2015 Rostelecom Cup Ladies Free Skate

[Kinga]

I want to say something positive about Polina. I love her step sequences - they are an integral part of her programs, built into them so smoothly. They match the tempo of the music. They are not frantic, like in case of so many skaters: hey, now it is time for my step sequence, so Im going to rush, to bend here, flail my arms there, contort here, turn here 3 times, without any meaning. At first one can barely notice that what she does is the required step sequence. Subtle and beautiful!

I also think that she is one of those skaters that has potential to express music with meaningful body movements, to find and show hidden nuances. She is musical and her movements are so polished, elegant, graceful. Great awarness. She is probably this more introvert type, but I like it! I dont find her boring at all! But of course, she still has a lot of work to do, to "sell" her programs better and improve on performance.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I personally think it's not about age but how the skaters skate in each event. Ade was indeed more mature now and skates more fluidly than before but it doesn't take away the fact that she was not perfect in this event and her performance here wasn't her best. I like her but IMO, a 63-5 would have been fair for her performance here. Actually, I think Evgenia and Elena's PCS are also overscored by some points and it's not because they're young but because they don't have SS in the high 8s yet. Even in CR or IN. PE scores are deserved for me. And tech somehow ignored Evgenia's Flutz.

See, just because people criticize the scoring it doesn't automatically mean they are Yuna fans or they hate Adelina. I don't think it's bashing. I think it's more observation and constructive criticism. If I say Ade is ugly or that she skates like a junior when she doesn't, that's bashing and should rightly be called on but disagreeing with the scores because of seeing the performances isn't what I would call bashing. We all have different opinions.

Maybe the posts Alex D was referring to weren't up anymore when you read through the thread (then thanks dear mods!), but I thought there were quite a few comments that don't fall under 'constructive criticism'. And that was already the case in the ladies SP thread, if I remember correctly. I don't think anyone would ever accuse you of bashing for example, and yes definitely not everyone bashing Adelina is a Yuna fan. But Adelina is a regular target for extra scrutiny, and while that might be justified given her OGM status, it goes overboard so quickly.
Someone saying they don't think Adelina should have won bronze is fine. Quite a few people have done so in a completely fair way. But getting on a long rant how she always and of course only wins with PCS and basically never achieved anything or similar things is IMO unneeded, to say the least.

 

[OS]

Thanks Alex D for entertaining this conversation. No, of course I am not offended by diverse views from mine. I welcome it

IMHO PCS should always be a derivative of the performance on the day, not predetermined. Otherwise it goes against the nature of a fair competition especially in an Olympic standard sport where everyone is suppose to be treated equally without prejudices.

You can't have both ways. If you expect the skater to receive well deserved PCS increase with a skate the lights one of a kind clean performance, you should absolutely expect it to comes down if the skater under performed below their bests. You can have all the talent in the world, but if you don't deliver during the competition, it is pointless.

The skater should ALWAYS be marked based on what they actually delivered, so an imperfect performance where in the second half the performer looked visibly tired, running out of steam including a major fall towards the end (The sort that impacted Carolina's Bolero PCS impression so much and cost her the championship), should absolutely impact the overall impression of the performance in terms of PCS rewards.

Instead, Adelina is rewarded her one of her highest PCS ever for a 3 triples FS.

Take her pre-Sochi outing at last European Championship 2014, a controversial judged event at the time (Feel free to check out archived threads) that attracted criticisms from well known long term skating insiders and former judges such as Sonia Bianchetti remarked on the outrageous PCS the Russian youngsters already received then, would not be supportive of your theory.

PCS should go up and down depends on success rate. A clean skate such as Patrick's FS at Skate Canada, generally see a boost in PCS, just like Anna benefited from her MO championship with 7 clean triples. TES and PCS may measure different criterias but how can you say they are independent? Inability to perform good basics, carry out the tech convincingly can certainly impact skater's ability to perform, indicator of their skating skills, ability to interpret and deliver.

Otherwise why bother compete anymore. Lets just give Patrick, Hanyu, Mao, Liza the gold and silver and let's just call it a day. Why should there be a short and long program, short being the technical program, where higher tech is suppose to weigh more than in the long. The way they mark Adelina's PCS blurred the line so much.

