- Joined
- Dec 9, 2017
The difference between Rika's 4T and Mai's 3Lz is that Rika rotates her toe and body after she picks,
Triple TOE LOOP. The Toe Axel error is committed on the Triple TOE LOOP.
The difference between Rika's 4T and Mai's 3Lz is that Rika rotates her toe and body after she picks,
Triple TOE LOOP. The Toe Axel error is committed on the Triple TOE LOOP.
It appears to be almost a full blade assist too. However, isn't that just a more extreme version of what we're seeing from regular 3Ts that turn on the ice?
Yes, but she's still young. My gold standard right now is Tuktamysheva when she hits that combo.This right here is what I reckon should be the current gold standard for a lutz and a toe loop.
Mao and her 3T ... it's supposed to be the easiest triple jump, but obviously not for Mao. She could've won a lot more with a halfway decent and reliable 3T. Imagine if she could've done a 3T as 2nd jump in combination in the short. But I still think she improved it over the years, but she never felt secure about it.Notice how Mai Asada pre-rotates on her skating foot before she even picks in. She almost looks like she's jumping off both feet. Compare that to Kihira who, well, doesn't do that. Her skating foot is still square in front of her as she picks in.
Mao Asada has a (somewhat less bad) toe axel here: https://youtu.be/XbPbbUeQ3Kw?t=148 She corrected it during her first season with Raf.
Want to help here?
They can address it thru GOE currently.? I do wish ISU would directly address this issue and state clearly what their stance is, because in past communications they've asked for a downgrade on a clear forward takeoff.
Tomoe Kawabata's 3Lz+3T in her Bratislava JGP 2018 FS is an example of how little prerotation toe jumps should have. I remember seeing ISU jump simulations that showed similar levels of prerotation. https://youtu.be/rbsykwNS8J4?t=51
Sam. No. She has <30 degrees PR or so on the Lutz, and then she has almost zero on the toe loop (beyond the natural quarter turn for a toe loop). Watching it in Japan Nationals, she probably did do a zero (beyond needed) pre-rotation toe loop here too (ETA: Looking at the slow mo, looks like it). It's Yuna Kim-level.I’m not sure if you’ve slowed this down and stopped it at take off but her pre rotation compared to the average is not that much better. Especially on the 3t.
Sam. No. She has <30 degrees PR or so on the Lutz, and then she has almost zero on the toe loop (beyond the natural quarter turn for a toe loop). Watching it in Japan Nationals, she probably did do a zero (beyond needed) pre-rotation toe loop here too (ETA: Looking at the slow mo, looks like it). It's Yuna Kim-level.
And she's exactly one of the reasons recording PR matters. Someone who lands at the 1/4 mark with her kind of technique is doing more work than someone who turns forward on take off and still lands at the 1/4 mark.
Give me some numbers then? How many points are you talking. Do you want BV chopped and then negative GOE heaped on. And to what specific point values? Is there a sliding scale based on percentages of PR? I don’t understand what people want in terms of actually scoring adjustments. Personally I think you’ve all jumped on a runaway train and have gone too far with the criticism of normal rotation but I’m curious as to how those I find to be hypercritical would actually breakdown their scoring ideas beyond what we already have or operating within it.
Sam. No. She has <30 degrees PR or so on the Lutz, and then she has almost zero on the toe loop (beyond the natural quarter turn for a toe loop). Watching it in Japan Nationals, she probably did do a zero (beyond needed) pre-rotation toe loop here too (ETA: Looking at the slow mo, looks like it). It's Yuna Kim-level.
I think the 3Lz+3T in the SP at Japan Nationals was better than Yuna Kim level. It was Yuzuru Hanyu level.
She doesn't pick outside the circle slightly like him, but that's OK, IMO. Her +3T, sure.
ETA: https://youtu.be/eMREnj_8qhs?t=201
Some fans really do seem to think that anything other than an all-time great, +5 GOE jump is a terrible mistake.okay so I was writing about the uber Russian juniors and how the antis always complained about PR, and I came to this conclusion:
You really can’t expect everybody to prerotate ~40 degrees just because a few people (Yuna, Tomoe, Yuzuru) can. Most skaters have a PR around 90, and if a jump is only UR past the 90 mark, anybody who PRs <180 on the toe jumps technically get full credit (right? My math is probably totally off). It’s insane to hold every single skater up to the standard of Yuna etc. because only so few skaters actually reach their level. If ~40 degrees was the maximum PR skaters like Rika, Liza, Polina and Mako would be punished although they have fantastic lutz technique. Here’s a statistic:
This season, one female skater (Tomoe) has a PR under 40. Four female skaters had a PR 90 and under (Mako, Polina, Liza and Masha). That’s five out of like forty that were measured. A good 12.5%. In other words 87.5% of skaters would be penalized, and that’s just not fair. Honestly even 90 seems harsh, but it’s more reasonable than 40 at least.
