Women and the Quad

[nussnacker]

I’ve been waiting for this day since June when we first saw Alysa land a 4Lz at a summer camp. Ya’ll DO NOT disappoint.

To me, it is painfully obvious that Alysa is a Martian who has come to Earth to destroy the planet. While we’re at it, I think she’s the one behind climate change. I hear that whenever Alysa pre-rotates or under-rotates a quad, the global temperature rises by 1 degrees Celsius.

Also, remember when people said Alysa will never get a 2A because her Axel technique is so bad? Remember when people said she will never land a clean 3A because her 2A technique is so bad? Remember when people said Alysa will never land a quad because her Lutz technique is so bad? Remember when people said she will not win a single Junior Grand Prix event? I do. And every single time, Alysa proved the detractors WRONG.

Have fun flaming 14 and 15 year olds who are out there making history whilst the rest of you have nothing better to do than sit and hate. At least constructively critique her technique without resorting to cowardly low-blows. We can criticize Alysa for her short comings, but what we cannot do is send hateful comments.

13-14-15-17-19 year olds they’re all amazing.
There’s already an improvement in Alysa’s quad compared to what we’ve seen before, I’m sure she’ll improve even more by worlds and deliver them even better. It’s still exciting to see these jumps.

 

[Seren]

Congrats to Alysa

I'm just a bit salty that everyone seems to be forgetting about Trusova after seeing Kamila and Alysa compete just once.

That's just because we haven't seen Trusova compete yet this year. Give it a few weeks and she'll remind us!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

"Based on pre-rotation"?
https://media.giphy.com/media/WmWcD2iGwjaAshvL7T/giphy.gif

So? Pre-rotation isn't ideal technique. But it's still valid under the current rules.

Same with comparing the landing between Valieva and Liu... sure Valieva's is better rotated on the landing but Liu's looked (and according to the panel was) sufficiently rotated. Valieva's would deserve higher GOE but I'm quite impressed that she actually doesn't telegraph the heck out of it like other quads.

While the attempts to trivialize it are totally expected, it still counts. It's not the best quad for sure, but the difficulty of the quad and solid execution make it worthy of the highest scoring solo jump for ladies.

I also think the judges got it right on her PCS - keeping it sub 30/60 in both segments. I know some people won't be satisfied unless her PCS is like 25/50 but she still has decent programs and her artistry has improved to be worthy of low-mid 7.0s.

 

[ruga]

I just watched Alysa's quad on 0.25x speed, but I couldn't really see where exactly she landed. But frame by frame shows that it could have been underrotated by 100-120 degrees (to my amateur eyes). Judges have slo-mo camera but I doubt it's much slower than the slowest speed on YouTube. If the skater rotates very quickly after landing, it can be tricky to see underrotation, so the skater gets benefit of the doubt.

Also, why so much controversy about prerotation? The ISU clearly doesn't think that there's any problem with skaters who prerotate or at least their calls do not show it. A lot of skaters have 180°+ prerotation on toe jumps. They usually have to sacrifice height and distance for that:
https://m.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/ternovblogfk/2269103.html
https://m.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/ternovblogfk/2237837.html

These are in Russian but green tables with stats are in English.

 

[katymay]

That's just because we haven't seen Trusova compete yet this year. Give it a few weeks and she'll remind us!

I hope so. Just saw a photo of 3A plus Alina and Trusova has hit another growth spurt.

 

[Elucidus]

People tend to forget that if a jump looks clean in real time, it's not reviewed, therefore it will not be called UR. When I saw it in real time, I thought "wow, almost looks like she checked out early" then when it played in slowmo a few times, I thought "Oh, maybe it's slightly UR. Oh, definitely UR"

But it WAS reviewed by tech panel. There are at least 3 evidences that indicates that:
1) big and rare jumps such as quads in ladies skating are ALWAYS reviewed by tech panel - because there is too great effect on final score to ignore possible mistake there
2) reviewed jumps are always showed during tv coverage when athletes waiting the scores - especially it's true for jumps showed from judging camera with close up on boots. There are zero reasons to film it with extra camera if it's not gonna be used by judges. Casual viewers are not interested in boots close ups.
3) Ted Barton said it directly during commentating the jump that tech panel find it as alright - meaning it was on review as such information (which jumps are on review) usually is provided to live commentators.