Let's also demystify this so called 'Olympic Champion Bonus' on PCS boosting.

Yuna's Vancouver 2010 FS (everybody after Lepisto benefitted from Olympic inflation equally not subjectively unlike in Sochi)

TES 78.30 (Highest TES in the competition)
PCS71.76

Yuna's WC 2010 FS Gershwin after a disastrous short
TES 66.45
PCS 65.04

WC2011 FS Homage to Korea (one of the great artistic program last 2 quads imho)
TES 61.72
PCS 66.87

Carolina's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun in the same competition
TES 60.30
PCS 64.63

Aderlina's WC 2013 9th place finisher
TES 55.73
PCS 60.63

Adelina's EC2014 controversial score
TES 62.03 (11 points higher than COR2015)
PCS 69.60 (9 points higher than her '14 season average)

Adelina's Japan Open FS
TES 52.70
PCS 66.11 (Liza received 65.73 PCS for TES 64.61)

Adelina COR 2015
TES 51.25 (3 clean triples, no 3lutz or any big combos)
PCS 69.38

---------

I am genuinely curious just how poorly does she have to do, or how well will other Russian ladies have to do to beat her in PCS?

Apparently 7 triples clean are still really not good enough from Russia's 2 GP event Gold medalists which is something Adelina has yet to achieve.

What is the point for anyone to compete anymore if they are below the 65 PCS bracket. It seems a bit pointless and outrageous as a sport if you ask me. if you are in the 50s PCS bracket, even if you outperformed Adelina TES by 20 points and maxed out your tech content, you'd still barely able to eclipse Adelina with 3 triples, no combos no lutz. Think about this for a sec. The danger of accepting this sort of scoring trends in a 'sport'.

When I refer to balance I am not talking about 50:50 precisely, but generally referring to an acceptable threshold of tolerance within TES vs PCS to allow the skaters to compete in any capacity they desire as long as the judging standard is consistent and equal through out. Whether they choose to compete on TES or PCS. Not that because they lack and failed in TES, let's hold them up in PCS which I believe has been the consistent case with Adelina's career. Some may call it unfair, but the stats and circumstances seems to serve my argument more.

The way to sell the sport is to provide high consistent transparent judging where all skaters believe they will get their fair turn. including the audiences, instead of the 'accepting' some home inflation is always expected. For example, I did expect Rika and likely Polina would be held back a bit for the Russian sweep, but isn't it sad I almost accept it as norm now? Instead of fighting such unfairness like I'd be a few years ago? Of course Polina and Rika did themselves no favours failed to deliver, but had they deliver a better FS, then a better case can be made for them. Alaine pretty much imploded unfortunately after a spectacular short.

 

[Alex D]

I personally think it's not about age but how the skaters skate in each event. Ade was indeed more mature now and skates more fluidly than before but it doesn't take away the fact that she was not perfect in this event and her performance here wasn't her best. I like her but IMO, a 63-5 would have been fair for her performance here. Actually, I think Evgenia and Elena's PCS are also overscored by some points and it's not because they're young but because they don't have SS in the high 8s yet. Even in CR or IN. PE scores are deserved for me. And tech somehow ignored Evgenia's Flutz.

See, just because people criticize the scoring it doesn't automatically mean they are Yuna fans or they hate Adelina. I don't think it's bashing. I think it's more observation and constructive criticism. If I say Ade is ugly or that she skates like a junior when she doesn't, that's bashing and should rightly be called on but disagreeing with the scores because of seeing the performances isn't what I would call bashing. We all have different opinions.

Adelina can do better, I fully agree. Personally, I am not the biggest fan of comparing scores from different events, as the judges are different, the occasion is, the crowds and maybe even the program, especially in Ice Dance.
I like to see the events isolated, when it happened and who competed there and in this case, for me Adelina should win the PCs over the others and this she did. The point difference, however, was really small to Evgenia and Elena - which for me is debatable, without to discredit the other girls of course, but as mentioned, for me there is a difference how she performs, compared to the younger ones. If we should lower the general PC score by all top three, can be discussed, I am not against that, but as I said, I do not like it much if we compare scores to other events. I know this is done a lot here at GS, but I think that we have way to many variables in these analyses and they can influence the outcome. No event is like the other, every competition has a different environment.

