This and That: NHK Trophy

[silverlake22]

To be fair, Eurosport tries to stay positive on everyone. We like Yu and Jin as skaters. We don't care for their material. It is simply our opinion. There is more than one judge on a panel. It is nothing against Chinese skaters. I expect Sui and Han to perform very well at the final.

I agree their material could be better and that they are a bit boring but I think they have quite a nice connection on the ice. I like Alexa & Chris's SP a lot, but in the FS, skating after Yu and Jin, it really made me appreciate the balletic and lyrical qualities of Yu/Jin's skating. I'm not saying you have to be balletic and lyrical to be a good skater, and I do think Alexa and Chris are very good skaters, but they do not have a balletic or lyrical style at all and this became very apparent skating right after Yu/Jin in the FS. Yu/Jin lack the dynamic quality that Alexa & Chris do have, but to me, their lines, extension, and posture are in a completely different league than Alexa and Chris. So while I'm tired of the Yu/Jin programs from last season, I do think the style of both programs plays to their strengths as a couple. In comparison, I love Alexa and Chris's SP and think it fits them perfectly, but I'm not sure the FS is a great vehicle for them, through trying to seem elegant they come off as rougher? If that makes sense. After watching the final group of pairs, my thoughts were that Yu/Jin were like ballerinas on ice and S/K were very clunky in comparison. I didn't feel that way at all in the SP though and thought the placements were right.

 

[Ophelia]

Do you think the judges are colluding on this? Or that that ISU is directing them to make sure an American is on the podium? From a publicity/fan-interest standpoint, it would make sense. But from a sports perspective, it would be wrong. Gracie, in my opinion, doesn't need any help to get on the podium except from herself. If she delivers two clean skates, I think she would be a deserving winner.

Idk how they're going to go about it, but we're going to see points inflation. Gracie doesn't necessarily deserve to be a winner if she skates clean if others skate clean as well.

 

[Silvia451]

Can Hanyu replicate that performance again this season?
I hope so

Can the Shibutanis upset Chock and Bates at the Final?
I hope so

 

[yyyskate]

The quality of Yu/Jin's programs are not only ballet lines, but how the music and programs are crafted and worked together with these 2 skaters, that is what makes it so rare/unique theirs (many other pair skaters possess ballet lines as well). Eurosports and CBC commentary summarized really well throughout their different outings. I absolutely agree with every bits of their comments including weakness. that is Yu/Jin need a little bit more speed/flow(skating skills), and at time their connection could be a little lost (not absolutely seamless/integrated yet)

 

[mrrice]

Maxswagg said "Can the Shibutanis upset Chock and Bates at the Final?

They SHOULD be winning over them but for BS reasons..."

I wish I knew more about "Ice Dancing Politics" as they seem quite different than the politics of singles skating. Is this true and, if so, Why? It should be obvious that the Shibutani's will not be doing "Romantic Love Stories" However, they have really come up with creative and difficult programs this year that showcase their technical abilities very well.

 

[Lexiglass]

Idk how they're going to go about it, but we're going to see points inflation. Gracie doesn't necessarily deserve to be a winner if she skates clean if others skate clean as well.

At this point, I'm not really sure who could beat a clean Gracie, save for Mao (who doesn't necessarily have to be clean to beat a clean Gracie, although maybe in Boston). All of the other top ladies have issues as well, and when Gracie goes clean she can be pretty charismatic on the ice. Her jumps are better than most of the field, her spins are great, her footwork is good, and her programs this year are very well choreographed. Would a clean Gracie lose to a clean Evgenia? Skate America makes me think no, and I think that's probably right (Evgenia is great this season, but I think she still has room to grow). Would a clean Gracie lost to a clean Elena? That's hard for me to imagine, honestly, Gracie's skating skills are much better than Elena's. Clean Satoko? Clean Ashley? Liza could beat her with her triple axel, and I think Adelina could beat her if she's able to improve her technical content to Sochi (or even near-Sochi) levels. But generally, if Gracie goes clean I think she would probably deserve to win given the current ladies field.

