Nagasu taking lessons with Mishin in CO

[karne]

Josh had a bad gp season to but he was expected to podium too, so it's not like this is just a Mirai thing either.

Huge differences. Joshua was injured. That was why he had withdrawn from CoC (I am retrospectively glad; with his bad luck you just know it would have been HIM involved in the collision), and that was why his performance was so poor at NHK - and even then it was obvious that the two programs were special. Joshua also has an impeccable jump technique, almost never gets < (and only on the 4T nowadays, and then only rarely), and had a fairly solid competitive record until that point.

Whereas Mirai has continued poor technique on her jumps, was not injured, her protocols are littered with < and <<, and her competitive record is spotty at best.

Chalk and cheese.

 

[samm22]

Huge differences. Joshua was injured. That was why he had withdrawn from CoC (I am retrospectively glad; with his bad luck you just know it would have been HIM involved in the collision), and that was why his performance was so poor at NHK - and even then it was obvious that the two programs were special. Joshua also has an impeccable jump technique, almost never gets < (and only on the 4T nowadays, and then only rarely), and had a fairly solid competitive record until that point.

Whereas Mirai has continued poor technique on her jumps, was not injured, her protocols are littered with < and <<, and her competitive record is spotty at best.

Chalk and cheese.

I wouldn't say that Mirai had poor technique on her jumps (compare to a kanako or a julia), but it's a mental game with her. I just dislike how everyone feels the need to discredit Mirai's reasons for not competing to her potential and then is able to validate other skater's excuses as to why they didn't skate so well. Mirai had the flu at 4CC and had just been left off the olympic team. Do you think anyone would have been able to skate WELL under those circumstances? Max had 2 months before worlds to deal with being left off the team. Mirai had a week to get over being left off the team. I was afraid to say that because I know people will jump on that and discredit that reason as well. This thread was not about Mirai's prospects, or her talking about retiring. It was a harmless thread about her working with Mishin. It said nothing about her goals or what she wants to achieve. I think it's just kinda cool that Mishin was working with her. Why can't people say "Oh, OK" and leave it at that. Saying that she should retire/has no future/passed her peak/discrediting the reasons why she hasn't skated well at certain competitions belongs in another thread. Give her some slack! :disapp:

 

[demarinis5]

I wouldn't say that Mirai had poor technique on her jumps (compare to a kanako or a julia), but it's a mental game with her. I just dislike how everyone feels the need to discredit Mirai's reasons for not competing to her potential and then is able to validate other skater's excuses as to why they didn't skate so well. Mirai had the flu at 4CC and had just been left off the olympic team. Do you think anyone would have been able to skate WELL under those circumstances? Max had 2 months before worlds to deal with being left off the team. Mirai had a week to get over being left off the team. I was afraid to say that because I know people will jump on that and discredit that reason as well. This thread was not about Mirai's prospects, or her talking about retiring. It was a harmless thread about her working with Mishin. It said nothing about her goals or what she wants to achieve. I think it's just kinda cool that Mishin was working with her. Why can't people say "Oh, OK" and leave it at that. Saying that she should retire/has no future/passed her peak/discrediting the reasons why she hasn't skated well at certain competitions belongs in another thread. Give her some slack! :disapp:

Amen!

 

[MK's Winter]

I wouldn't say that Mirai had poor technique on her jumps (compare to a kanako or a julia), but it's a mental game with her. I just dislike how everyone feels the need to discredit Mirai's reasons for not competing to her potential and then is able to validate other skater's excuses as to why they didn't skate so well. Mirai had the flu at 4CC and had just been left off the olympic team. Do you think anyone would have been able to skate WELL under those circumstances? Max had 2 months before worlds to deal with being left off the team. Mirai had a week to get over being left off the team. I was afraid to say that because I know people will jump on that and discredit that reason as well. This thread was not about Mirai's prospects, or her talking about retiring. It was a harmless thread about her working with Mishin. It said nothing about her goals or what she wants to achieve. I think it's just kinda cool that Mishin was working with her. Why can't people say "Oh, OK" and leave it at that. Saying that she should retire/has no future/passed her peak/discrediting the reasons why she hasn't skated well at certain competitions belongs in another thread. Give her some slack! :disapp:

Preach!

 

[samm22]

Amen!

Preach!

Thank you!!

 

[karne]

I wouldn't say that Mirai had poor technique on her jumps

The constant < and << and her constant shock at how low her TES is says otherwise.

