Women and the Quad | Page 83 | Golden Skate

Women and the Quad

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PyeongChang2018

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Is there a thread on this forum for people who wish to discuss artistry in figure skating and, as they perceive it, the current decline of the sport? I personally feel like the sport has moved in a really uninspired direction and that some of the top figure skaters right now are offering very little. I'm not asking for a thread to bash figure skaters by any means, but I do think it would be nice to have a place to discuss the magic of the work of Kim, Witt, and Miyahara and objectively talk about what sort of changes and growth we can hope to see from today's top-ranked skaters. For example, I think Kim had a really good understanding of what her body moving in space looked like to an external eye. Look at her arms raised in a circle above her head during her layback spin here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgXKJvTVW9g at 3:40. The beauty of that shape is reflective of Kim's great understanding of what she looks like from an outside eye. I think that a skater like Sotnikova, who I have tremendous respect for, could've become even greater by working to enhance her understanding of this idea, because at times her arm movement seemed like "flailing" and lacking purpose.

Basically I'm asking if there's a thread to very intelligently and respectfully discuss artistry in the sport: the current state and also past and present examples of greatness and what we can learn from them.
 
P

PyeongChang2018

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
GS Forum Staff said:
You are more than welcome to start one instead of derailing the current thread which is topic-specific :)
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Ooh passive-aggression...

Sorry. I actually do think this conversation relates to quads, though. The increase in quads is responsible, in my opinion, for a decrease in artistry.
 
Elucidus

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
PyeongChang2018 said:
Ooh passive-aggression...

Sorry. I actually do think this conversation relates to quads, though. The increase in quads is responsible, in my opinion, for a decrease in artistry.
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No, it isn't. As well as Hanyuu's programs filled with quads are highly artistic - Scherbakova's Firebird free program is one among the most artistic programs in lady skating too. Quads are just elements.

P.S.: considering that you are most likely willing to argue - just compare youtube number of views of their respective free programs which were skated both in the beginning of season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCgJlDbZ4M (this video is geoblocked in Russia, btw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w963Kl0cpb4

People likes Scherbakova's free more :popcorn:
 
P

PyeongChang2018

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Elucidus said:
No, it isn't. As well as Hanyuu's programs filled with quads are highly artistic - Scherbakova's Firebird free program is one among the most artistic programs in lady skating too. Quads are just elements.

P.S.: considering that you are most likely willing to argue - just compare youtube number of views of their respective free programs which were skated both in the beginning of season:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCgJlDbZ4M (this video is geoblocked in Russia, btw)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w963Kl0cpb4

People likes Scherbakova's free more :popcorn:
Click to expand...

I don't think number of views corresponds with artistry. There's no correlation, and a lot of factors determine how many views a video gets.

I agree Hanyu is super artistic. However, attaining a quad is easier for men than women. I'm more interested in discussing women's figure skating because frankly it's more interesting to me.

I also don't think Shcherbakova's Firebird is artistic. But let's discuss in the appropriate thread.
 
colormyworld240

colormyworld240

Medalist
Joined
Dec 9, 2017
Fluture said:
Well, then you will have to revise your argument. It‘s not “high and easy“ triples you need to attempt quads, it‘s “consistent“ triples. Which is certainly true but I do hope that we will see more ladies learn a quad who rely on height more than rotation speed.



If you don‘t consider her a stable quadster (which she isn‘t, certainly) then we run into the problem that there ARE no stable quadsters other than Sasha and Anna. Alysa underrorates/downgrades her 4Lz more often than she lands it cleanly as you‘ve made sure to remind us after each of her events during the JGP series. So, two skaters isn‘t nearly enough to make a satisfactory conclusion on the sustainability of quads in ladies. We will, as simple as that, need more time and more ladies attempting quads in competition.



Then again, your original argument is the problem because Alysa definitely does not have high triples. She is a fast rotator, sure. But the problem with that is always that you have to be physically tiny for that technique to work. Jumps like these will be consistent when you‘re young but as soon as you grow, you‘ll have to adjust the technique. And that can be very difficult.



And that‘s exactly the problem I have with the quads that are being landed in ladies at the moment. That there is the perception that you need to be “thin and light“ only. I do not think, or I do not want to think, that the only way for quads to be landed is by rotating insanely fast and being tiny enough to vault your body into the air. Tuktamysheva, if she lands her quads consistently, could prove that theory wrong and I hope she does.

Now, I do not know whether Kaori will get a quad and at the moment I think a 3A might be more attainable. But I hope that, if not her, other ladies who don‘t have that kind of tiny and light body, will land quads.



Did I make it, at any point, seem like I had something against new seniors? I don’t think so. What I was saying was merely that IF quads will only be landed by 15, 16 year olds (juniors and new seniors) in the future, I would not welcome this technical evolution. A sport like this should not be an Olympic sport. This is a very clear “IF“ though and it is perfectly possible that Sasha and Anna will keep landing quads somewhat consistently after they’ve grown. If so, and if other skaters from different nationalities, age and body types catch up, I will accept this technical leap not only as such but as a real progress for this sport. Compare it to the men’s event where it’s not just Russia, Japan and the USA. But it took a while for quads to become as much of a normality as they are now.