But if we assume, that Gracie would had been at Moscow and clean, then I would had most likely given her the highest PCs, also because of having a flow (no errors in jumps), is something that "adds" to PC´s for me. It should, however, not be a huge gap and mostly be reflected in PE.

At the actual event here, Rika, Alaine but also Polina could have all beaten Adelina if clean - their TES were stronger and you saw that Adelina was away for a long time. That none of them did this, is only their own fault (sorry again girls). I am pretty sure they do know that their PC´s are not there yet ( you mentioned the SS and IN but also CH) and as far I can tell, Adelina is respected by the other girls and she is definitely someone, they look up to. However, if Rika can pull out such a skate like at China, then IN & CH should be very close to Adelina & Gracie.

I often think that skaters discuss PC´s much less, than we do. A lot of things that happen on the ice, are not always visible for us. I am sure a skater knows exactly where she or he has a weak spot, so they understand point differences better than we do. Plus there are chats that none of us is allowed to join in and this is something that skaters need to improve - the advice by specialists and the feedback from those who rate their performances.

 

[zschultz1986]

Medvedeva needs to quit it with the Tanomania. It's basically this decade's version of Slutskaya's Bielmania.

I can't with it and it needs to die. Let them do it ONCE per program, and nothing more. If you can do both a Tano variation and a Rippon variation fine. But EVERY DAMN JUMP WITH AN ARM OVER THE HEAD!? No girl. No.

 

[Meoima]

Medvedeva needs to quit it with the Tanomania. It's basically this decade's version of Slutskaya's Bielmania.

I can't with it and it needs to die. Let them do it ONCE per program, and nothing more. If you can do both a Tano variation and a Rippon variation fine. But EVERY DAMN JUMP WITH AN ARM OVER THE HEAD!? No girl. No.

Those tanos make her look like she is using mosquito slapper http://www.google.com.vn/imgres?img...d=0ahUKEwj6pc2DgqXJAhWCEpQKHYLiCZEQMwgYKAAwAA

 

[MIM]

I want to say something positive about Polina. I love her step sequences - they are an integral part of her programs, built into them so smoothly. They match the tempo of the music. They are not frantic, like in case of so many skaters: hey, now it is time for my step sequence, so Im going to rush, to bend here, flail my arms there, contort here, turn here 3 times, without any meaning. At first one can barely notice that what she does is the required step sequence. Subtle and beautiful!

I also think that she is one of those skaters that has potential to express music with meaningful body movements, to find and show hidden nuances. She is musical and her movements are so polished, elegant, graceful. Great awarness. She is probably this more introvert type, but I like it! I dont find her boring at all! But of course, she still has a lot of work to do, to "sell" her programs better and improve on performance.

Absolutely! I agree with you.

I lost my stream and missed rika and polina skating live. Later I watched polina and really felt for her. She is beautiful and so is her skating. B.euro guy said it is weird to find the crowd not as excited as he is at polina's performance. She has to overcome the notion that her program is not entertaining and music is flat. It is too much burden to carry with at her stage. She would need a better vehicle to move her forward; music, costume, hair. I appreciate her moonlight sonata where she exudes her beauty without trouble. I just wonder why she has such different packaging in terms of quality.
Her style does not easily get rewarded unless she performs 100% artistically and technically. Her upper body is beautiful but the arms need to be extended to the fingers.,,,(don't drop it in the middle, a.k.a. falling leaf by Jenny Kirk) She is in the progress artistically while keeping the technical prowess.

Yuka is another budding artist I adore. She has naturally graceful movements and amazing jumps(height, distance, air position, flow). She may need to work on timing and confidence to stop popping jumps. If she can put together a clean program consistently, she will be unstoppable.

Polina and Yuka are my new found hopes. They are not boring, they are exciting to watch and wait. I want to see their potential fully realized if not this season, then next!

