New short a ‘release’ for Duhamel & Radford

[skylark]

The clip of their "Killer" program is fabulous; I love how Julie M. has made interesting shapes with their juxtaposed bodies. well, that was only a few seconds of the clip; I also liked the speed, the hops. My immediate thought was that the music and movement displays their style and their talents beautifully.

But pairs skating wasn't boring before D/R started pushing the tech. Anyone who says that if pairs did identical elements the discipline would be boring either (1) must not have watched pairs historically, or (2) is most interested in the technical side of skating.

I love both. I'm bored with the sentence "figure skating is a sport, after all." Figure skating is a unique sport because it combines the technical with the ability of the skaters to transfer emotion to audiences, live or tv. This doesn't exclude Meagan and Eric; the emotions they convey are simply different ones. I agree that some of Meagan's air positions aren't pretty, and I have to look away during one of her positions in the combination spin. But this is a problem with the rules, which reward difficulty over any other considerations such as harmony of movement, line, juxtaposition, and beauty.

I don't like the rule that rewards the catch-foot in a lift. Talk about something that makes all the programs look alike! Now there's apparently a rule change in the works(?) that bans the biellman position in a death spiral. Go back to 1992 olympics to watch that done by Mishkutenok and Dmitriev. When they did it, it was uniquely beautiful, and it expressed something in the music in that moment.

Originality, creativity and attention to skaters' talents can make everyone's programs completely different. But those values are rewarded in the artistic mark, which presently can get lost in components scoring being subservient to the technical.

The emphasis on quads (pairs and men) and 3Axels (women) happens because the rules in place reward risk over quality. They also put musical interpretation, performance values, and connection with audiences on the back burner compared to the technical. I think separating the two parts of the whole, as in one poster who wants singles skating to be about pushing technique while relying on pairs and dance for beauty, does a disservice to all the disciplines. Figure skating has always been about how skaters are able to inspire emotion through technique AND artistry.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Exactly. The balletic line and style isn't the only one.

Agreed. Most of the criticism for D&R is that they don't have the "look" of a classic pair. Or the chemistry of a classic pair. Or the jumps of a classic pair. Or the throws of a classic pair.

Maybe they're trying to be a CURRENT pair instead of a classic pair. Just a thought.

 

[noskates]

The emphasis on quads (pairs and men) and 3Axels (women) happens because the rules in place reward risk over quality. They also put musical interpretation, performance values, and connection with audiences on the back burner compared to the technical. I think separating the two parts of the whole, as in one poster who wants singles skating to be about pushing technique while relying on pairs and dance for beauty, does a disservice to all the disciplines. Figure skating has always been about how skaters are able to inspire emotion through technique AND artistry.

VERY well said!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Because it is a negative when the team is pushing the technical boundary while not doing a thing about artistry (i.e., the components). That is why it is negative. They would love nothing more than for jumps to get a higher base value (they shouldn't). Of course, many of the judges are at fault for this because why substantively work (or work at all) on improving the artistic side of your skating, the skating skills, etc. when you're already getting unwarranted marks. There would be no issue if this weren't the case.

Also, FYI: she will get tired before I do, you can be sure of that.

Nah, Meagan's vegan powers will keep her going way longer than you ever could hope to go.

LOL, just admit it - you don't see improvement in them because you are willfully against them and even if they did improve to your all-knowing, very astute, non-petty and non-biased standards (lol) you would never in a million years admit it. The fact that you're saying Jin is actively trying to improve his artistry, and D&R aren't - when there are literally videos of them saying/showing they're trying to improve their emotional connection... and the judges are giving them better marks accordingly - says a lot.

