Olympic figure skater, coaches being investigated for allegations

[ancientpeas]

The article is very careful to not connect Vanessa to any allegations, to the point of referring to her as 'his [Morgan's] partner' rather than using her name at one point, and leaving her out of the discussion almost completely. That suggests to me that at this point they have no evidence or allegations linking Vanessa to the abuse, no evidence that she was aware of it and failed in any duty she may have had as a mandatory report, and no evidence that she was involved in the cover-up, and are being very careful not to imply that she might have been as a result.



That's been discussed more than once in this thread. The boundary-transgressing, dare-like nature of the request, which takes some of the things that girls on the edge of adolescence might think or joke about between themselves when trying on ideas about growing up and gets them to act on them in a way they otherwise wouldn't (which could be judged to cause a guilt/shame reaction coupled with a transgressive thrill that would confuse them into silence, and also make the inevitable next, bigger request seem less bad), coupled with the childish 'bribe' of pizza that makes it seem less important than it is, plus the fact that they actually did it, plus the fact that when the girls clearly didn't stay silent about it/the parents realised what had happened the coach/es immediately switched to threatening them into silence, suggests very strongly that the girls were already being groomed for abuse, if not outright abused already, by that coach. Or possibly by the coach and Cipres working together.

Good lord, I hate knowing the kind of stuff you learn when you get trained as a mandatory reporter.

Another thing it's important to remember when dealing with this kind of situation is that abusers don't only groom the children they abuse; they condition the adults around those children to accept them and their boundary-crossing too, and this gives them a crew of defenders if the children do speak out. I'm seeing way too many of those dynamics reflected in what's been reported so far to be willing to discount the possibility that not only did Morgan Cipres engage in sexual misconduct towards these two girls, but at least one other person at the rink did so too.

Can I just say thank you to you for what you do as a mandatory reporter.

Too many people are ignorant of the true facts around grooming and how insidious it is.

 

[Skater Boy]

I don't think that's the case. There really isn't anything to discuss when an adult sends naked pictures to a 13 year old. He'll get what's coming to him by law enforcement and the legal system. It's the enablers, those who try to cover-up for others, that help these problems persist and tend to escape scrutiny. In the Nassar and Coughlin cases, who else was punished besides the accused? We all know more people than them knew about what was going on, to some extent.

I actually meant suicide. I think we have to be fair to everyone especially Morgan and the girl. if it is true Vinny set this up he may be the most guilty because we don't know if it was Morgan's photo and more importantly if he sent he and finally did he know the girl was a minor. So if If Vinny set this up as a joke or something and didn't tell Morgan the age of the girl well then elements of the offence probably can't be met in respect to Morgan - remember laws are different in each state and country so I am talking in generalities. Enablers are often party to the crime, obstruting justice or intimidating a witness- those are potential criminal charges - this is different from the standards and expectations of the USFSA and Safe Sport. The other issue is can they prove Morgan sent it. Even if it is his nude photo from his phone/acct can the prosecutors prove Morgansent it. Separate is the effect on this young female skater and the skating careers of Morgan and Vanessa. The three coaches and their skaters.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I actually meant suicide. I think we have to be fair to everyone especially Morgan and the girl. if it is true Vinny set this up he may be the most guilty because we don't know if it was Morgan's photo and more importantly if he sent he and finally did he know the girl was a minor. So if If Vinny set this up as a joke or something and didn't tell Morgan the age of the girl well then elements of the offence probably can't be met in respect to Morgan - remember laws are different in each state and country so I am talking in generalities. Enablers are often party to the crime, obstruting justice or intimidating a witness- those are potential criminal charges - this is different from the standards and expectations of the USFSA and Safe Sport. The other issue is can they prove Morgan sent it. Even if it is his nude photo from his phone/acct can the prosecutors prove Morgansent it. Separate is the effect on this young female skater and the skating careers of Morgan and Vanessa. The three coaches and their skaters.

Honestly, suicide is always terrible, but if someone commits a crime and faces punishment it's really up to them to decide whether to face the consequences of their actions. There's no reason to believe that is an impending possibility; that he has hired a lawyer indicates he's going to fight the allegations.

