Tuktamysheva's scores

[moriel]

My thoughts...

General politics:
1. Homeflation. Yep, Bradie could have gotten less GOE and PCs, and Liza more.
2. All-russian GPF is a nope, same as an all-russian JGPF. It is actually understandable.
3. Too many top senior ladies for rusfed to politik for them all. Again, understandable, they just have so much leverage, and they got to make choices. And they are not willing to support Liza, they made it pretty clear last year.

Liza's own issues:
1. While yes she has 3As, her overall layout is kind of meh compared to other top skaters, so she wins points on 3As and loses points on other jumps. Lets compare Liza with other top skaters. Liza's BV for SP is 23.99, and for FS is 51.52. Zagitova (with 0 triple axels), got 19.93 in SP and 47.84 in FS last year, which is "just" 8 points difference. Yeah, Liza gets extra 3x5.7 for doing 3 3As instead of 3 2As, but then she wastes a lot of those points in a non optimal layout.
2. Non jump elements. Step sequences and jumps, consistently not lv4. Each thing may be small, but think 1 point on each and it adds up. Then there is GOE and stuff, which also objectively lacks on the non jump elements, and it also adds up.
3. Components. Her programs this year are looking pretty meh, compared to what she had last year, for example.

So on one hand, she is yes underscored. But then she also leaves the door wide open.

 

[Seren]

I really feel for Liza, she is not in an easy situation and it must be frustrating to feel like the judges don’t respect you. She also has to know her chances of Worlds and Olympics are dwindling.

That said her team has really let her down with her layout that gives away points. While her 3A is beautiful the problem is that the deficiencies in the rest of her skating are really obvious against other top skaters. I say this as someone who really likes her!

 

[Mathman]

I came across the same sentence, and interpreted it that no other country will ever be able to compete with premature young Russians because "our" kids are by law required to attend ordinary school w/o exception for sports. And thus they will always be weaker b/c less training.

Wait. What?

Trusova, Shcherbakova, Kostornaia, and Valieva are weak skaters because they go to school?

 

[Scott512]

Wait. What?

Trusova, Shcherbakova, Kostornaia, and Valieva are weak skaters because they go to school?

I think Edwin means other countries won't be able to compete with the premature Russian girls because the girls from the other countries have to go to school by law whereas the Russian girls don't. It is true nonsense. Kamila probably goes to school and I believe her rival Alysa is home-schooled.

 

[Mathman]

I cannot agree with what you wrote. Figure skating singles is a sport of individual personalities. We have here a drama of one particular skater Liza Tuktamysheva.

I just can't see that Elizaveta is being unfairly singled out for abuse by the ISU or the Russian Federation. Last year she was going great, but suffered a health setback at the end of the year. Nobody's fault. Stuff happens.

Just looking at how the judges treated her at Skate America, all I see is a big nothingburger. In the Short Program Elizaveta did not perform her best and was overtaken by Tennell, Sakamoto, and Higuchi who did skate their best. In the LP she got credit for what she did (two triple Axels ) but did not get any phantom bonus points for things that she might have done but didn't. Her SS and TR scores were somewhat on the low side, but -- certainly compared to the winner, Shcherbakova -- she was not fast and she did not show a lot of variety and complexity in transitions.

As for edge calls and under-rotations that the judges might have hit other skaters with -- that's sport. In every sport some referee's calls will go in your favor and some will go against you. What the athlete can do is make sure that her elements are so squeaky clean that the technical panel can't find anything to review. (Easier said than done, I know -- but this is what is within the control of the athlete, while wuz-robbing after the fact is just a waste of energy.)

 

[DenissVFan]

I remember that back in the day Evgenia explained what her schooling at Sambo looked like. She definitely wasn't in class for 8 or so hours a day 5 days a week like most kids. Of course we know that some Russian skaters go / went to an ordinary school but not all. It's also true that some American skaters are / were homeschooled. I think this question of schooling is pertinent because many skaters either have to or choose to go to regular school, which is not optimal for training. I'm not saying that everybody should follow the same educational path – far from it – but this is definitely something to bear in mind while comparing skaters' progress. For some sport is more of an addition to school and for some it's the other way round.

 

[Mishaminion]

I really feel for Liza, she is not in an easy situation and it must be frustrating to feel like the judges don’t respect you. She also has to know her chances of Worlds and Olympics are dwindling.

That said her team has really let her down with her layout that gives away points. While her 3A is beautiful the problem is that the deficiencies in the rest of her skating are really obvious against other top skaters. I say this as someone who really likes her!

Same for me, I really like Liza, but it is so frustrating she seems to have relied on the 3A too much and not addressed her weaknesses.
Her 2014-15 season programs are on my list of favourite programs by any lady.