 

[andromache]

At this point, I'm not really sure who could beat a clean Gracie, save for Mao (who doesn't necessarily have to be clean to beat a clean Gracie, although maybe in Boston). All of the other top ladies have issues as well, and when Gracie goes clean she can be pretty charismatic on the ice. Her jumps are better than most of the field, her spins are great, her footwork is good, and her programs this year are very well choreographed. Would a clean Gracie lose to a clean Evgenia? Skate America makes me think no, and I think that's probably right (Evgenia is great this season, but I think she still has room to grow). Would a clean Gracie lost to a clean Elena? That's hard for me to imagine, honestly, Gracie's skating skills are much better than Elena's. Clean Satoko? Clean Ashley? Liza could beat her with her triple axel, and I think Adelina could beat her if she's able to improve her technical content to Sochi (or even near-Sochi) levels. But generally, if Gracie goes clean I think she would probably deserve to win given the current ladies field.

I'm inclined to agree with this assessment. Gracie's SS, speed, etc., are top-notch compared to Evgenia and Elena, and other posters who have seen her live have noted how Gracie skates big (as opposed to Satoko skating small). A clean Gracie might lose to Evgenia's backloaded jumps, however, even though I think Gracie's jumps (except for the flip) should make up that difference in GoE. And as much as I love the trainwreck Titanic program of Elena's, it shouldn't beat Gracie's Firebird when skated well.

 

[Skater Boy]

I'm inclined to agree with this assessment. Gracie's SS, speed, etc., are top-notch compared to Evgenia and Elena, and other posters who have seen her live have noted how Gracie skates big (as opposed to Satoko skating small). A clean Gracie might lose to Evgenia's backloaded jumps, however, even though I think Gracie's jumps (except for the flip) should make up that difference in GoE. And as much as I love the trainwreck Titanic program of Elena's, it shouldn't beat Gracie's Firebird when skated well.

ITA with Lexiglass and Andromache. I think Gracie can win it all and beat everyone except perhaps if they skate cleanly nor near cleanly in the case of Mao. Liza with her 3A and a clean Oly level or very close to it Pogo probably deserves to beat a clean Gracie but who goes clean other than Hanyu who isn't in the ladies.

 

[mrrice]

I'm inclined to agree with this assessment. Gracie's SS, speed, etc., are top-notch compared to Evgenia and Elena, and other posters who have seen her live have noted how Gracie skates big (as opposed to Satoko skating small). A clean Gracie might lose to Evgenia's backloaded jumps, however, even though I think Gracie's jumps (except for the flip) should make up that difference in GoE. And as much as I love the trainwreck Titanic program of Elena's, it shouldn't beat Gracie's Firebird when skated well.

This statement is completely true. IMO, If Gracie skates two clean programs she will not be beaten. Well, we all know skating. She "Shouldn't" be beaten. Believe it or not, I still haven't seen Mao's Programs. With exception of Mao, a clean Gracie she not just Medal at Worlds. She should Win it all. I take that back..If they both skate perfectly, I'd have give it Sotnikova. I'm still not feeling Rod as Champion. However, she's like the Russian Tara. The girl isn't a choker and if there is the tiniest opening, you know she's walking through the door. I can't wait for Ladies event. The Men....Not so much.

 

[musicfan80]

Does Ashley need to be the underdog?

No, but I wonder if she can compete well when she isn't the dominate favorite. If she was just clean, she would have won here.

How will Ashley and Gracie rank at the final?

Gracie can easily medal if she is clean. I can't see Ashley finishing anything other than 5th or 6th.

Can Hanyu replicate that performance again this season?

It's possible - you have to think his run throughs would have to have been better than his performances. But really, he just has to be clean to win - by a lot.

Should Duhamel and Radford ditch the quad lutz?

Yes - I also think they should work more on "the program". Their programs seem too much like just element, element, element and not also telling a story.

