State of U.S. Ladies' skating 2016-17

[skylark]

People need to stop saying Ashley's technique is a problem. Her technique is gorgeous. When she jumps there is so much power and beauty. It is just better to watch than bent legs/big knees, unpointed toes, jacknife landings, etc. that get positive GOEs.

Raf has got her going. Her 3Lo-lo-3S was the highest scoring element at worlds - higher than anything Med did. Like to see her next year with 3L-3Lo.

She's done it one year. Can she keep up the discipline for another 2 years? It'll be a challenge

:agree::agree::agree: Oh, I so agree that Ashley's technique is gorgeous and so much better to watch than many others who are rewarded for completed rotations when they're actually ugly or just blah to watch.

And I love it that her 3Lo-lo-3S was the highest scoring element. It's so stunning, and light as a feather. That's another thing I love, when jumps are light and airy, so you can just enjoy the program.

I'm pretty sure I watched a program from 2007 or 2008 where Ashley did do 3Lutz-3Loop. That was back in the day, when flutzy edges were remarked on, but not penalized as heavily as they are today. Or maybe her lutz edge was better when she was younger, I didn't scrutinize it that closely.

 

[badknees]

^^^ Your entire post, times a thousand!

Ashley's presence and charm absolutely do elevate her and make her go soaring above and beyond. This is sport, so the technique has to be there, and it has to be solid. This is what has held her back in the past. My hope for her is that she can build on her fabulous performances at Worlds, and use them to reinforce her belief that she can put two great programs together at a competition. I find it very encouraging that she said in the Worlds presser that she's always been a performer first and always will be; and that she needs and plans to continue to improve her technique. Figure skating is a performance art.

Last summer, Ashley had to skate in a lot of shows to earn money to get her through the next season. (She's financially independent from her parents and has been since she was 18.) Because of her schedule with all the shows, there was only time to create and develop a new SP. And anyway, she believed ... rightly, as it turned out ... that she had more to give to the Moulin Rouge program. That program held great meaning for her. A positive note on the finance side: Ashley just won $15,000 at the TCC, and I don't know what the prize money is for Worlds. But whatever it is, it's income she hasn't had in the past but, this year, does. So I think that bodes well for two new programs for next season. They don't come cheap, when you pay a genius choreographer, coaches, coaches' travel expenses, and costumes!

Found the Worlds prize money.
Prize Money

The ISU awards a global prize money of US$ 686,750 at the World Championships to skaters/couples placed 1st to 12th in Men and Ladies, 1st to 8th in Pair Skating and 1st to 10th in Ice Dance. The prize money is awarded to winners and placed skaters/couples as follows:

Men and Ladies Pairs and Dance (per couple)
1st place US$ 45,000 1st place US$ 67,500
2nd place US$ 27,000 2nd place US$ 40,500
3rd place US$ 18,000 3rd place US$ 27,000
4th place US$ 13,000 4th place US$ 19,500
5th place US$ 10,000 5th place US$ 15,000
6th place US$ 7,000 6th place US$ 10,500
7th place US$ 6,000 7th place US$ 9,000
8th place US$ 5,000 8th place US$ 7,500
9th place US$ 3,500 9th place US$ 5,250 (only Ice Dance)
10th place US$ 3,000 10th place US$ 4,500 (only Ice Dance)
11th place US$ 2,500
12th place US$ 2,000

I believe Ashley got $7000 for the first day at TCC and $15000 for the 2nd day.
Does she earn any money with her sponsors?

 

[KatGrace1925]

I recall Skate Detroit?

No Rippon Lutz at the 2012 Skate Detroit, but she does do a Tano arm in a double toe.

 

[koatcue]

People need to stop saying Ashley's technique is a problem. Her technique is gorgeous. When she jumps there is so much power and beauty. It is just better to watch than bent legs/big knees, unpointed toes, jacknife landings, etc. that get positive GOEs.

Raf has got her going. Her 3Lo-lo-3S was the highest scoring element at worlds - higher than anything Med did. Like to see her next year with 3L-3Lo.

She's done it one year. Can she keep up the discipline for another 2 years? It'll be a challenge

Oh my Her technique is far from ideal, believe me or slo-mo, which is even more reliable. And also, her chances to score this high with such skate with URs, slow spins, mediocre skills in other country is close to zero. She was gifted at worlds in points.

 

[moriel]

People need to stop saying Ashley's technique is a problem. Her technique is gorgeous. When she jumps there is so much power and beauty. It is just better to watch than bent legs/big knees, unpointed toes, jacknife landings, etc. that get positive GOEs.

Raf has got her going. Her 3Lo-lo-3S was the highest scoring element at worlds - higher than anything Med did. Like to see her next year with 3L-3Lo.