The problem is, despite adding another 3A, the rest is...more or less the same. Her programs seem to get more empty, each season, not less. Her current FS feels like a watered down rehash of last season's, the music though much the same style is boring. I wish she had actually kept last season's program and it's music, it was far superior.

I think her coaching team have failed Liza badly this season especially. They knew the competition in Russia is now tougher than ever, yet the SP "hey let's just use completely different music to what this was designed for only to change it back again after defending the choice" and this constant revision of layout is not helping her.

 

[macy]

I remember that back in the day Evgenia explained what her schooling at Sambo looked like. She definitely wasn't in class for 8 or so hours a day 5 days a week like most kids. Of course we know that some Russian skaters go / went to an ordinary school but not all. It's also true that some American skaters are / were homeschooled. I think this question of schooling is pertinent because many skaters either have to or choose to go to regular school, which is not optimal for training. I'm not saying that everybody should follow the same educational path – far from it – but this is definitely something to bear in mind while comparing skaters' progress. For some sport is more of an addition to school and for some it's the other way round.

not to mention skating as a whole is not seen as a "real sport" in the USA in the same way it is in Russia, and school administrators don't believe in letting students out early, taking online classes, etc. my mom had to fight tooth and nail to get me out an hour early in high school to have better ice time and take an online class to make up for it. it's not the same as football, basketball, etc, and many schools just don't care or even make an attempt to understand.

it's a very, very different perspective in America vs Russia with school and sports.

 

[lappo]

Regarding the different schooling system, I think Mishin has a point because in many countries such as Italy we do not have schools attached to sports club who can work around the training schedule (like Sambo's school is, judging from Evgenia and Alina interviews). We don't have much homeschooling either (it would be very expensive), so there are basically two choices: private and public schools. Private schools here for the most part are for those who don't want to put any effort in their education but want a degree, so they pay and obtain it with minimum effort. So many parents choose public school, which only offers minimal advantages to athletes, even at the highest levels (I know this because my boyfriend has been the teacher of member of our junior volleyball, skying, judo and fence national teams). They basically have to follow the same 5 hours of schooling 6 days a week like other pupils, they only have right to some justified leaves for the competitions. When I think about that, I'm really grateful for all of our young athletes, who manage to be so accomplished despite not being catered with an appropriate education that can work around their schedule.

 

[VenusHalley]

Regarding the different schooling system, I think Mishin has a point because in many countries such as Italy we do not have schools attached to sports club who can work around the training schedule (like Sambo's school is, judging from Evgenia and Alina interviews). We don't have much homeschooling either (it would be very expensive), so there are basically two choices: private and public schools. Private schools here for the most part are for those who don't want to put any effort in their education but want a degree, so they pay and obtain it with minimum effort. So many parents choose public school, which only offers minimal advantages to athletes, even at the highest levels (I know this because my boyfriend has been the teacher of member of our junior volleyball, skying, judo and fence national teams). They basically have to follow the same 5 hours of schooling 6 days a week like other pupils, they only have right to some justified leaves for the competitions. When I think about that, I'm really grateful for all of our young athletes, who manage to be so accomplished despite not being catered with an appropriate education that can work around their schedule.

Yeah, in Czech Republic you can get individual study plan for athlete if you are good and have accommodating school, but there are no schools by sports clubs. You still have to turn up for exams and write papers and it depends on the school. There are school that would give kid a hell even if they were competing in Olympics over missed classes.

 

[moriel]

To be fair, only very big sport clubs in russia have schools.
So, unless you are a top or nearly top athlete, you will have to go to your regular neighbourhood school, which will not necessarily be accommodating. Homeschooling is not a cheap option either.

 

[ladyjane]

I hope there isn't an all Russian GPF, it isn't that they don't deserve it but that we all want there to be more skaters stepping up to challenge them. Makes it more interesting and gives other country's fans something to cheer for

Totally agree. Much as I love Liza, and would love to see her there, if the GPF is only Russians, I'd rather watch Russian Nationals (which is something to look forward to in any case). I like it when there's skaters from many countries - no I don't like a Russian Japanese skate off either. Bring in some Canadians, Americans, Finish and/or other countries, please. That's why the men have been more fun last year. With Sergei and Michal added to the mix (I love the grandpa's) as well as Keegan and Junhwan. 6 different countries. Now, that would be something to look forward to in ladies.

 

[Sabrina]

I hate GOE so much as it is treated like popcorn. Some skaters get high GOE while others linger around 0.5-1-2 GOE points in similar conditions Liza's 3A were all gorgeous. Good 3A and quadruples should get more points for ladies than men. It is more difficult for a female to jump 3A than for a man. And the same for quads. I love Liza and I think she deserves better GOEs for jumps and even program.

 

[Elucidus]

Tennell's uncalled URs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTJe4ksG_RE

 

[Mathman]

Tennell's uncalled URs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTJe4ksG_RE

You have posted this video on three different threads now. You seem to be on a mission.