Not everything is a conspiracy. It looked clean in real time and she got a good landing out of it, that's why it wasn't called.

It's a lie.

 

[Skater Boy]

It is wonderful that these girls are able to do quad. Just amazing. I think Alysa has the best chance of winning it all - she seems built for the quad and all - the Russians not so much or more questionable I am a little sad though for me this is not he direction I prefer to see skating go. Beautiful skaters are rare. there seems to be a raise in pcs with tech supremacy but these skaters are no Yuna, Mao or Patrick or Jason. I am wondering if a step forward sometimes is a step backwards. I am glad Jason keeps plugging on but in a sport where jumps are so important or rather more important in results I am not so sure this was the itended direction.

 

[Elucidus]

Where was your outrage when Sasha's UR was not called? https://twitter.com/Fran_klymydear/status/1168156290344005632?s=20

Because it's a manipulation by Fran. You can't compare 90 degrees UR jump with 160 degrees. Moreover, I wouldn't say anything about Liu's quad if it was only 90 degrees UR. Why? Because any 90 degrees UR jump can be considered as 89 degrees - you can't proof that it's not true. Therefore I believe that such jumps shoudn't be called by default - and I don't like new wording the ISU uses for that rule since it allows judges to abuse it calling even more rotated jumps as URed. And wrong call is always worse than absence of a call.
That said it has nothing to do with Liu's case - since the UR was obvious and without doubt it was noticed by judges.

 

[Mawwerg]

Oh-h. A conspiracy. I like it. The last I heard about Big Bad Masaru was involved in.

 

[zanadude]

30 years ago, there were no slo-mo instant replay reviews. If the jump looked clean, then it was clean. All the technical mumbo jumbo was done behind closed doors during the compulsories. And we were all the better for it.

Figure skating needs to go back to being a sport for the masses, not for the classes.

 

[dorispulaski]

Please be aware that the internet is full of doctored gifs trying to prove that this or that skater they do not like has some jump problem or other.

There is a whole channel devoted to this stuff on youtube, showing dubious flutzes, videos cut short before the skater has landed, and other such crap.

Citing them causes nothing but arguments. The best argument for both Valieva's and Liu's quad quality is that the judges in both cases thought the jump looked good. If they did not think that, the jump would have low GOE.
Lake Placid Ladies FS protocol.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/s...OR----FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

Every judge gave Alysa's 4 Lutz between +1 and +3 GOE, with most giving +2.

I doubt any conspiracy that has to have 3 corrupt panel members and 9 corrupt judges to produce a given result.

 

[gkelly]

2) reviewed jumps are always showed during tv coverage when athletes waiting the scores - especially it's true for jumps showed from judging camera with close up on boots. There are zero reasons to film it with extra camera if it's not gonna be used by judges.

Who controls the cameras that are used for the ISU broadcasts of the JGP? Do the broadcaster producers ever have access to the official video replay feed at all?

As far as I know, there is always ever one camera used for the official video playback and replays. I don't think it does much zooming in; it may always be whole body only. A closeup on the boots and blades would be useless for video replay if there is any possibility that the tech panel would need to see something happening with the skater's body above the ankle.

Then there is also a broadcast feed from a different camera. I think for international events for which the ISU sells broadcast rights there is usually an official feed that different broadcasters can use, but wealthier networks that want to package a slicker entertainment product for their viewers may set up one or more cameras feeding their own network's production, which is why we get multiple camera angles in the same broadcast from broadcasters who have invested in multiple cameras, or different angles in different broadcasts from different networks that are using different cameras.

The technical panel does not see any of those extra angles that exist for the broadcasts only. They only see one angle and as far as I know it is whole body always.

What I don't know whether there is any difference for these JGP broadcasts since the ISU itself is the broadcaster. So if there are multiple camera angles, they would all be produced by an ISU-hired production team.