She's done it one year. Can she keep up the discipline for another 2 years? It'll be a challenge

Well, as for her technique... URs and more URs, unfortunately. As for her 3Lo-lo-3S, yes, it was probably the highest scoring element among ladies this season, but one high scoring element doesn´t make a high score by itself - you need everything else up to it, including all other jumps.

Also, counts the ability of doing it consistently.

 

[skylark]

Found the Worlds prize money.
Prize Money

The ISU awards a global prize money of US$ 686,750 at the World Championships to skaters/couples placed 1st to 12th in Men and Ladies, 1st to 8th in Pair Skating and 1st to 10th in Ice Dance. The prize money is awarded to winners and placed skaters/couples as follows:

Men and Ladies Pairs and Dance (per couple)
1st place US$ 45,000 1st place US$ 67,500
2nd place US$ 27,000 2nd place US$ 40,500
3rd place US$ 18,000 3rd place US$ 27,000
4th place US$ 13,000 4th place US$ 19,500
5th place US$ 10,000 5th place US$ 15,000
6th place US$ 7,000 6th place US$ 10,500
7th place US$ 6,000 7th place US$ 9,000
8th place US$ 5,000 8th place US$ 7,500
9th place US$ 3,500 9th place US$ 5,250 (only Ice Dance)
10th place US$ 3,000 10th place US$ 4,500 (only Ice Dance)
11th place US$ 2,500
12th place US$ 2,000

I believe Ashley got $7000 for the first day at TCC and $15000 for the 2nd day.
Does she earn any money with her sponsors?

thanks for looking up this interesting data. I've never paid any attention to the money before, and I only knew about the TCC 2nd day (team score) earnings because the IN article said each USA team member earned $15,000. Makes sense that she earned a separate fee for the 1st day.

I'm glad to know that the first 12 (or 10, or 8) placers at Worlds earn prize money. And I have no idea about sponsor $ or how that works.

 

[karlowens2]

Oh my Her technique is far from ideal, believe me or slo-mo, which is even more reliable. And also, her chances to score this high with such skate with URs, slow spins, mediocre skills in other country is close to zero. She was gifted at worlds in points.

The scores in the last group were high - everyone was gifted. Her PCS is consistently 1st or 2nd in every competition. UR's are rare. Her position in the air and flowout are strong. Her spins could be improved. But, in what competition where they were judged mediocre? Other countries? - they seem to like ner pretty much in Canada and in Japan her FS received a great score. I don't see how the technique of a skater who received the highest element score could be FAR from ideal.

 

[koatcue]

The scores in the last group were high - everyone was gifted. Her PCS is consistently 1st or 2nd in every competition. UR's are rare. Her position in the air and flowout are strong. Her spins could be improved. But, in what competition where they were judged mediocre? Other countries? - they seem to like ner pretty much in Canada and in Japan her FS received a great score. I don't see how the technique of a skater who received the highest element score could be FAR from ideal.

You shouldn't underestimate the homecooking. Sochi..Boston..People seem to forget. I don't say that she didn't deserve podium, but her goes and overall score was outrageous.

 

[skylark]

People need to stop saying Ashley's technique is a problem. Her technique is gorgeous. When she jumps there is so much power and beauty. It is just better to watch than bent legs/big knees, unpointed toes, jacknife landings, etc. that get positive GOEs.

Raf has got her going. Her 3Lo-lo-3S was the highest scoring element at worlds - higher than anything Med did. Like to see her next year with 3L-3Lo.

She's done it one year. Can she keep up the discipline for another 2 years? It'll be a challenge

You shouldn't underestimate the homecooking. Sochi..Boston..People seem to forget. I don't say that she didn't deserve podium, but her goes and overall score was outrageous.

Ashley was not gifted anything (unless, as karlowens said, you're including the fact that all the women in the final group were gifted with too-high scores).

I know that it's difficult to see, when a skater doesn't "speak" to you. But for many, many audiences and viewers, and a fair number of judges internationally, Ashley's skating is elevated by her musicality, her attention to nuances and details, her emotional engagement with her programs, her charisma and desire to give something to the audience, and the passion with which she skates -- emotional resonance.

As one commentator said at Worlds, I think, on IN: All the PC elements elevate the technique, contributing to GOE, and that's why when PCS go up, GOEs go up, especially when those elements build toward the middle and end of the program. It all adds to the quality and emotional resonance of the skate.

Also, if one is only talking about technique, here's another nugget I got from IN commentator: If the technique (or GOE) of a jump starts out at a very high level, then a slight UR or slight 2-foot will subtract from that level, but the score will still be high, because of where the jump started in the beginning. That's why Ashley's gorgeous technique with power and beauty is (in the eyes of many fans and judges) worth more than full rotations with bent legs, jackknife landings, unpointed toes, bent back, etc.

 

[skylark]

She used to do a Rippon 3lutz in her earlier competitions(the 2012-2013 season) when the 3lutz was the solo jump in her short program.