Good 3A and quadruples should get more points for ladies than men.

An interesting proposal. Maybe ladies should get higher base value for hard jumps than men, too, since these jumps are more difficult for ladies? Fair is fair.

 

[crazydreamer]

Tennell's uncalled URs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTJe4ksG_RE

Yeah every one of those looked fully rotated to me even in slow mo.

 

[readernick]

Yeah every one of those looked fully rotated to me even in slow mo.

That's because you don't have the special bias against all non- Russian skater glasses! You need to get a pair and then I am sure you will see the URs and the giant conspiracy theory. Ask Elucidus where to buy some....

 

[lzxnl]

Yeah every one of those looked fully rotated to me even in slow mo.

That's because the video pauses it when the pick is still in the air.

 

[Ostap Bender]

Alexei Mishin made several interviews and comments. He is not happy with Skate America placement, and results from two previous competitions. He does not like the judging at Skate America (believes it was bias in favor of an American, Bradie Tennell); in another earlier interview he indicated indirectly that he was not happy that Kostornaya surprised them with 3A; saying a lot of strange things about “age and weight” and that includes (indirectly) even Tennell’s “thin built”, etc.

Here are the link and the translation to one of the interviews. (my own translation).

“Mishin comments on the low scores for Tuktamysheva and tells if Liza will continue to fight for a spot in the GPF”.
https://zen.yandex.ru/media/sportsb...sia-za-final-granpri-5dac191a04af1f00b20427b6

Mishin: If a skater makes a mistake in her programme, like it Liza did in her short programme, then it is clear to the skater, what’s wrong (what caused low marks). And then some mistakes can be explained by the coach. It is clearly the skater’s fault. But when the performance is good (worked out), and yet the judges hold back the marks (underscore), and to artificially put ahead another skater, that’s when even the coaches start asking questions.

Tuktamysheva’s coach, Alexei Mishin made comments of the performance of his skater and her marks. He stated that Liza’s performance in the Free Skate was done well. And in regards to the judging, while he does not want to start a scandal, he had to put a spoon of tar into the barel of judges’ honey, and did add that judging in America was weird.

Mishin: I do think it is true, that the judging in Las Vegas was weird. But since I am a politically correct person, I don’t want to mention the phrase that “at home even walls are on your side” and that it can reach such exaggerated levels.

Then Mishin threw an accusation in the direction of “americans”, Bradie Tennell to be specific who came 2nd after Shcherbakova (but ahead of Liza). He also added that he does not find American girls to be noticeably stronger than the Russians, in particularly not stronger than Liza Tuktamysheva.

But then Mishin said that in spite of this small injustice, Tuktamysheva will continue to fight for her place in the GPF. She will not give it up, and her team will not give up also. That the fact that she’ll continue should be viewed as an example and a role-model to all girls who are older than 15, and weight more than 40 kg”, it’s important to all who want to fight for the top spot.

That such attitude (from Mishin and Liza) is valuable to all, because in spite of such blunt unfairness in the judging, they are not giving up, and will continue to work and to grow and grow professionally.... ** end**

***

My comments. This situation is not good for Liza to work on improving what needs to be improved, and there are items to improve. At the Cup of St. Petersburg, which Liza won, she was given extremely high marks, not realistic in real competition. These marks and Mishin convinced her that she is fine and can and should win everything, because she has 3A’s. Liza believes it.

At Finlandia she basically swore and flipped out the judges, then made posts about it. She went ahead of the winners in the winner’s circle after medal ceremony. She got criticized for it, but did not learn. At Skate America Mishin again planted an idea in her head that she was put behind Tennell unfairly because “it’s in America”. Liza again, after the medal ceremony, jumped ahead of 1st and 2nd place girls, and went first. Anna would not stand for it and passed her, but Tennell just stayed behind. She did not deserve that. This is crazy, and not like Professor Mishin.

https://twitter.com/kattwts/status/1185799742057402368/video/1

https://www.instagram.com/p/B32CGUsJzuF/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Question: I did not think Liza was underscored, in any of the last three competitions. She has problems, she is slow, her spins are not that good, her jump content other than 3A is not above other skaters even lower, her choreo and interpretation is questionable to some and other items need addressing.

Anyone thinks she was underscored and should be above Tennell? I don’t. But then I am a big fan of Tennell and not a big fan of Liza. If it was not Mishin, professor Mishin, saying it, I would not worry. But up to today, I had respect for him, and now this.. (and I am not even listing other comments and interviews, those were weird too).

 

[Mishaminion]

I think it is incredibly poor sportsmanship to bring up other skaters and make the sort of comments Mishin is doing.
No wonder Liza has exhibited less than stellar manners recently, looks like she's picked them up from him.