However, I am confident that the technical panel only gets to see one angle, and I am not sure that the angle the tech panel sees is broadcast on youtube at all.

Casual viewers are not interested in boots close ups.

Casual viewers are probably not watching 5 hours of a junior event on youtube. They may check out a video of a skater who has gotten some buzz (which would include these quad girls, especially Liu among American viewers), but the broadcast replays are done for all skaters , including those who will not be of specific interest to anyone but diehard fans and people who know them personally or come from the same country, to fill broadcast time between the end of each program and the announcement of that skater's scores.

Casual viewers are probably not watching any replays at all, unless they are casually interested in the K&C interactions/human interest and/or the scores and are sticking around to see the replays in between program and K&C.

 

[frida80]

Where is this lie coming from that Alysa had a 180° underrotated quad. I’ve looked at that quad over and over again from multiple angles and at best she is just shy of the 90° mark. Are people pushing out videos of earlier competitions?

This false narrative makes the discussion of Alysa’s 4Lz impossible, since people can’t be objective about it. It may be under rotated, it’s definitely prerotated. However, her level of prerotation is now common in skating, with Sasha, Anna, and Lil Bet all landing prerotated quads. And a jump being called good is nothing new. It happens all the time, to all of our frustration. Just look at Worlds 2019 at all the ladies that got good calls that would never pass the mustard else where.

 

[readernick]

Where is this lie coming from that Alysa had a 180° underrotated quad. I’ve looked at that quad over and over again from multiple angles and at best she is just shy of the 90° mark. Are people pushing out videos of earlier competitions?

This false narrative makes the discussion of Alysa’s 4Lz impossible, since people can’t be objective about it. It may be under rotated, it’s definitely prerotated. However, her level of prerotation is now common in skating, with Sasha, Anna, and Lil Bet all landing prerotated quads. And a jump being called good is nothing new. It happens all the time, to all of our frustration. Just look at Worlds 2019 at all the ladies that got good calls that would never pass the mustard else where.

True, but some people don't care about the problems when it benefits their own skaters. They only care when the same issue benefits another skater. The only true quad that I have seen is Valieva's. Many men and women PR their quads to extreme degrees. People need to stop directing their hatred toward skaters and start changing the system. The problem isn't even the rules, it is the fact that rules are often ignored and tech panels are inconsistent. The talented teenagers are not the problem.

 

[gkelly]

30 years ago, there were no slo-mo instant replay reviews.

True.

If the jump looked clean, then it was clean.

If a jump looked clean to the naked eye of a trained judge, then that judge would give it full credit. If it looked less than clean, the judge would give deduction a short program or only partial credit in a free skate.

But since there was only one Required Elements or Technical Merit score for the whole program, it was impossible for fans (or the skaters themselves) to know from the scores exactly which problems judges saw with any given element and exactly how much credit the skater gained or lost for that element on its own.

Fans often disagreed with results or with specific judges' scores. In many instances that may have been because judges penalized for jumps (or spins) that looked clean to casual fans and flawed to picky trained judges. Or because a skater who had an important jump that was flawed in ways obvious to fans as well as to judges was sufficiently superior in other areas that the judges scored them higher overall than a fan favorite who had fewer obvious flaws but also fewer strong points, or less-strong strong points.

All the technical mumbo jumbo was done behind closed doors during the compulsories.

And 29 years ago, there were no more compulsory figures. But still no official video replay. As always, the technical mumbo jumbo in the short programs and freeskates was done out on the judges' stand during and immediately after the performance. But all wrapped up into one technical score per program, which made it impossible to parse exactly what any of the judges may have rewarded or penalized. At best, a knowledgeable fan could make a good guess.

And we were all the better for it.
Figure skating needs to go back to being a sport for the masses, not for the classes.

Are you talking in terms of spectatorship? Because participation seems to be much more widespread worldwide.

 

[Elucidus]

Oh-h. A conspiracy. I like it. The last I heard about Big Bad Masaru was involved in.