Do you have a link? I'd love to see that.

I was completely appalled by Gracie's botched Rippon 3lutz in FS at TCC. It looked like it started out as something I've noticed since Jenny&Dave pointed it out: when Gracie gets a little nervous, she throws her arm up at the very beginning of a jump. Jenny called it "jumping with her arm," rather than with her arms closed in around herself, to spin the jump.

If you compare it with Adam's Rippon 3Lutz at worlds: as he began the jump, both arms were down at his sides; then as he carried the jump through, his arms and fists powered upward with strength and grace, to complete the motion high and straight over his head. His arms movements were synchronized with each other for beautiful parallel construction. Simply gorgeous. The how of technique is even more important than the what, IMO.

This is also why I take umbrage at the fact that Medvedeva gets extra credit for her tano jumps. To me, she's just throwing her arm over her head willy-nilly. If you look at Jason's tano 3lutz, it's way above and beyond any of Med's. Like Brian's originally, the position of the arm adds to the beauty of the jump and gives it a special oomph.

 

[dreamsk8]

I think this is the start the US Ladies being back!! I see no reason why Ashley Wagner and Gracie Gold can't maintain their top ranking positions in the 2016/2017 season.
And I think to keep the US Ladies being back strong you need MIRAI NAGASU, POLINA EDMUNDS, COURTNEY HICKS, and KAREN CHEN staying in the mix, sticking it out and continually advancing. You get the years and years of mediocrity and near-misses when skaters break on to the scene and are then gone in a flash. A strong team sticks it out thru the good the bad and the ugly and learns and grows from it.
Keep Going Strong US Ladies!!! :clapper:

 

[rosy14]

Oh my Her technique is far from ideal, believe me or slo-mo, which is even more reliable. And also, her chances to score this high with such skate with URs, slow spins, mediocre skills in other country is close to zero. She was gifted at worlds in points.

When she skates clean, she gets high scores abraod too. See Skate Canada 2015, but also GP final.

 

[koatcue]

Ashley was not gifted anything (unless, as karlowens said, you're including the fact that all the women in the final group were gifted with too-high scores).

I know that it's difficult to see, when a skater doesn't "speak" to you. But for many, many audiences and viewers, and a fair number of judges internationally, Ashley's skating is elevated by her musicality, her attention to nuances and details, her emotional engagement with her programs, her charisma and desire to give something to the audience, and the passion with which she skates -- emotional resonance.

As one commentator said at Worlds, I think, on IN: All the PC elements elevate the technique, contributing to GOE, and that's why when PCS go up, GOEs go up, especially when those elements build toward the middle and end of the program. It all adds to the quality and emotional resonance of the skate.

Also, if one is only talking about technique, here's another nugget I got from IN commentator: If the technique (or GOE) of a jump starts out at a very high level, then a slight UR or slight 2-foot will subtract from that level, but the score will still be high, because of where the jump started in the beginning. That's why Ashley's gorgeous technique with power and beauty is (in the eyes of many fans and judges) worth more than full rotations with bent legs, jackknife landings, unpointed toes, bent back, etc.

Sorry, not a big fan of Ur jumps.

 

[koatcue]

When she skates clean, she gets high scores abraod too. See Skate Canada 2015, but also GP final.

She never scored 140. Her best cleaner skate was 139,if you want to aknowledge her previous scores..

 

[johnsmith72]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IAHHpRcsuI

Do you have a link? I'd love to see that.

I was completely appalled by Gracie's botched Rippon 3lutz in FS at TCC. It looked like it started out as something I've noticed since Jenny&Dave pointed it out: when Gracie gets a little nervous, she throws her arm up at the very beginning of a jump. Jenny called it "jumping with her arm," rather than with her arms closed in around herself, to spin the jump.

If you compare it with Adam's Rippon 3Lutz at worlds: as he began the jump, both arms were down at his sides; then as he carried the jump through, his arms and fists powered upward with strength and grace, to complete the motion high and straight over his head. His arms movements were synchronized with each other for beautiful parallel construction. Simply gorgeous. The how of technique is even more important than the what, IMO.

This is also why I take umbrage at the fact that Medvedeva gets extra credit for her tano jumps. To me, she's just throwing her arm over her head willy-nilly. If you look at Jason's tano 3lutz, it's way above and beyond any of Med's. Like Brian's originally, the position of the arm adds to the beauty of the jump and gives it a special oomph.

Here is a link to her rippon lutz at Skate Detroit. While the landing isn't ideal with very little flow, the actual arm variation is very beautiful. I have definitely seen other videos of her doing the lutz with arms aloft in compitition(with a smoother landing), but I can't find them right now...

 

[lyndichee]

Do you have a link? I'd love to see that.

