TR - Mao 8.0, Anna 7.5
CH - Mao 9.0, Anna 2.0
PE - Mao 8.5, Anna 6.0
IN - Mao 8.5, Anna 1.0

Well I might get death threats or shot but here goes. I appreciate everyone has different views on pcs but this seems a bit extreme - you may not like Anna's approach but it hardly warrants a 1.0 for interpretation - when you suggest something like that you lose complete credibility. One could argue that other medallist also deserve such low marks then - Mao certainly picked very dramatic music this year and an approach - I personally can appreciate the attempt though I think it is iffy whether it will be liked by all. Now I fully accept and recognize that there are some extreme Mao fans on this thread and she does deserve great marks for pcs. I don't think she has the edge quality of Kostner or certainly not Chan but she is good and likeable I am even open to say it is the beginning of the year and not write her off because she really hasn't had great skates technically in quite some time. We are all very good on this site at rationalizing our picks or reasons for putting one skater over another. One could also argue why Osmond should have been considerably higher over Mao though I am sure I risk bombs and the threat of horrible things to myself and my family and friends. A lot depends on your view. Years ago we have |Philippe Candelero who really was a messy skater but very charismatic. he sold his programs and people liked his looks so to speak and then there was Elvis. People thought he was unartistic. He actually had a program and skated with conviction usually some kind of martial art, warrior, fighter, soldier kind of routine but he kept up the persona. I think Anna's skating at Finlandia was messy but her programs are quite good and she did try to skate with conviction. She doesn't deserve to be pummelled with a 1.0 for interpretation - I don't think Hanyu deserved a 1.0 for his short but i really did not appreciate it at all. I thought Chen spent too much time trying to get the quads in but a 1.0. This question could be also taken a different way. It seems, as I have previously suggested, that there is n o longer enough differentiation in points from the extremely talented skating skills, choreo, interpretation and transition skaters and lessers. And or the jumps are just worth too much. part of the problem is a fall on a quad, but I could be mistake is worth as much as some triples still but if landed is worth more than double a triple. So the risk is worth it = as long as you fully rotate it of course.

 

[Skater Boy]

The technical merit is and should be reflected in the technical score and NOT in the presentation score. if it does then the judges are not be following the scoring guidelines, like they should!

Correct and that is why Mao was not buried even deeper at Sochi in the sp and why Chan and Hanyu have been held up overall when you look at their entire skating - same with Kostner thought I think she has thrown out some real turds.

 

[Krislite]

I'm going to say something very unpopular and this isn't at all in regards to Mao who is easily one of my top favorites of all time. Artistry should not be winning Olympic sporting events. It should be factored in but as unpopular it is among many of the established fans, judges, coaches, etc.... I don't think artistry should be able to trump physical feats of athleticism. Proceed to hurl whatever at me anyone likes but I think if I were allowed to restructure the scoring I'd only factor in "artistry" about 20 to 30 percent of the score. It to me is a nice bonus that could send someone over the top but thats about it....strictly my opinion I know.

Honestly the main reason I say that is it is the most frequently abused aspect of scoring to prop up skaters for whatever reason we could think of.

I think the problem is that there are too few medals awarded--there can be only one for each discipline, despite the variety of skills that figure skating combines. I think it should be more like swimming and gymnastics, where each particular set of skills is rewarded on its own, and an 'overall' medal as well, so that we're not fighting over the total scoring as much. The problem with a composite scoring like IJS or 6.0 is that it is weighing and summing up so many disparate incommensurable elements (choreography/performance, skating skills, technical execution, etc.). And so we fight and argue over not just the grading of each individual element but also the relative weights assigned to them.

As a first step, I'd be fine with splitting each discipline back into the original intent of each program--the short being the 'technical' and the long being the free/artistic, and awarding separate medals accordingly. In the SP, you get to pick your best technical elements and execute them to the best of your ability. Technical execution is weighted at say 80% of total score. In the LP, the converse would be the case.

 

[FlattFan]

Well I might get death threats or shot but here goes. I appreciate everyone has different views on pcs but this seems a bit extreme - you may not like Anna's approach but it hardly warrants a 1.0 for interpretation - when you suggest something like that you lose complete credibility.

I've walked the streets of Buenos Aires, have seen many many tangos. Let me tell you if they somehow do Por Una Cabeza like Anna there, they wouldn't get a peso. Maybe a rock for being so terrible. There is no interpretation, no essence of tango. Are you kidding? Do you know what tango stands for? She has absolutely no interpretation for tango.
Some logic are just pure stupid. Just because she's a top skater doesn't mean she can do all sort of interpretation for all sort of music. Or just because she's a top skater, her interpretation should be higher than some jr skater? Even Mao Asada failed at several programs in the past. Nobody is infallible.