So far you're just 1 person in this thread campaigning so actively against them. Coincidentally, that's 1 less than the number of World titles Duhamel & Radford have so far. I suppose you'd dismiss it as "just a two-off"?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

The emphasis on quads (pairs and men) and 3Axels (women) happens because the rules in place reward risk over quality. They also put musical interpretation, performance values, and connection with audiences on the back burner compared to the technical. I think separating the two parts of the whole, as in one poster who wants singles skating to be about pushing technique while relying on pairs and dance for beauty, does a disservice to all the disciplines. Figure skating has always been about how skaters are able to inspire emotion through technique AND artistry.

Yes, but on that note, people aren't giving somebody like Jason Brown the same heat that they give D&R for putting his technical progress on the back burner to establish himself artistically. And I mean that sarcastically, because obviously these skaters are trying to progress all aspects of their skating - they train so long for it. Just because they add a quad in there doesn't mean they're not making efforts to improve artistically. Just because they're one of the most artistic skaters who is inconsistent technically doesn't mean they're focusing too much on artistry and not working hard enough to improve their difficulty and consistency.

Artistry is a slow burning process and there isn't a magical "switch" usually. Whereas one way skaters can pick up points to place higher and win (which, let's face it, is what matters most) is to up their technical game.

 

[LRK]

The clip of their "Killer" program is fabulous; I love how Julie M. has made interesting shapes with their juxtaposed bodies. well, that was only a few seconds of the clip; I also liked the speed, the hops. My immediate thought was that the music and movement displays their style and their talents beautifully.

But pairs skating wasn't boring before D/R started pushing the tech. Anyone who says that if pairs did identical elements the discipline would be boring either (1) must not have watched pairs historically, or (2) is most interested in the technical side of skating.

I love both. I'm bored with the sentence "figure skating is a sport, after all." Figure skating is a unique sport because it combines the technical with the ability of the skaters to transfer emotion to audiences, live or tv. This doesn't exclude Meagan and Eric; the emotions they convey are simply different ones. I agree that some of Meagan's air positions aren't pretty, and I have to look away during one of her positions in the combination spin. But this is a problem with the rules, which reward difficulty over any other considerations such as harmony of movement, line, juxtaposition, and beauty.

I don't like the rule that rewards the catch-foot in a lift. Talk about something that makes all the programs look alike! Now there's apparently a rule change in the works(?) that bans the biellman position in a death spiral. Go back to 1992 olympics to watch that done by Mishkutenok and Dmitriev. When they did it, it was uniquely beautiful, and it expressed something in the music in that moment.

Originality, creativity and attention to skaters' talents can make everyone's programs completely different. But those values are rewarded in the artistic mark, which presently can get lost in components scoring being subservient to the technical.

The emphasis on quads (pairs and men) and 3Axels (women) happens because the rules in place reward risk over quality. They also put musical interpretation, performance values, and connection with audiences on the back burner compared to the technical. I think separating the two parts of the whole, as in one poster who wants singles skating to be about pushing technique while relying on pairs and dance for beauty, does a disservice to all the disciplines. Figure skating has always been about how skaters are able to inspire emotion through technique AND artistry.

With the risk of going OT... I just must note that I disagree that there is any emphasis on the 3A in women. Mao does them, and Liza has done them - but while Mao was away, and before Liza began, the jump was extinct. There were no women doing 3As. This might very well happen again. The difference between the quad situation among men and the 3A among women is huge.

 

[Mista Ekko]

The emphasis on quads (pairs and men) and 3Axels (women) happens because the rules in place reward risk over quality

I dunno, Quads really aren't worth it in Pairs, They're not scored as high as in singles and a bad execution
of a Quad is worth less than a decent execution of that same triple, Which is substantially easier to pull off,

Almost the same for 3A , But at least if you can pull it off you can use it in the Short

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I dunno, Quads really aren't worth it in Pairs, They're not scored as high as in singles and a bad execution
of a Quad is worth less than a decent execution of that same triple, Which is substantially easier to pull off,

Almost the same for 3A , But at least if you can pull it off you can use it in the Short

Quads are definitely not worth it... which makes it that much more impressive that pairs are still going for them. People are also up in arms about quad putting teams at such an advantage that force other teams to adapt, but the reality is, they only gain maybe 3 or 4 points from it -- far less than many margins of victory.