 

[winky97]

Those tanos make her look like she is using mosquito slapper http://www.google.com.vn/imgres?img...d=0ahUKEwj6pc2DgqXJAhWCEpQKHYLiCZEQMwgYKAAwAA

That my big issue with her. I am getting to the point that I want ISU to limit the tano and its because of her overuse. When I saw her at SA I think I counted 6-7 tanos

 

[NaVi]

Eh, people need to get over it... she does it on her 3F, and 3Lz which really is kind of hard and then on the 2A+2T+2T which is uninteresting and the the 2A which is also an uninteresting jump pass.

 

[Alex D]

Thanks Alex D for entertaining this conversation. No, of course I am not offended by diverse views from mine. I welcome it

IMHO PCS should always be a derivative of the performance on the day, not predetermined. Otherwise it goes against the nature of a fair competition especially in an Olympic standard sport where everyone is suppose to be treated equally without prejudices.

By saying this, you imply that Adelina got high PCs because of the name, nationality ..., but this just isn't true. Are you really saying that you did not see a difference between her and the rest? I do not want to make this into a fight about Adelina vs. someone else, so I will not go into this any further, or look for weak spots at other skaters by naming and shaming them, but there are a lot of different aspects to consider when we talk about the complexity of PCs. As example, you can have skaters who prepare their jumps for such a long time, that the whole program is interrupted. Sure they might land the jumps clean, but is this really fun to watch? Then you can have skaters who are constantly out of character whenever something more difficult comes along. Then others always look onto the ice, have poor posture, are slow while the music is fast ...

Evgenia but also Adelina, always add small things to their performances, things that enhance what we see, same with Gracie. It can be an emote, it can be the way their arms and hands are set in motion, the placement of their elements, a little step or turn ... These things just have to matter more than their jumps, if we look at PCs. It should also matter where you put a jump element, Rika is a great example for this. Her three jump combo is right on beat and perfectly reflecting the more uplifting part in the music, this has to matter and it must be rewarded accordingly in PCs, even if she does not have a triple Axel or so.

I said it before, TES is where strong athletes will score high if they land clean. I would not want it that someone who barely lands a triple, gets equal scores to someone who does. But at the same time and this is where fairness comes in, we should not give someone high PCs for landing jumps, while just cruising over the ice. This is so wrong in everything that figure skating stands for.

PCS should go up and down depends on success rate. A clean skate such as Patrick's FS at Skate Canada, generally see a boost in PCS, just like Anna benefited from her MO championship with 7 clean triples. TES and PCS may measure different criterias but how can you say they are independent? Inability to perform good basics, carry out the tech convincingly can certainly impact skater's ability to perform, indicator of their skating skills, ability to interpret and deliver.

But how can you say, that someone who goes the easy way by focusing only on jumps, should get equal PCs to someone who really has a choreography, really a flow, smooth footwork, transitions that are gorgeous and look easy...? A triple - double has a lower TES, rightfully - but at no point should a skater who puts that combination beautifully on beat, receive less PC´s than someone who has a triple - triple, but is completely out of sync with the music and theme of their program.

We have three and seven jump elements, they need to be a part of the choreography and story and should not be just there, to show off. All that difficulty is a total waste, if the jump has no relation to the actual program. The big problem with good jumpers can be, that they might jump everything clean, but they do not take any high risks. To have a choreography where your jump elements are evenly spread and exactly positioned to be on beat and in sync with the mood of your program is much more difficult than a program, where your jumps have no relation to your choreography.

This is one of many aspects why Adelina has an edge over others, but you can see this best if you look at Rika at China. Yet she lost out to Mao, but I will not start with this again.

Otherwise why bother compete anymore. Lets just give Patrick, Hanyu, Mao, Liza the gold and silver and let's just call it a day.

Why bother compete, if you can not win a medal, because someone with better jumps will always outscore you in PC´s, even if the program was empty? This doesn´t sound like a fun thing to me. I am sorry, but I will never ever agree with that view. This is figure skating and not ski jumping. We do have more than jumps, much more. That said, Adelina is at no point a bad jumper, she is one of the best. I am sure being out for 18 months and afterwards not fully back is nothing to be ashamed of.