I was completely appalled by Gracie's botched Rippon 3lutz in FS at TCC. It looked like it started out as something I've noticed since Jenny&Dave pointed it out: when Gracie gets a little nervous, she throws her arm up at the very beginning of a jump. Jenny called it "jumping with her arm," rather than with her arms closed in around herself, to spin the jump.

If you compare it with Adam's Rippon 3Lutz at worlds: as he began the jump, both arms were down at his sides; then as he carried the jump through, his arms and fists powered upward with strength and grace, to complete the motion high and straight over his head. His arms movements were synchronized with each other for beautiful parallel construction. Simply gorgeous. The how of technique is even more important than the what, IMO.

This is also why I take umbrage at the fact that Medvedeva gets extra credit for her tano jumps. To me, she's just throwing her arm over her head willy-nilly. If you look at Jason's tano 3lutz, it's way above and beyond any of Med's. Like Brian's originally, the position of the arm adds to the beauty of the jump and gives it a special oomph.

I think it is a little dramatic to say that you are appalled by a jump attempt. Maybe it's the lack of tone we can convey from forums.

I was actually really proud of Gracie for going for the Rippon Lutz. She posts so many videos of it in practice and it seems like one of her favourite things to do on her own time. I feel like audiences and coaches have these weird boxed in expectations for her that limit her as this girly skater but she can be powerful too. Maybe technique was not ideal but she went for something that put her out of her comfort zone. That's the type of Gracie I hope I can see more often.

It is the reason why I appreciate Ashley's skating so much. Her technique is not ideal for many jumps and her spins can get slow and wobbly but there's nothing in her program that she doesn't fight for and whatever is out on the ice, it is something Ashley explicitly wants. I wish that Gracie can learn a little bit from that and I hope she keeps trying her favourite combo in the future.

 

[rosy14]

She never scored 140. Her best cleaner skate was 139,if you want to aknowledge her previous scores..

Oh, she scored 139, quite lower than 140!!!! We ought to apply a t-test to see if it's statistically significant...

 

[koatcue]

Oh, she scored 139, quite lower than 140!!!! We ought to apply a t-test to see if it's statistically significant...

yep

 

[skylark]

I think it is a little dramatic to say that you are appalled by a jump attempt. Maybe it's the lack of tone we can convey from forums.

I was actually really proud of Gracie for going for the Rippon Lutz. She posts so many videos of it in practice and it seems like one of her favourite things to do on her own time. I feel like audiences and coaches have these weird boxed in expectations for her that limit her as this girly skater but she can be powerful too. Maybe technique was not ideal but she went for something that put her out of her comfort zone. That's the type of Gracie I hope I can see more often.

It is the reason why I appreciate Ashley's skating so much. Her technique is not ideal for many jumps and her spins can get slow and wobbly but there's nothing in her program that she doesn't fight for and whatever is out on the ice, it is something Ashley explicitly wants. I wish that Gracie can learn a little bit from that and I hope she keeps trying her favourite combo in the future.

Good points, lyndichee. I'm amused, though, by your complaint about my tone. Compared to so very many posts ... derisive, etc. around this forum.

My use of the word "appalled" may sound dramatic to you, but to me it's just an accurate statement of what I felt. I think that Gracie's Rippon3Lutz attempt looked out of sync with the rest of her skating. Gracie doesn't speak to me as far as her artistry goes, but there are a couple of her qualities that I admire and like. The primary one of those is her technique, as everyone says. In my opinion, the arms thing she tried just contradicted what she was going for with the rest of the program, as a performance. But, as long as the only emotion she conveys is triumph when she completes her jumps ... as was demonstrated at TCC fs by the fact that she finally smiled after the solo 3lutz and the final 3S ... then she's not going to get top marks from me. I can see your point -- if she wasn't going for the performance, but to advance her skating and get one under her belt, so to speak. Or even just that she wanted to do it right then.

Going for it at TCC was a good choice if she wishes, as you say, to claim her figure skating goals for herself, as opposed to what audiences and/or coaches see for her. Maybe a few lessons in good technique on that variation from someone well versed (like Adam, LOL) would be in order. I can't, at the moment, think of any Frank Carroll student who did/does the tano or rippon lutz; maybe it's not particularly on his radar.

ETA: Now that I've watched the 2012 video, I can see that she had the technique. Maybe a couple refresher lessons with her former coach would be best.

 

[skylark]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IAHHpRcsuI

Here is a link to her rippon lutz at Skate Detroit. While the landing isn't ideal with very little flow, the actual arm variation is very beautiful. I have definitely seen other videos of her doing the lutz with arms aloft in compitition(with a smoother landing), but I can't find them right now...

thank you! That is a perfect example of what I meant. Gracie's arms began the jump down at her sides, powering upward and advancing to be quite beautiful at the top.

It's a perfect contrast to her jump at TCC, where she powers the jump from overhead, or as Jenny Kirk said, "jumps with her arm."