Also, gotta love how when Sui and Han started pushing the throw quad as juniors, or the Zhangs, or Ding/Ren, people applaud them for it... but when D&R start doing it, and more consistently, these same people complain that it's ruining the sport. And of course, nobody's complaining about Kavaguti/Smirnov going for two quad throws, which pushes the risk factor even more.

 

[LRK]

Quads are definitely not worth it... which makes it that much more impressive that pairs are still going for them. People are also up in arms about quad putting teams at such an advantage that force other teams to adapt, but the reality is, they only gain maybe 3 or 4 points from it -- far less than many margins of victory.

Also, gotta love how when Sui and Han started pushing the throw quad as juniors, or the Zhangs, or Ding/Ren, people applaud them for it... but when D&R start doing it, and more consistently, these same people complain that it's ruining the sport. And of course, nobody's complaining about Kavaguti/Smirnov going for two quad throws, which pushes the risk factor even more.

That's because most people ignore Kavaguti/Smirnov entirely. There was a thread where the discussion was Duhamel/Radford versus Russian pairs. The first mention of K/S was actually in a linked article where Meaghan referenced them. Quite often in pairs discussion - especcially when discussing "Russian pairs" and their lack of technical difficulty - people seem to forget K/S's existence entirely.

Shrug.

If people ignore you, at least you don't get heavily criticised, I suppose.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

And I remember pairs skating in the 2000s, the Zhangs did not have many fans. I wasn't a fan either. Do people remember Ding/Ren? I also think things would be different if the Ding/Ren won Worlds and if people felt they had real deficiencies to their skating. Even Shen/Zhao weren't above critique before 2003 and after 2003, many comparing their cleanliness of lifts, spins, and even throws (the way Hongbo jumped at the launch) unfavorably to the Russian pairs who were very clean in their execution. Wasn't that one of the reasons people gave to explain why Sale/Pelletier leap-frogged over Shen/Zhao by the 2000/2001 season? Their skating was a lot cleaner and artistic despite Shen/Zhao having superior throws and attempting more difficult jumping passes (and often delivering them compared to Jamie)?

 

[demarinis5]

Great read. Thanks for sharing.

D/R are excellent technicians and skaters and I am looking forward to see what
they do with their new SP. Love their music choice.

@VietgrlTerifa I totally agree with you about S/Z. I was a big fan of their athleticism and technique when they first appeared
on the senior circuit and thought they were fabulous alas the judges did not. They did not have the benefit of COP system back then.

 

[skylark]

With the risk of going OT... I just must note that I disagree that there is any emphasis on the 3A in women. Mao does them, and Liza has done them - but while Mao was away, and before Liza began, the jump was extinct. There were no women doing 3As. This might very well happen again. The difference between the quad situation among men and the 3A among women is huge.

Not extinct ... only dormant. :handw:

But, you're right about the difference ie quads/men and 3A/women. My points about quads and 3A were meant to be only a sub-category of my remarks about technique, performance values, etc.

 

[LRK]

Not extinct ... only dormant. :handw:

But, you're right about the difference ie quads/men and 3A/women. My points about quads and 3A were meant to be only a sub-category of my remarks about technique, performance values, etc.

Yes, I realise that, and that was one of the reasons I was a bit hesitant about commenting on it - but "I can resist anything except temptation".

Just as an addendum, I'd say that the equivalent of the quad among men is the triple-triple among women. I mean, just ask Ashley.

And I'll shut up on the topic now, and apologies to you and everyone for the OT.

 

[Mathman]

Then, something happened. As I was watching the 2015-2016 GPF, I caught the SP of Seguin/Bilodeau and I was utterly amazed by them. To me, they had that magic I felt pairs was missing for a long time….

