Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

[flanker]

I was undecided about this question, until it struck me:

If juniors include skaters 15 up to 16 or 17, then they meet minimum age requirement for Olympic eligibility.

That means that, similarly to different weight classes in so many Olympic sports, we could see two separate divisions competing amongst themselves for two Olympic competitions at each Olympic games in the future!

Remember there are Youth Olympic Games already.

Edit: I see it was pointed out already.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Remember there are Youth Olympic Games already.

Indeed, but they're not as big of a deal. I didn't even know they existed until a couple of years ago!

Although...since skaters 15 years and older can go to the regular Olympics does that mean only skaters under that age should be able to skate in the Youth Olympics? Otherwise you really could compete in two separate age divisions!

 

[Edwin]

I still think IOC should raise minimum age in all sports to 18. No more minors, only legal adults, consenting and in the full knowledge of what they are doing for and to themselves.

Some sports artistic coordination sports like gymnastics and figure skating might need a medior category, to fill the gap between junior and senior.

 

[flanker]

True.

What about Rhythmic Gymnastics and Artistic Gymnastics?

Maybe they could stage Technical Skating; including a round of compulsory jumps, as well as a typical program.

And an Artistic Skating competition, where the normal program is combined with a solo dance program with restrictions on jumping.

I'm no expert in gymnastics, but from what I know even in rhytmic gymnastics they say the technical side is growing in the importance over the artistic side. And I don't think the solution would be further splitting into more and more specialized branches.

Rather then dividing technical and artistic side of figure skating I would vote for more precise defining of the components (or rather their levels) and setting the standards for them like they did with technical elements.

 

[Edwin]

FIG has already tried to micro-manage the Code of Points (in artistic at least), and it has not done them, the gymnasts, gymnastics as a whole any favours.

Rhythmic is so Russia dominated it is probably already Russia's way or no way?

 

[flanker]

Indeed, but they're not as big of a deal. I didn't even know they existed until a couple of years ago!

Although...since skaters 15 years and older can go to the regular Olympics does that mean only skaters under that age should be able to skate in the Youth Olympics? Otherwise you really could compete in two separate age divisions!

The age restrictions for the YOG are very weird, because one year of birth is always missed. Like this year single skaters could've been born between 2003-2005, at the previous event it was 1999-2001. So 2002 year of birth was out, the next out is 2006, which means Kamila, Daria, Maiia and Alina before them can never compete at the YOG.

Of course YOG is far from the impact of the regular olympics, I knew there's something like that but really watched it this year for the first time thanks to figure skating

 

[Mathman]

Maybe they could stage Technical Skating; including a round of compulsory jumps, as well as a typical program.

Back in the 1970s when compulsory figures bgan to be phased out, this was the idea of the Technical Program (now called the Short Program) and the Free Program (Long Program). Specific jumps were required in the SP, etc.

Over the years the two programs switched roles. Now the short program, in my opinion, is where we seee more satisfying artistry and the long program has become little more than jump, jump, jump.

Anyway, the ISU is actively considering a change of format to two equally weighted programs of equal length, a Technical Program and and Artistic Program, possibly with separate medals for each together with an overall combined winner. To me, this is a more promising approach than adjusting age limits.

So far Mr. Lakernik and his crew have not provided many details, but prsumably the rules would be something along the lines of restricting the number of quads allowed in the Artistic Program and putting greater weight on the PCSs. No matter what, though, it is hard to see how skaters like Nathan Chen and Alexandra Trusova could lose in overall point totals to skaters whose strengths are more on the performance side.

 

[Mathman]

I think tht I am virtually alone in thinking that the judges actually do a pretty good job in their role of evaluators of skills and program merit. We can't really give Trusova 5s and 6s in program components, becuse the 0.1 to 10.0 scoring system has to accommodate all skatrs at all levels, from beginners on up, not just the handful of top-ranked perforrmeers that we see on TV or in intrnational competition.

As for the current split between tech and performance, I would say that it is more 70-30 than 50-50. Two of the three Program categories, Skating Skills and Transitions, belong on the technical side of the ledger (although of course we hope that skaters will put their skating skills and "in-betweens" to the service of musical interpretation and choreography). Likewise the GOEs, though they supposedly reward "quality," still, technical factors such as height and distance of jumps, steps and turns leading into highlight elements, and the like, play a large role.

Actually, I don't know what I think. In gymnastics my favorite ladies' apparatus is the vault. I ought to like floor the best -- but the routines we see nowadays are just a series of tumbling passes with some desultory posing in between whilee the athletes catch thir breath. This emphasizes that this is a sport for little girls -- adults need not apply. To me, the same danger awaits figure skating.