For this to happen in the ladies, however, I believe we will have to wait at least a few more years because big changes may happen soon but it takes much longer see the real consequences and effects. That’s not me disliking new seniors, it is me trying to think this through all the way and not just going: “yay! Quads! Progress!“



Well, first of, the discussion was about the height of the quadsters‘ triples, so neither Anna‘s 4Lz nor Tursy‘s 4S are a part of that. In fact, I actually said that it always surprises me that Anna manages to get the height she does on her quads specifically because her triples aren‘t that high.

As for the rest, I’m a bit confused tbh. Do you really mean to tell me that Anna Shcherbakova‘s jumps rely more on height than rotation speed? Because then I‘d have to check my eyes, sorry to say it as drastic as that. I‘m sure she has improved over the years but e.g. at Euros she was in the same warm-up group as Sasha, Aliona, Alexia Paganini and Emmi Peltonen all of whom had much higher jumps than she did. That‘s not saying her jumps don‘t look easy - they can, when she doesn‘t have to do them after attempting three quads and a bunch of other triples. Her 3Lz+3Lo in the SP, while not particularly high, is fast and easy and beautiful. But I would never say that she was known for being a high jumper because she just isn‘t. Now, are her triples the lowest in the field? Certainly not. At the same time, if you look at her triples (and even the quad despite the better height), it is clear to me that she‘s mostly not jumping from the legs (like Sasha does on her 4T for example) but twists her upper body into the rotation. Someone who does that doesn‘t rely on height to jump, sorry, they rely on being able to rotate very quickly.

For Tursynbaeva, you‘re comparing apples with oranges. I would certainly hope that her 4S was the highest jump in the field, considering that there were no other quad attempts. Otherwise, if it was merely as high as Alina‘s and Zhenya‘s triples, I‘d ask myself about the physics involved, allowing her to even land that jump. :laugh:

The argument wasn‘t about Tursynbaeva‘s 4S, though, it was her triples. Look at her 3Lz and 3F for example. Are they high and easy? And she hasn‘t been as consistent on her triples as Anna and Sasha have, for example, either.
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Then perhaps you should get your eyes checked. If a jump is high, that comes from jumping from the legs. Rotating quickly does not make a jump higher. As you've stated here, it is clear to you Anna's 4Lz is not from jumping from her legs. However, it's huge and that height comes from her legs. From fan measurements, Anna's solo triples are just as high as her compatriots, particularly her 3Lz and 3F this season. Now for official measurements I don't recall any done on her triples, but as I have referenced the 2A (only jump measured) is as big as Kamila's. Also, most skaters have stronger and weaker jumps. For example, I do not believe Anna will ever get a 4S because her 3S is very tiny, but her 3Lz and 3F aren't which is why she has quads on those. I think Lilbet's 3Lz is also has similar height to Alina's and Evgenia's who if I recall have above average jump height. But again, it's not her strongest jump which is why she has a 4S but not 4Lz. You can see at World's last year, Lilbet's 3S is indeed huge.

All jumps rely on both height and rotation speed, as do quads. Otherwise Tsurskaya and Chen would be jumping 4Lzes as they have the highest 3Lzes. But, it's unfair to say that certain skaters' quads are only a result of quick rotation because of how they twist into rotation, when they are just as high as Trusova's. This is the case for Anna. Regarding Lilbet, I believe Sasha's 4S was also measured at a competition this season, so it'd be interesting to compare those numbers. Of course it would be nice to see the data for their 3S as well but to my knowledge this is not available.
 
Vandevska

Vandevska

U don't have to build the end of the world out it.
Medalist
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Anna's triples this season are way bigger than last season. Like, watch last year's senior nationals, she does that massive quad but the triples are tiny. This year with the addition of the 4F her 3F has become bigger, by training the 3A her 2A has become bigger.
 
Edwin

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Kamila's quads today were cosmic, Sof'ya's weren't bad either but need some more polishing. Maya jumped an excellent 4S in warmups. Lisa Berestovskaya's may be tiny and unstable yet, but she is determined to master them.
 
Edwin

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Mawwerg said:
Girls are working hard. Quads count: 120
Click to expand...

Yes, ultra-si is the big trend now, and, even though difficult, not unattainable giving the strong basics and physical prowess of many of those young skaters we've seen over the past few days.
Some girls small and packed with muscle, others lean and lanky but still flying and jumping high. Speed is a first requirement in quads.
 
Elucidus

Elucidus

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 19, 2017
Edwin said:
Yes, ultra-si is the big trend now, and, even though difficult, not unattainable giving the strong basics and physical prowess of many of those young skaters we've seen over the past few days.
Some girls small and packed with muscle, others lean and lanky but still flying and jumping high. Speed is a first requirement in quads.
Click to expand...

I would argue that not so much speed as body alignment during the jump. Many skaters just can't keep together their legs and arms as early and tight as it needed. And with proper body position - rotation speed will increase automatically.
 
Edwin

Edwin

СделаноВХрустальном!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Elucidus said:
I would argue that not so much speed as body alignment during the jump. Many skaters just can't keep together their legs and arms as early and tight as it needed. And with proper body position - rotation speed will increase automatically.
Click to expand...

Edge jumps need speed, or rather forwards momentum, to convert kinetic energy into potential energy, according to my understanding of Newtonian physics. Pushing off and jumping off obviously deliver quite some impulse too.

High speed footage of quads and triksels would be awesome.

Some scientific crew should visit Khrustalniy....
 
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