I do feel really bad for Vanessa. She can't win; if she stands by him, she will face criticism and if she breaks up the partnership, there's a big risk that she'll not get back to the top of the pairs field.

 

[WeakAnkles]

This is another one of those times when I think the world would be better off if it were left to the cockroaches. And Cher.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

It's something that was reported, after two years (two freaking years!) of shame and guilt eating away at these girls. I just hope that investigators truly get to the bottom of this, find the people responsible and that justice prevails.

Yes, I do too, really hope they will go to the bottom of it all.
I'm already trying to figure it out, not only because Morgan Ciprès is French.
If all informations in the article are right (which is a big if, of course), and supposing (that is how I read it, please tell me if I am wrong) that the first victim (what about the second one?) reported the reception of the pic to her tutor, only days after; and only Zimmerman, Fontana and Dispenza were present at the meeting where the two former were told of the pics, the very evening of their being sent; (that at least, that was what had been told to the victim or her tutor).
I have managed until now, to find only two coherent explanations, but of course would be glad to learn of other explanations making sense. Assuming too, that Morgan Ciprès did send the pics, not another person (either by hacking or by using his phone).

The first one, is that some were trying to entangle the poor girls into a rape scheme, by means of blackmail. The fact that the first victim had a tutor, makes me fear she was "chosen" as "unprotected" and unlikely to report. We do not know the situation of the other victim, but it seems she didn't report, she may have been "chosen" for this. I believe this second victim's testimony may prove essential, because she may have got "proposals", "suggestions" or even threats which may inform the prosecutors as to the objective of the perpetrators, and prove the implication of such or such person in the scheme. If this is the case, I hope each and every schemer will be found out, and also, every previous victim, to try to heal what can be healed.

The second possible explanation, is that this Vinny Dispenza convinced the girls to make a request for a pic (and they may have not known what is a d... pic), and, having got the pics, tried to blackmail Zimmermann and Fontana into we don't know what (money? Coaching such or such person? Support in an project of his?) Then Dispenza's non reporting was logical (he wanted his blackmail to succeed, a reporting would have annihilated it), and Zimmermann and Fontana wanted (a very ill-judged and unfeeling thing, particularly their harrassment of the victim, and accusing them; even if, of course, they didn't know the pics had been sollicited, hence their not telling the victim "you asked a pic") their "stars" not to be "bothered" — remember Ciprès' case was worse in their mind, believing the pics were unsollicited, so they would have been both more guilty not to have reported, and more induced not to report. As to Ciprès, I think it is important to know if he was aware of the age of the victims. (Did he know them, or their names? Could he believe they were anonymous fans, for instance? But then, there are plenty of minor FS fans, and precisely some teenagers tend to be flirty — it is normal — and must be protected, not abused even by a pic.) If he knew their age, I hope he will be punished, and I tend to think he is dangerous. If he didn't, he would have been quite imprudent, thoughtless, and, I suppose, one of those obnoxious "males", but not a criminal. While Dispenza would have used the two victims just as two disposable things to pursue his aims, and used blackmail; and Zimmerman and Fontana would have been the sort of unprotective coach I wish to no child, and I hope they wouldn't coach minors anymore.

As Lota writes, I really hope the investigators will get the bottom of it, which implies they consider the offence serious enough, do you think they will? I mean, sometimes you can still get a reaction "oh, that's just a pic sent to a girl, there's not much the matter". I hope they will take it seriously, and I hope they will really try to know for sure what has happened.

 

[saturdaysun]

Apparently this needs to be said: Not knowing someone's age before you send them lewd photos is not a defense. Not legally and it certainly shouldn't be in the court of public opinion either. Disturbing that people are starting to float this as a possible route to exoneration.

 

[SnowWhite]

Yes, I do too, really hope they will go to the bottom of it all.
I'm already trying to figure it out, not only because Morgan Ciprès is French.
If all informations in the article are right (which is a big if, of course), and supposing (that is how I read it, please tell me if I am wrong) that the first victim (what about the second one?) reported the reception of the pic to her tutor, only days after; and only Zimmerman, Fontana and Dispenza were present at the meeting where the two former were told of the pics, the very evening of their being sent; (that at least, that was what had been told to the victim or her tutor).
I have managed until now, to find only two coherent explanations, but of course would be glad to learn of other explanations making sense. Assuming too, that Morgan Ciprès did send the pics, not another person (either by hacking or by using his phone).