 

[Skatesocs]

Actually, I don't know what I think.

I think there are two interpretations to this.

What is the purpose of competitive sport?

1. To entertain an audience
2. To determine who is the best

If you believe it is 2, then if someone redefines a sport a certain way to change what "the best" means, you have to accept that. You may disagree with the new definition. But it's the new definition.

 

[Edwin]

unless you're indestructible in body and mind, continuous progress in top difficulty and a long career are mutually exclusive.

there is a cap on one or the other

 

[Edwin]

technically or artistically?

raising the minimum age IMO still only is meant to stop Russian figure skating from dominating in women's and pairs, where being young, strong, small is the key.
I've been a bit out of the loop over the summer, when there was an ISU congress planned. Was that still being held in virtual configuration?

 

[NaVi]

As far as the Olympics and age categories go, figure skating is special from an Olympic ratings perspective and should be treated specially. Sure it opens a can of worms that many won't want to be opened, but you have to ask to find out.

I wrote a thread about this: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...ould-ask-ioc-to-allow-2-age-categories.79952/

My proposal is basically this: At the Olympics, instead of having 30 singles compete in an event that there should be two events with 18 skaters each. One event for skaters 15-19 or 20 or 21 and another event for skaters above the threshold. The max number of skaters that a country could send to each event should be reduced from 3 to 2. Max entries for a country would be 2 for lower age ladies, 2 for higher age ladies, 2 for lower age men, and 2 for higher age men.

Benefits of doing this: We double the amount of heros/celebrities/whatever created. Double the Olympic "moments". Creates better tv content. It would help ensure a more level competition between (female) body types which could potentially help extend careers.

Doesn't it seem a bit weird to you that 6 of the people in each event won't make the cutoff for the free skate? I've been in similar situations myself where I've been knocked out early in a tourney and it's depressing. It's a waste of Olympic spots.

It also seems to me that 18 skaters is a more digestible competition than 24.

This proposal would only require 6 more Olympic participants in each event. In an age where the IOC is trying to keep costs down, this should be pretty digestible. Far more digestible than Synchro...

The potential way to get around it though is to create new events and on those events have separate age qualifications. One event could use IJS and another event could use a separate judging system. Either an ordinal system like 6.0 or perhaps a CoP system with a looser requirements on things like spins and steps and perhaps focuses more on jump amplitude than on rotations.

 

[lariko]

I think Gorshkov responded with a shrug some time ago, about raising the age limits, saying, “Trust me, it wouldn’t present a problem for Russia.”

as for the 6.0 system, may it be forever remain on the bottom of the dumpster of history. It’s probably the worst in class for judging an athletic competition, with zero transparency, fairness or clarity. After the judging scandals it cannot and should not come back. Give the spins and spirals higher BoV, if needed, but PCS is enough for muddying the water and refining the rankings behind the stage.

it doesn’t matter what age they are or how loved they are by the fans. If they are in a competition, everyone must be scored the same way.

older age competitions exist, junior competitions exist, so everyone could find them and follow them if they are interested in specific content.

 

[Mathman]

I think there are two interpretations to this.

What is the purpose of competitive sport?

1. To entertain an audience
2. To determine who is the best

If you believe it is 2, then if someone redefines a sport a certain way to change what "the best" means, you have to accept that. You may disagree with the new definition. But it's the new definition.

But then again, who do we mean by "someone." If it is the powers that be, then, hey, we always have the option to Fight the Power.

To me, 1) and 2) work together. The biggest entrtainmeent lollapalooza in the U.S. is the Super Bowl -- where we try to deterrmine which team is the best. In every sport the rules for deciding who is best is under constant review and revision, with an eye for generating the maximum audience inteerst. In American football, every year the NFL makes changes in the rules according as to whether they think the offenses are getting ahead of the defenses, or vice versa -- and whather the audience is better pleased by seeing a touchdown or a goal line stand. Billions of dollars are at stake, should the NFL brass guess wrong.

 

[Mathman]

I think Gorshkov responded with a shrug some time ago, about raising the age limits, saying, “Trust me, it wouldn’t present a problem for Russia.

I guess Mr. Gorshkov means that it doesn't matter to Russia whether the sport is dominated by Zagitova, Medvedeva and Tuktamysheva, or by Trusova, Shcherbakova and Kostornia, or by Valieva and Usacheva.

It doesn’t matter what age they are or how loved they are by the fans. If they are in a competition, everyone must be scored the same way.

The question, though, is how they should be scored. Should the IJS put the heaviest weight on skills that children are naturally better at than older skaters, or should they change the mix in some way.