Mirai had the flu at 4CC and had just been left off the olympic team. Do you think anyone would have been able to skate WELL under those circumstances?

I said openly before that 4CCs that I dreaded her performances there, because I knew it would spark only two reactions: first, that if she skated well "SHE SHOULD BE ON THE OLYMPIC TEAM SEEEEE?", and second, if she skated poorly, "It's because Eville USFSA broke her poor little heart and SHE IS THE ONLY ONE ALLOWED TO BE HEARTBROKEN OVER THE OLYMPIC SELECTION".

Some people do rise to the occasion. Some skaters might have taken that opportunity to say, "Well, let's see what I can do." As for the flu, skaters get sick all the time. Max was ill at Nationals this year. He never used it as an excuse. You have to drag any information about Josh's illnesses out of Damon, because it's not like Josh is going to mention it. And I struggle to believe Jason has never had a cold or flu at a competition before, but we've never heard a peep about it.

Max had 2 months before worlds to deal with being left off the team. Mirai had a week to get over being left off the team.

Mirai then had the privilege of seeing the US Ladies perform well at the Olympics. Max had to deal with seeing a total meltdown in one of the slots he might have had. He also had to deal with people cheering and hoping he would fall before Worlds, and a general backlash against his selection there. He had to deal with having results over that season on par with the two skaters who were sent to the Olympics. And he managed to do so with grace and class.

Max was in a position where making the Olympic team was a real possibility, based not only on the Nationals results, but his performances over the previous two seasons and the feedback he had initially received from the USFS. Mirai had pulled out two reasonable skates after a season full of poor results and expected to go. Their experiences were not equal.

 

[samm22]

The constant < and << and her constant shock at how low her TES is says otherwise.



I said openly before that 4CCs that I dreaded her performances there, because I knew it would spark only two reactions: first, that if she skated well "SHE SHOULD BE ON THE OLYMPIC TEAM SEEEEE?", and second, if she skated poorly, "It's because Eville USFSA broke her poor little heart and SHE IS THE ONLY ONE ALLOWED TO BE HEARTBROKEN OVER THE OLYMPIC SELECTION".

Some people do rise to the occasion. Some skaters might have taken that opportunity to say, "Well, let's see what I can do." As for the flu, skaters get sick all the time. Max was ill at Nationals this year. He never used it as an excuse. You have to drag any information about Josh's illnesses out of Damon, because it's not like Josh is going to mention it. And I struggle to believe Jason has never had a cold or flu at a competition before, but we've never heard a peep about it.



Mirai then had the privilege of seeing the US Ladies perform well at the Olympics. Max had to deal with seeing a total meltdown in one of the slots he might have had. He also had to deal with people cheering and hoping he would fall before Worlds, and a general backlash against his selection there. He had to deal with having results over that season on par with the two skaters who were sent to the Olympics. And he managed to do so with grace and class.

Max was in a position where making the Olympic team was a real possibility, based not only on the Nationals results, but his performances over the previous two seasons and the feedback he had initially received from the USFS. Mirai had pulled out two reasonable skates after a season full of poor results and expected to go. Their experiences were not equal.

As to the technical issues, I will maintain that they are mental and don't have anything to do with technique, as her technique is generally good and has seemed to improve since moving to Tom Z. The underrotations aren't necessarily technique. She seems tight whenever she competes. I really thinks it is a confidence issue, as her TECHNIQUE is much better than again, Yulia's (esp. on the flip and double axel) and Kanako's.

She had the freaken FLU, not just any "illness", the FLU!!!!! And she never said she had the flu IIRC; it was a doctor at the event that said Mirai had competed with the flu. And NO, I DID NOT SAY that Mirai was the only one that was allowed to be upset about the olympic team, but I can only imagine clawing yourself back to the podium and having most people believe you had a spot on the team to be left off and having to compete barely a week after that is not "easy." I simply said that it was something that could have been weighing on her mind...

As for Max, what he went through was just as tough, but it's not comparing apples to apples...I should have used a better example, but I can't think of another time that a skater had almost been on the team and then had to compete a barely a week later after being left off. I'm sure there were other instances but I can't think of them right now.