Can the Shibutanis upset Chock and Bates at the Final?

Yes - placing above C/B is their only chance of ever winning U.S. Nationals.

 

[Skatingcat]

Does Ashley need to be the underdog?

Maybe. Not exactly sure. It looks as if the whole NHK women were kind of lackluster. There are rumors (was it substantiated?) that Mao was sick- maybe others were also not feeling well?

How will Ashley and Gracie rank at the final?

It's hard for me to like the GPF this year. With what happened at TEB, I feel like the skaters were cheated, and that the end results are not what they probably would have been had the competition not been truncated (******* terrorists).

I WANT Ashley to win over Gracie. For the Grand Prix, I find it unlikely (but I am hoping she can finish better than 6th, or shock everyone by getting a medal). I'd like Ashley to get a world medal (don't care what color) before she retires, though. And I'm still not connecting to Gracie's programs. I wish I did.


Can Hanyu replicate that performance again this season?

I don't know. I think he will still win everything, but I think he may have peaked this past weekend.

Should Duhamel and Radford ditch the quad lutz?

They won't. I think that it's going to stay no matter what.

Can the Shibutanis upset Chock and Bates at the Final?

Please please please I hope so. Their free dance gets me every time. I want them to medal at Worlds. I think they are the best dancers I've seen this season.

And feedback for the awesome T&T podcast:

I don't mind the laughter when discussing Anna and her falls. It's the kind of thing one laughs at, not because it's funny, but because it's tragically comic; her falls are dramatic and painful; better to laugh than to cry. I like her and I wish she would skate better, but I fear that this season isn't working for her.

I miss the live tweeting TSL used to do. It was fun to read. Also, don't become so measured that the snark "keeping it real" goes away. The commentary on the television (especially in the US) is very disappointing and bland. I like the behind the scenes information you guys give, and how you don't treat the skaters/coaches with kid gloves. Please don't get bland. Your videos (make it a podcast too) are the highlight of my week.

Mao, I think, might come back and win everything. She has yet to peak, and she did take a year off. When she is on, I think she is unbeatable. I am sorry that Murakami didn't make the GPF.

I don't know about technique, but I'm not a fan of so much emphasis placed on the jumps. They ARE important, but I feel like everything else is getting the short shrift. There is more to a program than quads and triple triples.

 

[Ice Dance]

Yes - placing above C/B is their only chance of ever winning U.S. Nationals.

Actually, I disagree. I think the Shibs need to demonstrate that they can defeat Chock and Bates internationally. A placement above C&B in the free, for example, at the GPF could do this. Or let's say these two teams finish back to back at the GPF. Then the U.S. has nothing to lose in having an open, fair Nationals in which the best performance wins. If C&B look to be dropping in the rankings and the Shibs look to be rising, that might well be enough. Dance is a journey. This is one step along the way. Though I am totally rooting for Maia & Alex to get this job done right here at the Grand Prix Final.

IMO, the U.S. has everything to gain by supporting the best dance team on the ice at Nationals. This isn't about Worlds last season. It's about which team has the best chance of reaching the top of that Olympic podium in 2018.

 

[Ophelia]

Can Hanyu replicate that performance again this season?

It's possible - you have to think his run throughs would have to have been better than his performances. But really, he just has to be clean to win - by a lot.

Hanyu doesn't need to be clean to win, or break 300 pts.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I don't mind the laughter when discussing Anna and her falls. It's the kind of thing one laughs at, not because it's funny, but because it's tragically comic; her falls are dramatic and painful; better to laugh than to cry.

At the danger of getting myself into trouble... but no, no and no. Even if you really want to excuse the laughter during the "let's get through all the skaters" part, Jenny picked Annas SP as her moment of the week! You had the ShibSibs getting the highest overall scores in IceDance, you had Hanyu breaking every record in the men. But no, Jennifer Kirks highlight of the week was a young woman hurt, potentially injured and breaking down in tears. That has nothing to do with "better to laugh than to cry", that's downright mockery and cruel. And that's not okay.