 

[FlattFan]

Mao is serene whereas Anna attacks her programs, she's a very aggressive skater. I can see why Anna's approach might not be appealing to everyone, but that doesn't mean that it's without merit.
And because the comparison between Anna's SP and Mao's exhibition program to "Por una cabeza" came up - I much prefer Anna's SP.

You and Anna and her coach and choreographer have a fundamental misunderstanding of the song then. It is without merit. Carlos Gardel would roll over his grave if his music is aggressive or attacking mode.
This is a true Argentine tango take on this song. Listen and tell me if you truly think Anna is doing the correct interpretation as the author intended. Or the Argentine tango intended. This is why I said her interpretation is 1.0 if not lower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNhr6RKpWkc

 

[Skater Boy]

I've walked the streets of Buenos Aires, have seen many many tangos. Let me tell you if they somehow do Por Una Cabeza like Anna there, they wouldn't get a peso. Maybe a rock for being so terrible. There is no interpretation, no essence of tango. Are you kidding? Do you know what tango stands for? She has absolutely no interpretation for tango.
Some logic are just pure stupid. Just because she's a top skater doesn't mean she can do all sort of interpretation for all sort of music. Or just because she's a top skater, her interpretation should be higher than some jr skater? Even Mao Asada failed at several programs in the past. Nobody is infallible.

Hmm maybe you should try walking the streets of New York or Sochi or smell the coffee somewhere else???

 

[solani]

You and Anna and her coach and choreographer have a fundamental misunderstanding of the song then. It is without merit. Carlos Gardel would roll over his grave if his music is aggressive or attacking mode.
This is a true Argentine tango take on this song. Listen and tell me if you truly think Anna is doing the correct interpretation as the author intended. Or the Argentine tango intended. This is why I said her interpretation is 1.0 if not lower.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNhr6RKpWkc

You seem to be an expert on tango, that's why I'm sure you also know the difference between the various dance tango variations. Argentine tango isn't aggressive, but International tango f.e. is. Or would you give all ballroom dancers who do an International tango a 1.0 only because they aren't doing an Argentine tango? Por una cambeza is about taking risks in life (and love), when I hear the song (the version Anna uses, not the one you posted - sometimes the music arrangement makes all the difference) there's also frustration in it at moments and the will to not give up - because of that I think that Anna's interpretation suits that version of the song. Or do you think that a song has to be performed in a certain way as well? I think that dead Gardel in his grave is perfectly happy with musicians interpreting/performing his song differently. And which composer could have anything against Anna chosing his piece of music? Really ...

 

[mcq]

I've walked the streets of Buenos Aires, have seen many many tangos. Let me tell you if they somehow do Por Una Cabeza like Anna there, they wouldn't get a peso. Maybe a rock for being so terrible. There is no interpretation, no essence of tango. Are you kidding? Do you know what tango stands for? She has absolutely no interpretation for tango.
Some logic are just pure stupid. Just because she's a top skater doesn't mean she can do all sort of interpretation for all sort of music. Or just because she's a top skater, her interpretation should be higher than some jr skater? Even Mao Asada failed at several programs in the past. Nobody is infallible.

As someone who learn ballroom tango this is so so very incorrect. There are so many type of tango and it is not just limited to argentine tango or ballroom tango. There are others like uruguay tango etc and they all have different characters. Even among argentine tango there are different type of style. Ballroom tango is the one who has attacks, head snaps etc while argentine tango is smooth. Same with Samba, there are brazilian samba and international samba which also has 2 different characters.

Just because Anna is not doing the style of tango you are familiar with, does not mean you can say that "she is terrible and she is not doing tango". That is like an insult to a lot of international style dancer out there.

 

[Biellmann]

And again someone who want to play a judge :rofl2:

But at one point you're right: it's really depressing and disappointing- because of this kind of people

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

At the Finlandia Trophy, you can see the SP of Mao Asada and Anna Pogorilaya here

Mao's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lTe8B9jsWE

Anna's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AE-Jc5s5ws

How is Mao's PCS only 32.32 vs. Anna's PCS 31.91. Anna skated to Por Una Cabeza and it could be to any music. It's like she doesn't even know what music she's skating to. No movements that match with the music at all. The program is extremely generic. It was incredible that the PCS is so close.

How is this possible? Is this where figure skating is now? Really depressing and disappointing.

If it were up to me
SS - Mao would be 8.5, Anna 7.5
TR - Mao 8.0, Anna 7.5
CH - Mao 9.0, Anna 2.0
PE - Mao 8.5, Anna 6.0
IN - Mao 8.5, Anna 1.0

LMAO, why not give Mao 9.75 for PE/TR/SS and 10.00 for CH/IN?! Given you would give Anna IN 1.0 and CH 2.0, clearly no mark is too outrageous, lol.