What is the point for anyone to compete anymore if they are below the 65 PCS bracket. It seems a bit pointless and outrageous as a sport if you ask me. if you are in the 50s PCS bracket, even if you outperformed Adelina TES by 20 points and maxed out your tech content, you'd still barely able to eclipse Adelina with 3 triples, no combos no lutz. Think about this for a sec. The danger of accepting this sort of scoring trends in a 'sport'.

Said skaters won over Adelina in TES, but they did not in PCs and many reasons why were already given. Every skater has a fair chance to improve their PCs, just like everyone has a fair chance to learn harder jump elements.

In the end, I find that whole discussion a bit sad, she came back after 18 months and all we do is talk about why she should get the score or why she shouldn't. I sadly let myself drag into this again, like at Sochi and I do not want this. Adelina does not need someone to stand up for her, she is a great skater and will silence the crowds once more I am sure of this.

We fans should be happy that she is back and wish her luck for the future, but instead we talk about a topic that nobody will ever solve. That discussion about PC´s vs. Jumps is as old as competitive skating, we will never come to any agreement there. For me, skating will always be a combination of things and never a jumping contest. My luck is, that I like many skaters, therefore it does not matter to much if Adelina, Evgenia, Gracie, Elena ... will medal. I am just happy for everyone

 

[zschultz1986]

Eh, people need to get over it... she does it on her 3F, and 3Lz which really is kind of hard and then on the 2A+2T+2T which is uninteresting and the the 2A which is also an uninteresting jump pass.

Or saying it another way, she does it in more than half of her jump passes. No, it's distracting, and she's ONLY doing it to garner better GoE. It's not even very aesthetically pleasing the way she does it, bending her arm at a 90 degree angle above her head. Go look at the people who do the tano variation well. They hold their arm like a ballet arm.

I agree with winky97. The ISU needs to limit it, like they did after Slutskaya used a Bielmann position is basically every spin that year.

 

[NaVi]

No, it's distracting,

No it isn't. It's hardly even noticeable considering her gloves match her dress.

and she's ONLY doing it to garner better GoE.

No, you're wrong. The way she does it help her get more height and faster rotation on her jumps.

It's not even very aesthetically pleasing

It's not aesthetically displeasing either.

 

[rain]

I want to say something positive about Polina. I love her step sequences - they are an integral part of her programs, built into them so smoothly. They match the tempo of the music. They are not frantic, like in case of so many skaters: hey, now it is time for my step sequence, so Im going to rush, to bend here, flail my arms there, contort here, turn here 3 times, without any meaning. At first one can barely notice that what she does is the required step sequence. Subtle and beautiful!

I also think that she is one of those skaters that has potential to express music with meaningful body movements, to find and show hidden nuances. She is musical and her movements are so polished, elegant, graceful. Great awarness. She is probably this more introvert type, but I like it! I dont find her boring at all! But of course, she still has a lot of work to do, to "sell" her programs better and improve on performance.

I agree that Polina has beautiful upper body movement and increasing body awareness (a slightly awkward stage, which was more evident last season, is normal for a girl that experiences a growth spurt). I don't love her LP dress but let's face it, it's hardly the worst thing I've ever seen. It's more just kind of okay, rather than truly awful. I find the Gone With the Wind music and choreography more forgettable than bad.

Polina's biggest problem is her lack of power. She is noticeably slow over the ice, which probably is part of her problem in underrotating her jumps. This is where I think she really needs to work.

 

[jenm]

Adelina can do better, I fully agree. Personally, I am not the biggest fan of comparing scores from different events, as the judges are different, the occasion is, the crowds and maybe even the program, especially in Ice Dance.
I like to see the events isolated, when it happened and who competed there and in this case, for me Adelina should win the PCs over the others and this she did. The point difference, however, was really small to Evgenia and Elena - which for me is debatable, without to discredit the other girls of course, but as mentioned, for me there is a difference how she performs, compared to the younger ones. If we should lower the general PC score by all top three, can be discussed, I am not against that, but as I said, I do not like it much if we compare scores to other events. I know this is done a lot here at GS, but I think that we have way to many variables in these analyses and they can influence the outcome. No event is like the other, every competition has a different environment.

But if we assume, that Gracie would had been at Moscow and clean, then I would had most likely given her the highest PCs, also because of having a flow (no errors in jumps), is something that "adds" to PC´s for me. It should, however, not be a huge gap and mostly be reflected in PE.

