This Carol Lane interview with PJ Kwong is up on YouTube
It has so much in it! It was well worth listening to the whole thing.
It has so much in it! It was well worth listening to the whole thing.
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this was a beautiful moment. I watched the entire interview... I never do that... especially when they are 50 minutes long ( I have a lot of short moments when I can create trouble, for instance on this forum, where i can post a thing or two.. then come back later.. but to have a full hour or almost to watch an interview is rare) in any case... It was lovely that Carol took the opportunity to mention you and what you do.Immediately got picked up though as Coach Carol Lane gave me a shoutout at the end of Facebook live with PJ Kwong today. Beyond grateful.
I agree with PJ about PC but their Fauré program is definitely memorable. For me, that's their masterpiece and I'd put it on the same level as some of the other great teams' masterpieces... for instance, the iconic Mahler by very young VM.I was particularly interested in Carol and PJ's discussion on what made a program or a team the best.
It reminded me of how much the guidelines for ice dance have changed over the years, and how our skaters today line up with the best traits of past champions.
They talked about how at the highest level, there are very few major errors. All the skaters can do all the steps. What differentiates skaters is bound to have a subjective component.
PJ said (more or less) that at this point in her life, the programs she thought were the best were those where at a distance of years, she could remember them clearly. She implied that though Papadakis & Cizeron were wonderful skaters, with great speed and flowing edges, she did not find many of their programs memorable.
Flow, sharp edges, and speed define one group of champions, like P&C, and before them, Grishuk & Platov. And I would put Guignard and Fabbri in that group. I respect them all, but I have never valued speed over being memorable.
I think that's why I can put PC's in there...emotion for me can be enough. No need for a story.There are those who excel at story telling (like Piper & Paul, especially well displayed in their Vincent & Wuthering Heights FDs). PJ grouped Torvill & Dean, Virtue & Moir, and Klimova & Ponomarenko in this group. These are her preferences. I too really value programs for being memorable, but there are more ways to be memorable than only story telling.
I didn't find CB's poses that unique this year. I liked them in previous programs better. The opening pose and candle lifts are things I believe were used before. Their stat lift was a miss. I agree their Snake Dance is very memorable. I liked their alien program too. From the rink, I'd just say that I would like their FD better if it were going in places... it felt quite static... which I wouldn't equate to figure skating, or emotion or story telling. I don't think I will remember much from that program in a few years from now.Creativity in movement and in what used to be referred to as creating unique shapes & pictures on the ice is another championship quality they did not mention. Torvill & Dean excelled at it. And so do Chock & Bates. When you increase the number of choreo moves & complex lifts in a program, you are just asking for C&B to earn high scores. In their FD, their opening pose, their assisted jump move and their candle lift both created memorable pictures. Their Snake Dance FD was one whole unforgettable set of pictures.
Yes. As a LaLa fan, I am asking for faster and faster and better and better unison. That's where for me the Brits are not as good as some other teams. It's very apparent.Another skill that is deemphasized now is the ability to be spot on the beat while maintaining unison, no matter how fast the beat is. Not every team excels at music with a quick beat. Davis & White were particularly good at it. This is a skill that in the past was key in Original Dances, Short Dances, and Rhythm Dances. And it is still a skill that I value highly. The dancers become a visible expression of the music to me. I still remember D&W's Giselle/ Yankee Polka SD with great fondness.
I know very little about solo ice dance, except that men and women compete against each other.
Oh please ! There are so few men participating and they perform elements that are easily comparable... Just like in traditional ice dance, twizzles and steps are getting scored individually and as a matter of fact, it happens quite often that the women get higher levels than the men.
If this sport has any chance to get added to worlds or olympics one day, it should be unisex.. this is exactly what the IOC is hoping to see..with all the mixed diving and what not.
And don't get me started about nobody cares if it doesn't go "mainstream i.e Olympics" because actually, if ever it did become an Olympic sport it would get funded and seen. I believe sincerely that solo dance is perhaps the future of figure skating in terms of participation. Not everyone has the ability nor the body to jump quads... It's a sport that wrecks knees and hips like no other... Not everyone wants to be thrown or lifted... not everyone can afford the resources needed to train with a partner, especially at a younger age and development stage.