I am just overall miffed at the fact that you completely ignored the second half of my statement. This thread is not the place to be having this conversation and I shouldn't be continuing, but I really don't like how easy it is for people to harp on Mirai, much the same as you feel it is easy for people to harp on Max. I feel that it is necessary for everyone to see this part of my previous post again:

"This thread was not about Mirai's prospects, or her talking about retiring. It was a harmless thread about her working with Mishin. It said nothing about her goals or what she wants to achieve. I think it's just kinda cool that Mishin was working with her. Why can't people say "Oh, OK" and leave it at that. Saying that she should retire/has no future/passed her peak/discrediting the reasons why she hasn't skated well at certain competitions belongs in another thread. Give her some slack!"

I knew people would discredit why she didn't skate well, and that's exactly what happened. This thread is really and honestly I'm wondering if we should just create a "Mirai future prospects" thread so that all the nay-sayers can bash Mirai to their hearts content. This thread was happy and upbeat, but no, people have to come in and start the "she should retire..." line etc. It wasn't just you Karne, so I'm sorry I am kind of dumping this all into one post, and what you were saying in particular wasn't nearly the worst on this thread, it just doesn't apply to this thread.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I just dislike how everyone feels the need to discredit Mirai's reasons for not competing to her potential and then is able to validate other skater's excuses as to why they didn't skate so well. Mirai had the flu at 4CC and had just been left off the olympic team. Do you think anyone would have been able to skate WELL under those circumstances?

It's not just that. It's the constant attribution to back luck (or some other excuse) for the poor results. At Nationals last year everyone remembers her bad fall but forget that she had two < in her first couple of jumping passes before the fall, so she likely wouldn't have placed well anyway. If you're sick and being sad about getting left off the team is going to hold you back, give your spot to another skater who would be eager to compete despite not making the Olympic team. If it's so obvious that she wouldn't skate well she shouldn't have competed.

 

[samm22]

It's not just that. It's the constant attribution to back luck (or some other excuse) for the poor results. At Nationals last year everyone remembers her bad fall but forget that she had two < in her first couple of jumping passes before the fall, so she likely wouldn't have placed well anyway. If you're sick and being sad about getting left off the team is going to hold you back, give your spot to another skater who would be eager to compete despite not making the Olympic team. If it's so obvious that she wouldn't skate well she shouldn't have competed.

This thread isn't about that....and it is not her citing those "excuses" as to why she didn't skate well, it's mostly her fans. HOWEVER, she did actually have the flu at 4cc and I WAS WONDERING that wouldn't it be difficult to skate after being left off the team? I never said that she thought it herself. I'm sure she would have withdrawn if she had known that she wasn't capable of competing. I'm not a die-hard Mirai fan, but I respect that she skates and I respect that she's working really hard. She is willing to put in the time to have Mishin see her skate, and Mishin is willing to work with her. Where is the harm in that?

 

[silverlake22]

Mirai doesn't have a mule kick like Kanako or Julia, but that doesn't make her jump technique great. Her issue is more with the way she EXITS jumps, not how she enters them (though she has had issues with edge calls, originally she flutzed, then she started getting edge calls on her flip, and for awhile there she was sometimes getting edge calls on both her flips and lutzes). Primarily, the issue with Mirai's technique is that she usually lands her jumps on her toepick and hooks the landing, resulting in an under-rotated jump in most cases. This is the main cause for her chronic UR issues, because it is clear that she has plenty of speed and adequate height on the majority of her jumps. But when you land on the toepick, things get dicey. She's been landing her jumps this way since she really broke through. Under the current state of COP, I don't think Mirai would have ever won her senior national title. Sure, her rotation was a little less suspect when she was an itty bitty thing, but even then, she landed on her toepick and hooked the landings of most of her jumps and likely would have gotten a fair share of UR calls. Since the URs seem to be tied to her technique which has been ingrained for years now, it's unlikely that something as simple as getting in great shape or keeping her high speed up throughout the program is going to fix. Not saying she can't, but people who think Mirai's UR problem is tied only to her body changing post puberty and can be easily fixed are a bit delusional imo.

 

[chuckm]

It's MORE than just the UR problem with Mirai. It's also with her lack of expression when she performs. She is so concentrated on getting through the technical program that she is unable to give any attention to expressing the music or bonding with the audience. She is mostly blank-faced, with no change of expression until the final moves, when she smiles (probably relief because it's over). The overall impression she gives, intended or not, is that she doesn't seem to enjoy skating while she's on competition ice. Unfortunately, that is what the ISU judges see, and that is why her PCS scores are mostly in the mid-6s. Even if she fixed her URs, but continued to skate robotically, with those low PCS scores, she wouldn't be competitive with the top skaters.