At the actual event here, Rika, Alaine but also Polina could have all beaten Adelina if clean - their TES were stronger and you saw that Adelina was away for a long time. That none of them did this, is only their own fault (sorry again girls). I am pretty sure they do know that their PC´s are not there yet ( you mentioned the SS and IN but also CH) and as far I can tell, Adelina is respected by the other girls and she is definitely someone, they look up to. However, if Rika can pull out such a skate like at China, then IN & CH should be very close to Adelina & Gracie.

I often think that skaters discuss PC´s much less, than we do. A lot of things that happen on the ice, are not always visible for us. I am sure a skater knows exactly where she or he has a weak spot, so they understand point differences better than we do. Plus there are chats that none of us is allowed to join in and this is something that skaters need to improve - the advice by specialists and the feedback from those who rate their performances.

I also think that PCS between her and the others should be wider IF Ade went clean or even just cleaner in this event and I think her Bronze is deserved but with closer scores with the 4th. But I still think that PCS of some skaters (including Ade) are too over scored and yes, Elena and Evgenia's PCS are also too high for them. When I watch them side by side with, say, Yuna, Mao or Caro, I see a 10-15 points gap in PC. PCS these days are crazy and I can never understand the judges in handing them out so easily these days. But I just want to enjoy the performances.

I just couldn't help but respond because every time someone brings up over scoring especially with Adelina (which we can see is true right now, not saying she only wins because of PCS), someone automatically says those critics are Yuna fans who cannot get over Sochi or those people are just plain haters when in fact, there is a valid basis for their argument. I wasn't a fan of Ade at the Olympics but after all that happened and how she is handling the situation is truly admirable. If she were clean here and she just had a great performance, then I woulnd't mind a 69 - 70 PCS (seeing that high PC scores are the trend right now).

 

[jenm]

Maybe the posts Alex D was referring to weren't up anymore when you read through the thread (then thanks dear mods!), but I thought there were quite a few comments that don't fall under 'constructive criticism'. And that was already the case in the ladies SP thread, if I remember correctly. I don't think anyone would ever accuse you of bashing for example, and yes definitely not everyone bashing Adelina is a Yuna fan. But Adelina is a regular target for extra scrutiny, and while that might be justified given her OGM status, it goes overboard so quickly.
Someone saying they don't think Adelina should have won bronze is fine. Quite a few people have done so in a completely fair way. But getting on a long rant how she always and of course only wins with PCS and basically never achieved anything or similar things is IMO unneeded, to say the least.

If those comments did exist and I wasn't able to read them, then that's great because they're gone and shouldn't be in the internet. I, for one, also do not support bashing in any form to any one.
It's just bothering me when I say see people think that those who do not support the scoring are just, or mostly, Yuna fans or Adelina haters, when in fact, there's a valid basis for their argument. But I agree, some things should have been left unsaid (or untyped) even if say, you or I, believe it's true.

 

[Mathman]

Absolutely! I agree with you.

I lost my stream and missed rika and polina skating live….

+1 for your new avatar.

 

[Icey]

I don't expect to see Polina on the podium at nationals. Mr. Rice, hard to believe Maria is 43. Does she not still coach at the Olympic Reserve Skating Center in Moscow?

 

[Alex D]

I also think that PCS between her and the others should be wider IF Ade went clean or even just cleaner in this event and I think her Bronze is deserved but with closer scores with the 4th. But I still think that PCS of some skaters (including Ade) are too over scored and yes, Elena and Evgenia's PCS are also too high for them. When I watch them side by side with, say, Yuna, Mao or Caro, I see a 10-15 points gap in PC. PCS these days are crazy and I can never understand the judges in handing them out so easily these days. But I just want to enjoy the performances.

I just couldn't help but respond because every time someone brings up over scoring especially with Adelina (which we can see is true right now, not saying she only wins because of PCS), someone automatically says those critics are Yuna fans who cannot get over Sochi or those people are just plain haters when in fact, there is a valid basis for their argument. I wasn't a fan of Ade at the Olympics but after all that happened and how she is handling the situation is truly admirable. If she were clean here and she just had a great performance, then I woulnd't mind a 69 - 70 PCS (seeing that high PC scores are the trend right now).