We both know that biased judging exists :confused2: There were even some Chinese judges disqualified for it recently, if I remember correctly. Why it can't happen again? It can
Well, tbh, it's not only "can" - it's happened, happening and will be happening just under your nose. But when it's inconvenient for you - you will take attitude like I am telling some children's fairy tales here. And when it's convenient - you instantly begin to complain about years of Medvedeva's blatant flutz ignoring by judges. What is it? Hypocrisy. Double standarts. You know the words

30 years ago, there were no slo-mo instant replay reviews. If the jump looked clean, then it was clean. All the technical mumbo jumbo was done behind closed doors during the compulsories. And we were all the better for it.

Figure skating needs to go back to being a sport for the masses, not for the classes.

I bet you are admirer of 6.0 system
https://neochan.ru/figs/src/1566681474717.png
and its level of subjectivity too :sarcasm: Thanks, but no thanks. I will prefer taking classes to rigged results each day every day.
Alas, ISU don't seem to understand that using such means to increase fs popularity will result in totally opposite. There is nothing that can turn off a fan from the sport more than known in advance podium and disconnection between what was showed on ice and final scores. When spectator just don't understand what should be done by athlete to win - he will choose to switch to another sport.

 

[Elucidus]

Please be aware that the internet is full of doctored gifs trying to prove that this or that skater they do not like has some jump problem or other.

There is a whole channel devoted to this stuff on youtube, showing dubious flutzes, videos cut short before the skater has landed, and other such crap.

Citing them causes nothing but arguments.

You always can watch youtube video of original program and check it yourself in slo-mo etc - whether it's truth or not. It would cost even less time for you than you spent writing this post arguing about it :confused2:

The best argument for both Valieva's and Liu's quad quality is that the judges in both cases thought the jump looked good. If they did not think that, the jump would have low GOE.
Lake Placid Ladies FS protocol.
http://www.isuresults.com/results/s...OR----FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

Every judge gave Alysa's 4 Lutz between +1 and +3 GOE, with most giving +2.

I doubt any conspiracy that has to have 3 corrupt panel members and 9 corrupt judges to produce a given result.

We both know the judges panel assess GOE for jumps in real time only. They don't have time to rewatch jumps later - they need to make PCS scores too in like couple of minutes. And I admit that Liu's jumps due to fast rotating speed and special landing technique looks usually as rotated in real time. It similar to Miyahara's jumps in a way.
Also, as for Liu - maybe it's not even particular corrupt tech callers fault here. It reminds me Medvedeva's flutz treatment from comp to comp, from panel to panel. Many years of that, with various judges. How you can explain that? Easily, most likely there was some special order appointing the next big star from ISU higher-ups - and telling judges to enact preferential treatment for her. I can't see how it was possible without some sort of special agreement.

 

[TallyT]

Oh for goodness....

Yes, Alysa Liu got some home country advantage - what Weir once called (about a non-American, of course) "home cooking". Nearly every country does it, the US and Russia being two of the most egregious offenders but they aren't the only ones by a long shot.

Can we wait and see how Alysa and the other wunderkinds score on foreign soil before we crown or condemn? If pretty much the same... not dodgy.

 

[Elucidus]

Oh for goodness....

Yes, Alysa Liu got some home town advantage - what Weir once called (about a non-American, of course) "home cooking". Nearly every country does it, the US and Russia being two of the most egregious offenders but they aren't the only ones by a long shot.

Can we wait and see how Alysa and the other wunderkinds score on foreign soil before we crown or condemn? If pretty much the same... not dodgy.

Well, ok, you have a point. Still, having whopping 4 URs not called for her whole FS program seems pretty big "home cooking" for me That said, I can expect such treatment at senior level. But when judging and politicking games beginning even at junior.. :shocked: it's looks as something unhealthy for me

 

[jenaj]

Oh for goodness....

Yes, Alysa Liu got some home country advantage - what Weir once called (about a non-American, of course) "home cooking". Nearly every country does it, the US and Russia being two of the most egregious offenders but they aren't the only ones by a long shot.

Can we wait and see how Alysa and the other wunderkinds score on foreign soil before we crown or condemn? If pretty much the same... not dodgy.

How does that work? The judges are not all from the home country. I don’t think there is a built-judging advantage for home country skaters.