 

[Mathman]

What I mean is this: if Sasha Trusova's artistry is so pale in comparison to Kamila Valieva, then speak it plainly. If Kamila deserves 9's in PCS, then Sasha deserves 5's or 6's. This is not meant as an insult to Sasha, but as a fair acknowledgement of the exceptional qualities of a Valieva or a Kostornaia or a Kostner.

This could easily be accomplished just by weighting the PCSs more heavily, so that a 1-point advantage in Choreography and interpretation, say, would be more decisive than currently. (To me, Trusova is not bad at the second mark skills -- sort of liike Nathan Chen compared to Yuzuru Hanyu. But anyway ... )

To tell the truth, I think that the rapid technical advances have painted the ISU into a corner from which there is no escape. A quad Lutz is really, really hard. You just have to give a whopping bucketful of points to anyone who can do one. Fans like me who like to see the performers skating around all graceful and pretty -- I think we are out of luck.

 

[lariko]

I guess Mr. Gorshkov means that it doesn't matter to Russia whether the sport is dominated by Zagitova, Medvedeva and Tuktamysheva, or by Trusova, Shcherbakova and Kostornia, or by Valieva and Usacheva.



The question, though, is how they should be scored. Should the IJS put the heaviest weight on skills that children are naturally better at than older skaters, or should they change the mix in some way.

They already score the skills that are purportedly are only accessible the day the skater had turned 18, if you add PCS component to the spins, choreo and step sequence.

And, tbh, those who spin well, start spinning well in childhood.

in the latest CoR, in juniors, that bigger older guy from Novosibirsk barely eked out the 6th position because the younger kids skated around his jumps with their supposedly ‘adult’ skills, and I don’t really see how his younger age made Kutovoy a better jumper...

 

[ladyjane]

To me a possible age raise has little to do with jumpers (there are also older men and ladies who are good at that too) or artistic riders (as there's quite a few good young ones at that part too). It's got all to do with what I wish to see in professional sport. That is adults on their game. Of course offically, FS is amateur sport, but what I mean is that at the highest level of a sport, it should be adults. That age starts at 18 (!!!!!) or even 21 if you like. When I want to watch juniors - and I do enjoy watching them - I'll go and see a Juniors competition. The JGP, the Junior Worlds, the YOG are all great. Do I care whether there are more quads among the babies than among the adults? I do not. Do I care when the only girls in juniors are boyish figured because they haven't passed puberty? I do when it's supposed to be adults at work, not kids. Not even because of those figures as such, as some women will always remain boyish in figure, but I just wish to see adults. Young adults, but still adults. The same applies to boys and men to be fair. They also go through growth spurts which change their bodies. I didn't start to really enjoy Nathan Chen at work in seniors until after he went to college. Do I care whether the athletes are from Russia or other places? I do not. I like Elisaveta and Evgenia much better now than I did a few years ago - although their results presumably are less. I really enjoy the 3A (can we still call them that?) because they are really good. But, if it was up to me they would have gone up for at least another year in juniors. They are kids, teenagers yes, but still kids.

I also worry about the health in later life of these youngsters who do all these difficult things so early. But that's not the main reason for me wishing that the minimum age level for seniors would be raised. Children and juniors are wonderful to watch, but not as if they're ready for the senior scene.

I hope not to have kicked to many people with all this. It's definitely not meant as undervaluing young skaters.

 

[Skatesocs]

If it is the powers that be, then, hey, we always have the option to Fight the Power.

We do have the option to fight the power. We haven't stopped complaining about it on forums or Twitter. But we must accept the current state of skating nonetheless, much like we have always had to accept the changes in skating, figures or no, 6.0 or IJS.

To me, 1) and 2) work together.

Knew you'd bring that up. Can you be sure that the current state of skating *isn't* combining 1 and 2? It's losing interest in some parts of the world. But it's gaining rapid interest in others, the parts of the world that the skaters are doing well in. If the system changes again and the skating centre of power shifts again... Who will say 1) and 2) aren't working together?

But then again, who do we mean by "someone."

Saved this for last. Recall that with the advent of IJS, some of the skaters themselves (Sasha Cohen, Nobunari Oda) were saying that skating is no longer just about who landed what, and reputation can't be used as a veil. Maybe they'll say otherwise now, but really, who's to say it's just TPTB, or any one group?

To me, even though I do love Kwan, Cohen, Kim, Asada, so on, so much more, it was a phase of skating that no longer lives. I have the option to stop watching.

 

[Mathman]

And, tbh, those who spin well, start spinning well in childhood.

They do. Plus, many of the juniors ar not noticably inferior to older skaters in performance and "soul."

I don't know if I am cheered by this or the opposite. It seems like in most sports you get better and better. Each year you go higher, faster, stronger than the year before. Not so in figure skating -- usually the opposite.