Well, it’s another fan made standard, not really a rule.I have a question: I heard somewhere 90 degrees or less PR was allowed on toe jumps and 189 degrees or less for edge jumps. Is this correct?
Give me some numbers then? How many points are you talking. Do you want BV chopped and then negative GOE heaped on. And to what specific point values? Is there a sliding scale based on percentages of PR? I don’t understand what people want in terms of actually scoring adjustments. Personally I think you’ve all jumped on a runaway train and have gone too far with the criticism of normal rotation but I’m curious as to how those I find to be hypercritical would actually breakdown their scoring ideas beyond what we already have or operating within it.
I thought the GOE breakdown I offered above even seemed a bit OTT. I mean...1.77 is a big difference IMO. I think I actually prefer Ensoo’s jumps and TBH think Tomoes technique looks like it may put a lot of stress on her back at takeoff :shocked:
okay so I was writing about the uber Russian juniors and how the antis always complained about PR, and I came to this conclusion:
You really can’t expect everybody to prerotate ~40 degrees just because a few people (Yuna, Tomoe, Yuzuru) can. Most skaters have a PR around 90, and if a jump is only UR past the 90 mark, anybody who PRs <180 on the toe jumps technically get full credit (right? My math is probably totally off). It’s insane to hold every single skater up to the standard of Yuna etc. because only so few skaters actually reach their level. If ~40 degrees was the maximum PR skaters like Rika, Liza, Polina and Mako would be punished although they have fantastic lutz technique. Here’s a statistic:
This season, one female skater (Tomoe) has a PR under 40. Four female skaters had a PR 90 and under (Mako, Polina, Liza and Masha). That’s five out of like forty that were measured. A good 12.5%. In other words 87.5% of skaters would be penalized, and that’s just not fair. Honestly even 90 seems harsh, but it’s more reasonable than 40 at least.
Some fans really do seem to think that anything other than an all-time great, +5 GOE jump is a terrible mistake.
Well, it’s another fan made standard, not really a rule.
I do think there’s a grain of truth to it, in that the biggest, most aesthetic jumps tend to have this amount or less of PR, but even that isn’t some universally true standard. Tuktamysheva does the full 180 PR on her toeloop and yet most agree her jumps are excellent, for example.
This is what I would do for numbers.
Firstly, remove the negative GOE for mild underrotations (like, nearly 90 degrees) and implement it if it's close to a downgrade or if it's too obvious. I don't think double penalties are necessary for 100 degrees.[
Secondly, treat prerotation and underrotation in the same category. Assign each jump a base amount of prerotation, which, going by aesthetics, seems to be 90 degrees for T, F, Lz, A and 180 degrees for S, Lo. Then, look at how much prerotation the skater does and how underrotated it is. If these two angles add to more than 90 degrees, deem it underrotated with the 30% base value penalty. So, someone prerotating 170 degrees on a lutz had better land it squeaky clean, while someone prerotating 90 degrees or less on a lutz is given a little more leeway on the landing. This way, we ensure skaters have the same amount of revolutions in the air and keep jumping rules consistent with current leniency on UR (> 90 degrees = UR). We don't need exact angle sums; if they're borderline on the prerotation and the underrotation, treat it as underrotated, that sort of thing.
Thirdly, skaters that do not exceed the above thresholds on prerotation at all should be rewarded with a bonus GOE of +1. So, there is a spectrum here:
1. Skaters that blatantly UR and PR, get downgraded (not many)
2. Skaters that UR or PR a little too much, get called UR (a decent proportion of skaters)
3. Skaters that PR more than normal, but land the jumps perfectly clean (a decent proportion of skaters, amongst the better PR jumpers), no penalty
4. Skaters that do not prerotate more than 90 degrees and land the jumps perfectly clean (rare group of skaters :sad4. +1 GOE
What do you guys think? Reasonable? Or shall we impose a -GOE for prerotating too much anyway?
I hope my proposal solves your query. The 87.5% of skaters would not be penalised if they did not UR at all (no leniency), thereby still rotating as much as skaters with < 90 degrees PR that UR less than 90.
For the toe loop, I agree that 90 degrees PR is a weird standard to have since you already need those 90 degrees. It does look good, but as you mentioned, Tukt also has a great 3T. Similar for sals and loops.Well, it’s another fan made standard, not really a rule.
what does pick outside the circle mean?