Let the boys compete with the girls. Seriously. If the young men won, didn't you think for one second that it's because he was better than the other participants ? At one point, don't you think that it is quite possible that a strong woman skater could beat a bunch of men too ? If anything, women may have better lines and extension which are needed in ice dance.
how is their hardwork not recognized ?I actually agree with practically all of what you are saying here. Except for the having it unisex bit.
As you can see from the comments I quoted, all of the possible scenarios played out at the Maria Olszewska Memorial:
- In the Seniors, it was the male skater that was way ahead of the female skaters.
- In Basic Novices, the girls had the advantage over the boys.
- In the Adult skating, the male skater and the top female skater were well matched.
I should add, the Intermediate Novice and Junior Solo Dance competitions were all girls.
But I still think that the top 3 female skaters and the top 3 male skaters at each level deserve to get recognition for their achievements. It must be so demoralising to put in the hard work, and then not get recognised for it.
CaroLiza_fan
how is their hardwork not recognized ?
I guess you don't like women competing in car racing, equestiran or music competitions ? I think it's great that women and men can push themselves. The 4th placed skater, no matter if they are a man or a woman or intersex, has to improve to get a medal... that's all.
rewards doesn't necessarily mean medalsI don't have any problems with them competing together. I just want them to get rewarded and recognised for their efforts.
CaroLiza_fan
rewards doesn't necessarily means medals
What appeals to me about solo ice dance is that it isn't divided by gender. Part of the reason Kaitlyn Weaver pushed for Skate Canada to change the definitions of partnerships for ice dance and pairs was for Timothy LeDuc, who is non-binary. They had to compete under a gender definition that is not their identity.
Solo ice dance includes those skaters who don't identify as a man or a woman and shouldn't have to force themselves to fit a gender category. Solo ice dance is just starting to have international competitions, it'd be better to have as many competitors as possible. That's more important than an unnecessary division based on gender.
I think the advantage men may have is over stated. In ice dance, lines, extension and flexibility are huge assets... and women have the edge here. You cannot compare this with track and field. Sorry. It makes no sense at all. You can already see it in synchro skating or artistic swimming... men exist there.. women are better usually.About the gender question: I believe it's really not so easy. On the one hand biological men do have an athletic advantage over women which will ultimately show in ice dance as well, even if their social gender is female. It's just that there are so many more women in the sport that the pool of women is just way bigger. Were there the same number of biological men and women the men would on average dominate and to say "the women just need to work harder" doesn't cut it - would you say the same to a female sprinter who is not able to reach the best men's times? On the other hand I asbolutely support integrating nonbinary/intersex people into the sport. For me it's really not easy to say whether there should be one category for all. I guess as long as the sport is so small it's all fine, but should it ever become a lot bigger (which I just don't expect) binary, biological born women would lose out, and it would be tough to make the decision that this is the way it is supposed to be. I would like to look for a completely different solution to organize the categories.
I don't need storytelling myself. I like connection though. The best storytelling at worlds was very clearly done by Piper and Paul... Sure, they won the free dance but they won it on their technical merits.. YUP... can you believe it ? They lost PCS to Chock and Bates. So I don't think the judges reward storytelling that much really.Well, on to the question of ice dance qualities: I much prefer the abstract dances. I think most of my favourite programs (not all of them) are such where I'm drawn into the flow of movement without a story. Storytelling is all fine however. I think it should simply not be a criterium for judging whether or not there was storytelling, whether or not I am attracted to this style. Technical abilities as shown by the skaters are what the programs should be judged on. Leave the rest to tv shows.
I think the advantage men may have is over stated. In ice dance, lines, extension and flexibility are huge assets... and women have the edge here. You cannot compare this with track and field. Sorry. It makes no sense at all. You can already see it in synchro skating or artistic swimming... men exist there.. women are better usually.