The first one, is that some were trying to entangle the poor girls into a rape scheme, by means of blackmail. The fact that the first victim had a tutor, makes me fear she was "chosen" as "unprotected" and unlikely to report. We do not know the situation of the other victim, but it seems she didn't report, she may have been "chosen" for this. I believe this second victim's testimony may prove essential, because she may have got "proposals", "suggestions" or even threats which may inform the prosecutors as to the objective of the perpetrators, and prove the implication of such or such person in the scheme. If this is the case, I hope each and every schemer will be found out, and also, every previous victim, to try to heal what can be healed.

The second possible explanation, is that this Vinny Dispenza convinced the girls to make a request for a pic (and they may have not known what is a d... pic), and, having got the pics, tried to blackmail Zimmermann and Fontana into we don't know what (money? Coaching such or such person? Support in an project of his?) Then Dispenza's non reporting was logical (he wanted his blackmail to succeed, a reporting would have annihilated it), and Zimmermann and Fontana wanted (a very ill-judged and unfeeling thing, particularly their harrassment of the victim, and accusing them; even if, of course, they didn't know the pics had been sollicited, hence their not telling the victim "you asked a pic") their "stars" not to be "bothered" — remember Ciprès' case was worse in their mind, believing the pics were unsollicited, so they would have been both more guilty not to have reported, and more induced not to report. As to Ciprès, I think it is important to know if he was aware of the age of the victims. (Did he know them, or their names? Could he believe they were anonymous fans, for instance? But then, there are plenty of minor FS fans, and precisely some teenagers tend to be flirty — it is normal — and must be protected, not abused even by a pic.) If he knew their age, I hope he will be punished, and I tend to think he is dangerous. If he didn't, he would have been quite imprudent, thoughtless, and, I suppose, one of those obnoxious "males", but not a criminal. While Dispenza would have used the two victims just as two disposable things to pursue his aims, and used blackmail; and Zimmerman and Fontana would have been the sort of unprotective coach I wish to no child, and I hope they wouldn't coach minors anymore.

As Lota writes, I really hope the investigators will get the bottom of it, which implies they consider the offence serious enough, do you think they will? I mean, sometimes you can still get a reaction "oh, that's just a pic sent to a girl, there's not much the matter". I hope they will take it seriously, and I hope they will really try to know for sure what has happened.

I'm not familiar with Florida law, but it's common that not knowing someone is a minor is not a valid legal defense, so even if he didn't know, it may very well have been criminal.

 

[ribbit]

The fact that the first victim had a tutor, makes me fear she was "chosen" as "unprotected" and unlikely to report.

A tutor, in English, is a person who provides extracurricular teaching in an academic subject, not a guardian. Usually parents hire a tutor for a particular subject in which their child struggles: a math tutor, a writing tutor, a Spanish tutor. But a child could also have a tutor in a subject that isn't offered in school; if parents wanted their child to learn a language that wasn't taught at school, for example, they might hire a tutor in Hebrew or Greek or Portuguese. And many universities employ advanced students who are especially strong in math or writing to staff centers where students can receive extra coaching; those advanced students are often referred to as tutors. So the fact that the girl had a tutor doesn't mean that she was unprotected, and indeed the article makes numerous references to her parents' involvement.

As Lota writes, I really hope the investigators will get the bottom of it, which implies they consider the offence serious enough, do you think they will? I mean, sometimes you can still get a reaction "oh, that's just a pic sent to a girl, there's not much the matter". I hope they will take it seriously, and I hope they will really try to know for sure what has happened.

The fact that there's just been a big story in a national newspaper by a prominent journalist probably increases the likelihood that the investigation will be taken seriously and carried as far as possible. SafeSport won't be able just to quietly drop the case and hope that it will go away; too many people are aware of the allegations and likely to ask difficult questions. (Please note that I'm not saying that SafeSport would react in such a way; I have very little knowledge of them as an organization, but I'm well aware of the power of the press to keep issues in the spotlight and create pressure to address difficult cases and awkward subjects.)