 

[jenaj]

Since the URs seem to be tied to her technique which has been ingrained for years now, it's unlikely that something as simple as getting in great shape or keeping her high speed up throughout the program is going to fix. Not saying she can't, but people who think Mirai's UR problem is tied only to her body changing post puberty and can be easily fixed are a bit delusional imo.

Who has said that? Mirai's under-rotation problem kept her from winning Nationals in 2010 and probably kept her off the World podium that year, too. No one disputes that URs are an issue with Mirai. But some of us feel encouraged that she has a stable coaching situation and is getting expert advice. No one, except the naysayers, is predicting anything. Hoping is different from predicting.

 

[samm22]

Mirai doesn't have a mule kick like Kanako or Julia, but that doesn't make her jump technique great. Her issue is more with the way she EXITS jumps, not how she enters them (though she has had issues with edge calls, originally she flutzed, then she started getting edge calls on her flip, and for awhile there she was sometimes getting edge calls on both her flips and lutzes). Primarily, the issue with Mirai's technique is that she usually lands her jumps on her toepick and hooks the landing, resulting in an under-rotated jump in most cases. This is the main cause for her chronic UR issues, because it is clear that she has plenty of speed and adequate height on the majority of her jumps. But when you land on the toepick, things get dicey. She's been landing her jumps this way since she really broke through. Under the current state of COP, I don't think Mirai would have ever won her senior national title. Sure, her rotation was a little less suspect when she was an itty bitty thing, but even then, she landed on her toepick and hooked the landings of most of her jumps and likely would have gotten a fair share of UR calls. Since the URs seem to be tied to her technique which has been ingrained for years now, it's unlikely that something as simple as getting in great shape or keeping her high speed up throughout the program is going to fix. Not saying she can't, but people who think Mirai's UR problem is tied only to her body changing post puberty and can be easily fixed are a bit delusional imo.

I never said that she had great technique, but people credited ALL of her underrotations to her "completely flawed" technique and I was trying to dispute that...she also rotates rather slowly which is gorgeous, but creates more difficulty in trying to do the triple triple.

 

[Mathman]

I love Mirai to pieces, ad I agree with samm22 that this thread really isn't about her chronic technical issues. But I do think that the analysis by Silverlake22 is correct. On her jump landings she seems to reach down with her toepick prematurely, thus hitting the ice short of rotation.

 

[mskater93]

When she competes, on her take offs, she doesn't wait long enough on her loop and she "short picks" her flip and Lutz which contribute to her UR issue even more than reaching for the ice. I noticed her timing was rushed at SkAm last year which means she's not using the entry to its fullest to achieve all the height she could get which could improve the back-end tidiness.

 

[composer]

Mirai related threads are so predictable...

Can I start a thread titled "Mirai and Liza go shopping at the Gap!" just to see what happens?

 

[samm22]

Mirai related threads are so predictable...

Can I start a thread titled "Mirai and Liza go shopping at the Gap!" just to see what happens?

I honestly feel that we need to create a "mirai's future prospects" thread so that all of the people criticizing her (which isn't bad in itself, it just doesn't apply to this particular thread) so that people can say that she's done all they want...it was just a nice photo of her with Mishin

 

[daphenaxa]

I honestly feel that we need to create a "mirai's future prospects" thread so that all of the people criticizing her (which isn't bad in itself, it just doesn't apply to this particular thread) so that people can say that she's done all they want...it was just a nice photo of her with Mishin

lol I just think this thread should be renamed "Nagasu taking lessons with Mishin in CO, but why would we care?! do you think she is finished or not?"

 

[Sandpiper]

I love Mirai to pieces, ad I agree with samm22 that this thread really isn't about her chronic technical issues. But I do think that the analysis by Silverlake22 is correct. On her jump landings she seems to reach down with her toepick prematurely, thus hitting the ice short of rotation.

:thumbsup:

 

[StitchMonkey]

I honestly feel that we need to create a "mirai's future prospects" thread so that all of the people criticizing her (which isn't bad in itself, it just doesn't apply to this particular thread) so that people can say that she's done all they want...it was just a nice photo of her with Mishin

You mean like this one titled. Mirai Nagasu's future prospects?