Thing is, Carolina and Yuna are no longer on the ice, so that we have no idea of knowing how they would do now or would have done at Rostelecom. So we need to look back to Sochi when they all competed and I felt that the scores were pretty fine at the Olympics when all three were on the ice. If I now consider your "statement" that Adelina should have 10-15 less than Caro and Kim, I am sorry, but I find that not realistic and verifiable by facts. We can not automatically give a skater 10 or 15 more, just because said skater is a big name. It must be something that happens on the ice and I remember scores in the past, when I felt that Yuna and Caro both got credit for their name, rather the skate. They were both gorgeous skaters, no doubt and it is a pity they are gone - but for me, if they would still skate and perform well, then in theory, I would see them close to Adelina, Gracie, Mao and then judge purely based by the performance on ice and not their legacy as many here do.

We also need to remember that Adelina did not win because of PCs in 2014, but because of Kim and Costner having less TES. This is what so many forget, it was in fact not a PC loss, but a TES loss and exactly this is what so many people here want, that TES matters more and when it did at Sochi, it will be turned against her as well. She just can not do it right, no matter what she does, people will always find a reason to deny her the victory, it has been like that for years now, every time a Russian did good, it was a huge scandal and reasons had to be found why they do not deserve it.

I am sorry, but for me this is hate and bashing, as it can not be backed up by facts at all. I enjoyed your first argumentation at your previous post, as I see it very similar, but if we now talk about a 10 or 15 point gap between Adelina and Kim or Mao, no sorry - I can not support this.

Sadly, we can not see Adlina at the GPF and Kim + Caro are no longer skating, so that we lack the scores from all of them skating together, what we do now is cross judging between competitions and years and this is never a good idea.

 

[MIM]

+1 for your new avatar.

Thank you.

 

[jenm]

Thing is, Carolina and Yuna are no longer on the ice, so that we have no idea of knowing how they would do now or would have done at Rostelecom. So we need to look back to Sochi when they all competed and I felt that the scores were pretty fine at the Olympics when all three were on the ice. If I now consider your "statement" that Adelina should have 10-15 less than Caro and Kim, I am sorry, but I find that not realistic and verifiable by facts. We can not automatically give a skater 10 or 15 more, just because said skater is a big name. It must be something that happens on the ice and I remember scores in the past, when I felt that Yuna and Caro both got credit for their name, rather the skate. They were both gorgeous skaters, no doubt and it is a pity they are gone - but for me, if they would still skate and perform well, then in theory, I would see them close to Adelina, Gracie, Mao and then judge purely based by the performance on ice and not their legacy as many here do.

We also need to remember that Adelina did not win because of PCs in 2014, but because of Kim and Costner having less TES. This is what so many forget, it was in fact not a PC loss, but a TES loss and exactly this is what so many people here want, that TES matters more and when it did at Sochi, it will be turned against her as well. She just can not do it right, no matter what she does, people will always find a reason to deny her the victory, it has been like that for years now, every time a Russian did good, it was a huge scandal and reasons had to be found why they do not deserve it.

I am sorry, but for me this is hate and bashing, as it can not be backed up by facts at all. I enjoyed your first argumentation at your previous post, as I see it very similar, but if we now talk about a 10 or 15 point gap between Adelina and Kim or Mao, no sorry - I can not support this.

Sadly, we can not see Adlina at the GPF and Kim + Caro are no longer skating, so that we lack the scores from all of them skating together, what we do now is cross judging between competitions and years and this is never a good idea.

No. I wasn't talking about Ade at all about the 10-15 pt gap but the youngsters. Sorry for the confusion. And I don't want to discuss Olympics scoring as it might ignite some heated discussions here. I said Ade deserves 69-70+ PCS if she goes clean. And I did not bash her in any way.

I only brought up Yuna, Mao and Caro to compare their skating skills to the current field. It doesn't matter if they are competing or not. What I was talking about was what they did and what they were capable of to what the current skaters are capable of. And there really is a big difference between their skating skills, i.e. edge depth, smoothness and fluidity, upper body calmness, arm movements, expression, etc.