Well, quads take forever to set up. Lots of men have this problem too where they set up their quad using 10 seconds of aimless skating (in which I believe there should be a GOE penalty for that, but ISU doesn't seem to care). I don't think artistry is the main issue with women doing quads in the short.
Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?
- Thread starter Sam-Skwantch
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Well, quads take forever to set up. Lots of men have this problem too where they set up their quad using 10 seconds of aimless skating (in which I believe there should be a GOE penalty for that, but ISU doesn't seem to care). I don't think artistry is the main issue with women doing quads in the short.
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I think the answer to these questions i pretty obvious. Men and quads -- some good, some bad -- have been gradually advancing for decades. Once in a while people raise the issue of quality, but it seems like old news. *yawn*.
Likewise, Midori Ito and Tonya Harding did triple Axels thirty years ago; twenty years ago we had Yukuri Nakano and Ludmilla Nelidina; and at the 2018 Olympics, Mirai Nagasu. Although Ito at least was very much admired, still, these feats did not start a revolution or turn the world of figure skating upside down.
The Russian miracle girls did. It is natural that they receive the most attention and the closest scrutiny. Think of it as a compliment -- nobody bothers to criticize others because the Russian girls are pretty much the whole story of figure skating this season.
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Well, there used to be the "connecting steps" rule for the solo jump which they got rid of recently. That's probably the closest we've ever got to a rule that somewhat intended to mediate the long set-ups, and even then the judges weren't following it properly anyways which made it almost a pointless rule.
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Ya know ... I’m not so sure a 3a necessarily has the quickest set up itself or that it even needs one. I loved Mao Asada and her Piano Concerto No. 2 in 2013-14 was an amazing program but if you watch it she was able to spend almost an entire minute ( ~25% of the FS) setting up two 3a’s with little else during that entire minute from about the 1:14 mark to the 2:09 mark.
https://youtu.be/w05-e4ap1BA
I don’t remember too many folks complaining that Mao’s program was lacking and in fact I specifically remember others (like myself) rooting her on to complete an 8 triple performance. She was pushing the boundaries and I think using a very long set up to accomplish an athletic feat but as to my earlier point...I don’t think her performance suffered and her score certainly didn’t as she scored 4pts higher PCS than her nearest competitor. I mean the tension and excitement of those moments were certainly felt not only in that building but around the world as she set up for each jumping pass. Yes it was my avatar (Yulia) she beat but I still always pulled for and adored Mao and never disputed those results...well I don’t usually dispute results very often (honestly I don’t remember if I ever have
) but certainly not in this instance. I think this demonstrates that a skater can use long set ups and large chunks of their programs dedicated to big jumps and still score fine and have a meaningful performance.
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Why are you so concerned about Russian ladies? Short careers due to high level of competition and, therefore, high demand of complex tech content - it's only Russian ladies issue. All other athletes from all other countries are fine - they can have easy and long careers without problems - with quads or without them, with age 18 or 15. Again, why local national problem is so important for you?
It's not truth - and we both know it. Tuktamysheva and Rika have pretty decent chances to land rotated quad in international competition eventually. I believe it will be next season, highly likely.
Again, why are you become concerned only now - when junior pre-pubescent men were training quads for decades? You think girls are weaker than boys? No, in fact it's the opposite - in pre-pubescent age girls bodies are stronger and less prone to injuries than boys. Again, why no one cared about kids health until only Russian junior girls started to put themselves on the same level as boys?
You don't know me since you've only been here since late 2017. My son was born in late 2017 so I'm not on much since then. But pretty much every assumption you've made about me is incorrect. I have always been a big supporter of Russian figure skating particularly ladies. I have in the past expressed concern about the effect of training quads on boys, and my concern about this remains.
As for I'd Tukt (whose fanfest I started, go check if you like, I'll be excited if she lands a quad) and Rika landing full rotated quads in competition I will believe it when I see it. I am actually very good at admitting when I am wrong and if I end up being wrong and 20-something women start regularly doing quads so be it. But it seems clear to me the quad in women favors a certain body type- one even elite skaters don't have after puberty 99% of the time. We'll know better in a few years.
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The SP and FS were supposed to show different facets of skating. The SP was supposed to have elements that most skaters at a given level could perform. The standalone jump was a double, but it was different every year to encourage kids to learn every jump with acceptable technique. The combination rotated between a loop combination one year and a toe loop combination another year, again to force skaters to learn all the skills.
It was to be a demonstration of skill and finesse, and wasn't as likely to be a splat fest.
I do not think it would be a bad idea to go to an updated version of something like that. The combo could be a quad combo, if the skater wanted, to allow the tech wizards to strut their stuff. The axel could be 2A or 3A. And the remaining jump must be a triple, to be judged on good technique, height and distance measured as the Japanese do, and require complex steps on the entry.
And use the same rule for men and ladies. And the same PCS factor for both.