 

[el henry]

Apparently this needs to be said: Not knowing someone's age before you send them lewd photos is not a defense. Not legally and it certainly shouldn't be in the court of public opinion either. Disturbing that people are starting to float this as a possible route to exoneration.

I am afraid that the age is in fact relevant, particularly if the photographs were requested.

Criminal charges that are dependent upon one’s age would be corruption of a minor, solicitation of a minor, endangerment of a minor, or similar charges. These could apply whether or not the photographs were requested.

Under the criminal laws with which I am familiar, if a person of legal age requested these photos, and was then sent these photos, with no additional information or facts, there would be no criminal case.

The age of the recipient would not make a difference probably under the SafeSport regulations, but I have not read them in great enough detail to say.

 

[saturdaysun]

I am afraid that the age is in fact relevant, particularly if the photographs were requested.

Criminal charges that are dependent upon one’s age would be corruption of a minor, solicitation of a minor, endangerment of a minor, or similar charges. These could apply whether or not the photographs were requested.

Under the criminal laws with which I am familiar, if a person of legal age requested these photos, and was then sent these photos, with no additional information or facts, there would be no criminal case.

The age of the recipient would not make a difference probably under the SafeSport regulations, but I have not read them in great enough detail to say.

A 13-YEAR-OLD received the photos. It does not matter if Morgan knew her age or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

 

[karne]

Being ignorant of a person's age when sending lewd material is rarely, if ever, an allowable defense in law.

Plus, instagram messaging is really not anonymous. Cipres would have been able to see the girl's profile and should have realised she was A CHILD.

 

[el henry]

A 13-YEAR-OLD received the photos. It does not matter if Morgan knew her age or not. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

I am sorry, I thought you meant overall.

I also tried to do quick research into the Florida “sexting” law, boy, was that a mistake. The drafters of those laws were more convoluted than most. And Florida has evidently taken efforts to decriminalize sexting between minors, which is interesting.

But as far as I can tell, if it is proven that Morgan, who was an adult, sent those photos to the account of a 13 year old, then knowledge would not be a defense to the one count of distribution of pornography to a minor. But I certainly wouldn’t swear to that and would love to have confirmed from anyone who practices criminal law in Florida.

 

[TontoK]

Being ignorant of a person's age when sending lewd material is rarely, if ever, an allowable defense in law.

Plus, instagram messaging is really not anonymous. Cipres would have been able to see the girl's profile and should have realised she was A CHILD.

I am of another era, so perhaps that is relevant, but...

I cannot comprehend why anyone would send nude photographs of themselves to a stranger. ANY stranger, even if you thought they were an adult.

It completely confounds me that someone would do such a thing.

And I am ENTIRELY unconvinced that he didn't have an idea of the age of the girl. Even on the bizarre chance that you were going to send a nude photograph to a stranger, wouldn't you click to see who they were? I mean, you wouldn't just send that kind of photograph to anyone, would you?

 

[Tavi...]

I am of another era, so perhaps that is relevant, but...

I cannot comprehend why anyone would send nude photographs of themselves to a stranger. ANY stranger, even if you thought they were an adult.

It completely confounds me that someone would do such a thing.

And I am ENTIRELY unconvinced that he didn't have an idea of the age of the girl. Even on the bizarre chance that you were going to send a nude photograph to a stranger, wouldn't you click to see who they were? I mean, you wouldn't just send that kind of photograph to anyone, would you?

Ha - you should read the FSU thread on this, which digresses at length on who would send those pictures, whether it’s common among certain age groups, stories from people who receive these photos, etc. Plenty of speculation. Oh and at least one OK Boomer and/or pearl clutching old fogies reference.

Beyond that, there are some very interesting and informative posts.

 

[el henry]

I am of another era, so perhaps that is relevant, but...

I cannot comprehend why anyone would send nude photographs of themselves to a stranger. ANY stranger, even if you thought they were an adult.

It completely confounds me that someone would do such a thing.

And I am ENTIRELY unconvinced that he didn't have an idea of the age of the girl. Even on the bizarre chance that you were going to send a nude photograph to a stranger, wouldn't you click to see who they were? I mean, you wouldn't just send that kind of photograph to anyone, would you?