I'm sorry for the harsh words, and I'm trying to be respectful - but I have no respect left for a comment like that.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Way to keep it real

 

[Ophelia]

At the danger of getting myself into trouble... but no, no and no. Even if you really want to excuse the laughter during the "let's get through all the skaters" part, Jenny picked Annas SP as her moment of the week! You had the ShibSibs getting the highest overall scores in IceDance, you had Hanyu breaking every record in the men. But no, Jennifer Kirks highlight of the week was a young woman hurt, potentially injured and breaking down in tears. That has nothing to do with "better to laugh than to cry", that's downright mockery and cruel. And that's not okay.

Ditto. Alot of times TSL comes off as mean girls-esque.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Pogorilaya is an athlete. I'm sure she's taken as hard if not harder falls. Taking from Tracy Wilson, her falls are spectacular and the degree to which she falls is completely unnecessary. They're so dramatic they ARE funny. Poor thing, but she's not made of glass. A mess but not glass. She'll be fine.

 

[MIM]

Does Ashley need to be the underdog?
She doesn't need to be. She needs to see herself as a champion. She is a US champion and GPF bronze-medalist. She is not an underdog (on paper at least) any more. She should not use that as her excuse or motivation. She has become too good for that.

How will Ashley and Gracie rank at the final?
Still it is hard to tell. Gracie got two amazing programs and she is a total package. I prefer her technical qualities to anyone's in the current field(except Mao), let alone Ashley's. But she never has delivered two clean programs back to back. All her competitors have (except Mao) this season. I still don't think TEB would have been different. It is hard to believe her inconsistency will miraculously improve and podium at the toughest competitions like GPF. Ashley OTOH managed to finish 3rd at the GPF last season, and her total score is the 3rd highest this season. I think Ashley will bronze or pewter this season, too.

Can Hanyu replicate that performance again this season?
Hanyu always has been the young skater with the best BV until Boyang appears. His debut seems to shake up Yuzu and bring the be(a)st out of him. Wile competing with Chan, he slightly got tense. He will face both of them at the GPF, 4CC, WC. I am curious how his program plays out every event. I think Yuzu is a kind of skater who always eager to improve and his performance shows it very well. It is hard to go back for him and he will definitely repeat. I am afraid he actually gets better and the score system does not catch up his evolution.

Should Duhamel and Radford ditch the quad lutz?
No, I think this team gets motivated by an unseizable challenge. There is no rival at the GPF and 4CC for them. Go for it!

Can the Shibutanis upset Chock and Bates at the Final?
:yes2: I saw Maia become a diva on/off the ice. I predict 1. W/P 2. C/L 3. Shibs at the GPF.

 

[essence_of_soy]

I agree with Jenny and Dave's assessment of Hicks' packaging. The funny thing is, after watching Courtney's free skate from NHK, I keep seeing Gabi Seyfert or Hana Maskova from the 1968 Grenoble Olympics.


Gabi Seyfert:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhvTLvVeFsM


Hana Maskova

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0TAuCFhsYE

 

[Franklin99]

How will Ashley and Gracie rank at the final?
Still it is hard to tell. Gracie got two amazing programs and she is a total package. I prefer her technical qualities to anyone's in the current field(except Mao), let alone Ashley's. But she never has delivered two clean programs back to back. All her competitors have (except Mao) this season. I still don't think TEB would have been different. It is hard to believe her inconsistency will miraculously improve and podium at the toughest competitions like GPF. Ashley OTOH managed to finish 3rd at the GPF last season, and her total score is the 3rd highest this season. I think Ashley will bronze or pewter this season, too.

Out of the 6 finalist (plus Rika & Liza) only Radionova (COR) and Satoko (NHK) delivered 2 clean programs in one competition. Rika had a step-out during her LP in COC, Ashley had UR issues in SC, and Evengenia had a fall in both SA & COR.