We would see more variety that way, and everyone would have the best chance to show their best skills.
Dreaming, of course.
It was to be a demonstration of skill and finesse, and wasn't as likely to be a splat fest.
I do not think it would be a bad idea to go to an updated version of something like that. The combo could be a quad combo, if the skater wanted, to allow the tech wizards to strut their stuff. The axel could be 2A or 3A. And the remaining jump must be a triple, to be judged on good technique, height and distance measured as the Japanese do, and require complex steps on the entry.
And use the same rule for men and ladies. And the same PCS factor for both.
We would see more variety that way, and everyone would have the best chance to show their best skills.
Dreaming, of course.
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What also made the SP exciting (and a little different than the LP) was that it was a high-pressure event. Most of the time, a major error took you out of contention for the gold medal, so you were really at the edge of your seat watching your favorites. Without a return to ordinal rankings, that aspect of the SP is gone for good and, again, makes the SP more like a shorter LP.
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I think what mostly changed over the years was not the short program but the long. It became more and more jumpy with less and less attention paid to other aspects of skating. This became especially obvious in the IJS era where you could see right there in black and white: quad toe-loop, 10.3 points; level 4 layback spin 2.7 points.
Ito and Harding could not make 3A as common element of ladies skating at their time.
But IMO, they were a later part of previous revolution that champions hardest jump was 2A (Hamill 1976) to 3Lz (Yamaguchi 1992).
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Because quads allow people with little artistry to win.
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a terrible crime in a SPORT
It is a sport and also an art.
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And this is precisely why there will be controversy and strife as long as this sport exists in this form, because art cannot be evaluated objectively. Basically wanting to combine sport with art under competitive conditions is nonsense.
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Not sure about that. It was working just fine when we were getting memorable performances from the top competitors, like Witt's Carmen, Yuna's Gershwin...
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I think it does a disservice to figure skating to pretend that there is absolutely zero objectivity in evaluating artistry. Of course it's subjective, but there are tangible aspects of skating that artistry comprises, and I'm not talking about the elements of the components score that we've been conditioned to accept as a marker of artistry.
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The whole point really. To be truly honest, I wouldn't mind it if men could no longer do quads in the short. Which I presume is a different take on this issue: I do think the demands and requirements between ladies and men should be similar. Not ladies and men competing together or something (I suppose Madge Syers would have something to say about that). But why not make the SP that part of the competition where cleanliness counts, not jumping ability.
I like it that in Juniors the men's SP is not a splat fest because they have to stick to triples. Probably backwards thinking to some, but that's not what I mean. To me, the fact that IJS quantified elements is not a bad thing. I'm no stickler for getting the 6.0 system back. I like jumps - as long as they're an integral part of a programme and not the only thing that counts. To me, the 4CC results showed that they don't have to be, even in the current system. And it's not necessary to have a technical and artistic programme (see the threads about that for pro's and con's to that idea), but an SP focussing on how the elements (all the elements) are executed would do the job.
Well, my answer would be 'no quads' in the ladies SP, but no quads in the mens either. Ahem....
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It's a lie. Remind me, how many competitions Orzel won, for example?
Hell, even Boyang Jin, Messing or Cha- which are much more artistically strong multiquadsters - can't even dream about winning over quadless skaters such as Brown nowadays :confused2: Why there are so much whining about presumable quads domination in current system - is beyond me :scratch3: Real life shows absolutely opposite - modern judging favors clean triples and PCS side of skating much more than technicians now, already. There is no need to humiliate technical skaters even more than that - banning only weapon they can fight with.
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It's a lie. Remind me, how many competitions Orzel won, for example?
Sorry Elucidus, I don't agree with you at all (well perhaps I do about the whining, but that's a different issue). Modern judging favours quads, not clean triples. And it's certainly not about humiliating anyone - be she/he a quadster or not. I won't go into detail but when Jason finally won a medal at 4CC, to me it felt like a kind of justice. Finally the skater, not the jumper (although he executes fine triples) gets a medal. And when Boyang (a favourite of mine, and I always get angry when people say he's just jumps), Messing (another favourite of mine) make big mistakes (quite apart from their quad jumping abilities) it's fair when they loose. Cha is a different skater, he genuinely is an artistically strong multiquadster and I held him high. Het got UR'ed, and that held him down. I may not have agreed with the UR's (another discussion, and not for me because I can't see it good enough), but to me if he hadn't got those, he would have been in front of Jason. Despite me (but I'm not a judge or a TC) just loving Jason because of skating so perfectly and emotionally moving me, I would have accepted that because Cha is a truly artistic skater. Modern judging does not favour clean triples and PCS now already. Only when quadsters fail (and I agree that Cha did not fail, but in this case the UR thing played an important part), can this happen. Luckily for Jason it did. And I just cried because I was so moved. Not quantifiable, agreed. But I wouldn't call it whining. And certainly not humiliating towards technical skaters.
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