You know who else had a great performance last year? Kayne and O'Shea at U.S. Nationals. OK, they havn't been competitive internationally, but both programs at U.S. Nationals were really satisfying.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You know who else had a great performance last year? Kayne and O'Shea at U.S. Nationals. OK, they havn't been competitive internationally, but both programs at U.S. Nationals were really satisfying.

It was great to see them skate well. Scimeca/Knierim were not strong at all so I'm sure the spectators were glad to see the top US pair have such solid performances.

 

[skylark]

That's because most people ignore Kavaguti/Smirnov entirely. There was a thread where the discussion was Duhamel/Radford versus Russian pairs. The first mention of K/S was actually in a linked article where Meaghan referenced them. Quite often in pairs discussion - especcially when discussing "Russian pairs" and their lack of technical difficulty - people seem to forget K/S's existence entirely.

I can't speak for others, but I can hardly bear to watch Yuko because I'm so afraid she'll break in two before my eyes. I don't want to see her pop her shoulder back into place if she dislocates it, and whenever she falls, I'm So I think there's some unconscious forgetfulness (denial) going on with me, at least, even in conversations.

I used to love Yuko and Sasha. I still love to watch Sasha skate, but he's constantly drawing one's attention to Yuko, just as a pairs man is supposed to do! So.

 

[LRK]

I can't speak for others, but I can hardly bear to watch Yuko because I'm so afraid she'll break in two before my eyes. I don't want to see her pop her shoulder back into place if she dislocates it, and whenever she falls, I'm So I think there's some unconscious forgetfulness (denial) going on with me, at least, even in conversations.

I used to love Yuko and Sasha. I still love to watch Sasha skate, but he's constantly drawing one's attention to Yuko, just as a pairs man is supposed to do! So.

I adore them - they are my Favourite pair. And Yuko is... fierce. You should read what Arriba627 reported from a recent article. She isn't going down without a fight.

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...nder-Smirnov&p=1468877&viewfull=1#post1468877

The general forgetfulness I think is, I believe, because people no longer take them seriously as contenders, or threats for Worlds'. I'm accustomed that none of the pairs I like best win things, so this doesn't really bother me - though I'm thrilled at any and every success they do have. But I do notice how little notice they garner - even when one would think that they would naturally be germain to the discussion.

Not that I'm complaining, mind you, that they aren't being bashed enough. But there should be some advantages to obscurity, at least - which was the point I was making with my post.

 

[lyverbird1]

Saw the thread title and knew it would be filled with the usual bile of one particular poster, no surprises there. His rather personal swipes at this pair are tiresome, unconstructive and pretty disgusting. I've never seen someone on these boards go after a skater or team in such a personal and bitter way. We all have our opinions and they often involve waxing unlyrically against skaters we don't like but his attacks on Duhamel and Radford are the worst I've ever seen here by a long, long way...

 

[Mista Ekko]

Saw the thread title and knew it would be filled with the usual bile of one particular poster, no surprises there. His rather personal swipes at this pair are tiresome, unconstructive and pretty disgusting. I've never seen someone on these boards go after a skater or team in such a personal and bitter way. We all have our opinions and they often involve waxing unlyrically against skaters we don't like but his attacks on Duhamel and Radford are the worst I've ever seen here by a long, long way...

Don't worry about it, I think a mod erased like a full page of it, Back to topic

 

[moriel]

That's because most people ignore Kavaguti/Smirnov entirely. There was a thread where the discussion was Duhamel/Radford versus Russian pairs. The first mention of K/S was actually in a linked article where Meaghan referenced them. Quite often in pairs discussion - especcially when discussing "Russian pairs" and their lack of technical difficulty - people seem to forget K/S's existence entirely.

Shrug.

If people ignore you, at least you don't get heavily criticised, I suppose.

Imho, about Kavaguti / Smirnov. They are one of the pairs who would be better without quads, but then they had to pull them out to remain competitive or something like that =(