Nor do I comprehend, even for consenting adults, but that makes me a dinosaur as well.

However one thing that I have learned from the youngsters in my orbit is that there are accounts called “Finstas” which stands for fake Instagram accounts. In fact, I was advised by said youngsters to set up “Finstas” for my differering interests (@JasonsBiggestFan, here I come) rather than be a fuddy duddy with my real name and photo. I remain a fuddy-duddy.

So if Morgan indeed sent these photos to an account of @SuzyQ[realname] with profile pics and photos of Suzy skating with her adolescent friends, it’s not just horrendous, it is beyond stupid.

Just a complete mess

 

[TontoK]

Ha - you should read the FSU thread on this, which digresses at length on who would send those pictures, whether it’s common among certain age groups, stories from people who receive these photos, etc. Plenty of speculation. Oh and at least one OK Boomer and/or pearl clutching old fogies reference.

Beyond that, there are some very interesting and informative posts.

I'm a proud boomer and old fogey, I guess.

No nekkid photos of me on the internet, and trust me, no one would be interested in them now.

 

[TontoK]

Nor do I comprehend, even for consenting adults, but that makes me a dinosaur as well.

However one thing that I have learned from the youngsters in my orbit is that there are accounts called “Finstas” which stands for fake Instagram accounts. In fact, I was advised by said youngsters to set up “Finstas” for my differering interests (@JasonsBiggestFan, here I come) rather than be a fuddy duddy with my real name and photo. I remain a fuddy-duddy.

So if Morgan indeed sent these photos to an account of @SuzyQ[realname] with profile pics and photos of Suzy skating with her adolescent friends, it’s not just horrendous, it is beyond stupid.

Just a complete mess

Dinosaurs of the World, UNITE!

I'll make you a deal, dearest friend. Let's NOT send each other nude photographs!

 

[Skater Boy]

I am not sure there is any point for us to argue the law. There are all sorts of fine points of law that coe into play here and a lot depends on the law, the alleged violation section etc. I think I read somewhere if it isn't something you would want your m om to see then don't show or do it. I feel bad for everyone. Innoncent until proven guilty. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. in the court of public the careers of several may be ruined already regardless of the truth or what anyone can prove. We must remember the legal test for a conviction of a criminal offence is very different probably that safesport. We want to make it a safe environment for the ocmplainant to freely make his or in this case her claim and report. At the same time we must not take over the role of the court system and convict in our own court system or mind. I just totally hope everyone can heal even those accused and maybe did something wrong. I pray and hope for compassion and healing for all. My life was ruined by being a victim of abuse; I live a horrible life I just don'tt want that for the complainant(s) or for that matter the accused. I hope regardless of the truth and regardless of what can be proven (often two different things) that the right people are around to support this young person(s) and that the perpetrators if get the help they need. On skating note one wonders what now happens to James and Cipres and those coached by Fontana and Zimmerman I just hope no lives are lost.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

I am of another era, so perhaps that is relevant, but...

I cannot comprehend why anyone would send nude photographs of themselves to a stranger. ANY stranger, even if you thought they were an adult.

It completely confounds me that someone would do such a thing.

And I am ENTIRELY unconvinced that he didn't have an idea of the age of the girl. Even on the bizarre chance that you were going to send a nude photograph to a stranger, wouldn't you click to see who they were? I mean, you wouldn't just send that kind of photograph to anyone, would you?

I don't understand either.
And I am not convinced he didn't have an idea of the age of the girl, it is just a possibility (I don't know if he checks every profile he answers to). He should have checked, of course.

And the fact he is equally liable if he didn't know her age (thank you El Henry) doesn't prevent the material difference between an imprudent, vain male and a pædophile.

 

[beachmouse]

I also tried to do quick research into the Florida “sexting” law, boy, was that a mistake. The drafters of those laws were more convoluted than most. And Florida has evidently taken efforts to decriminalize sexting between minors, which is interesting.

I want to say that came about because the old law allowed the usual acts of stupidity you get from 14-17 year olds making bad decisions to become child pornography charges, and it was felt that was too harsh of a penalty in many/most cases for juvenile bad judgement