Raising minimum age for seniors from 15 to 17?

[Mathman]

Knew you'd bring that up. Can you be sure that the current state of skating *isn't* combining 1 and 2? It's losing interest in some parts of the world. But it's gaining rapid interest in others, the parts of the world that the skaters are doing well in. If the system changes again and the skating centre of power shifts again... Who will say 1) and 2) aren't working together?

Actually I think th ISU is doing a pretty good job of providing a satisfying product to audiences (1) while setting forth a scoring system that lets us detremine "who was better" (2). I do not see any tension between these two goals. Each informs the other.

 

[lariko]

Not really? There is such a thing as athletic ceiling. People don’t improve indefinitely, otherwise we’d still be watching Katarina Witt...

 

[lariko]

Also, Valieva is lucky in that she, like Zagitova, might have a breakout year, before Samodelkina, Zhilina and Akatiyeva hit the seniors, whatever the minimal age will be at the time, at least within Russia. Outside Russia, who knows.

the calls for age limit change might have made a bit of rule-bending sense to artificially bar the 3A from the entry into seniors, but COVID did it for them, and the way it’s looking atm, Zagitova might remain the reigning world champion for 3 years. And the trio is about to hit 17 anyway by the next season, so, ironically, they would be the ones benefiting from it.

but honestly, those calls were not made in mind with the hope that by next June, Trusova will acquire a soulful artistic quality (through, no doubt, sailing the ocean of mud) and embark on a 10-year long reign with her mighty properly aged spins.

 

[karne]

I think the other thing people keep overlooking is that arbitrarily raising the age limit to 18 won't stop those under 18 training the hard elements. They'll still do it.

 

[Myr]

I think one problem is cause by the increased visibility of juniors in recent years. Instead of enjoying the current crop of skaters we are increasingly looking at the next generation because we know the next Olympic champion will probably be among them. In some cases this results in an unbelievable amount of pressure being put on very young shoulders. Liu, Gogolev, Valieva and others are in turns hyped up and then torn down again. Increasing the age limit might alleviate some of this, give them some more time to develop outside of the public eye.

Secondly, I do not think it would be a bad idea that the majority of skaters go through puberty before they enter seniors, this seems to be already the case with the men who often go through a grow spurt before turning senior. Juniors would not stop training the difficult elements it just gives them the time to restabilise them in an environment where the consequences of failure are less dire for their career. Right now in Russia it seems skaters are in danger of being set aside because they grow which (temporarily) affects their jumps.

 

[Mathman]

but honestly, those calls were not made in mind with the hope that by next June, Trusova will acquire a soulful artistic quality (through, no doubt, sailing the ocean of mud) and embark on a 10-year long reign with her mighty properly aged spins.

I do think it would be a good thing for the sport if Trusova has a ten-year career at the top, whether by out-quadding everyone else year after year or by boosting her performances in other ways. I think that it is good for a sport to have stars -- think of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic -- who can build up fan enthusiasm incrementally and make a lasting mark.

A revolving door of today's wunderkind being tomorrow's "Didn't you used to be an ice skater?" makes a difficult challenge for building a fan base.

 

[lariko]

I do think it would be a good thing for the sport if Trusova has a ten-year career at the top, whether by out-quadding everyone else year after year or by boosting her performances in other ways. I think that it is good for a sport to have stars -- think of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic -- who can build up fan enthusiasm incrementally and make a lasting mark.

A revolving door of today's wunderkind being tomorrow's "Didn't you used to be an ice skater?" makes a difficult challenge for building a fan base.

I prefer not knowing who wins & that’s how the skaters from smaller federations get noticed, because they have longevity in sport. If the same person from a big federation wins and stays on top for 5 years, it creates stagnation and the podium is locked out, what’s good in that?

I prefer to be a fan of someone who has a chance to win, but not guaranteed to win. I have time and I like the suspense and the novelty each season brings. I love male skating and Chen is bee’s knees, but Chen/Hanyu always wining makes it pretty boring to watch the scramble for bronze.

I think it’s cool that ladies’ field is different and nothing guarantees a win.

 

[Znowflake]

I do think it would be a good thing for the sport if Trusova has a ten-year career at the top, whether by out-quadding everyone else year after year or by boosting her performances in other ways. I think that it is good for a sport to have stars -- think of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic -- who can build up fan enthusiasm incrementally and make a lasting mark.

A revolving door of today's wunderkind being tomorrow's "Didn't you used to be an ice skater?" makes a difficult challenge for building a fan base.

The skaters I remember and have enjoyed are exactly these w long careers ie K Browning, Kostner, Slutskaya, Plushenko etc..

 

[bubblecherry]

I like the idea to change the minimum to 16 or 17. It doesn’t fix all of the issues, but a lot of Men already wait longer to enter seniors, anyway.

My personal proposal would be to tweak the SP and FS requirements. Make the SP the more artistic program, and keep the FS requirements the same (or similar)

Something like
SP: 3 minutes, 3 required jumps incl. 1 combo, BV of all triples (minus axel) the same, no quads, add choreography sequence, increase PCS value, bonuses for spins/spins with less requirements that would allow for more creativity

FS: mostly keep the same

That way both programs still keep the integrity of sport and art, but there are different focuses and requirements in each.

 

[vorravorra]

technically or artistically?

raising the minimum age IMO still only is meant to stop Russian figure skating from dominating in women's and pairs, where being young, strong, small is the key.
I've been a bit out of the loop over the summer, when there was an ISU congress planned. Was that still being held in virtual configuration?

Extreme youth is not an advantage in pairs, nobody has dominated at age <17 so far. What raising the age would do is make things more difficult for pairs with a large age gap because of the man ageing out. But none of the top Russian pairs right now have a large age gap.

 

[777]

I think Gorshkov responded with a shrug some time ago, about raising the age limits, saying, “Trust me, it wouldn’t present a problem for Russia.”

For a country that produced Butyrskaya, Slutskaya, Tuktamysheva it probably wouldn't. For Tutberidze's system though it would require some major adjustments.

 

[Mathman]

Extreme youth is not an advantage in pairs, nobody has dominated at age <17 so far. What raising the age would do is make things more difficult for pairs with a large age gap because of the man ageing out. But none of the top Russian pairs right now have a large age gap.

Ekaterina Gordeeva at 16 was already two-time world champion and Olympic gold medalist. (Grinkov was 4 years older.)

 

[Skatesocs]

Ekaterina Gordeeva at 16 was already two-time world champion and Olympic gold medalist. (Grinkov was 4 years older.)

Can't speak for them, but I don't see why you would bring up a pair that competed late 80s/early 90s for a rebuttal to "nobody has dominated at age <17 so far"? I think they meant "recently/under the current system". I'd assume the much different system and certainly large gap in years has changed the way the pairs are made to build their careers since then.

 

[vorravorra]

Yes, I wasn't looking that far back since raising the age is a current issue. What may give an edge to the Russians is the multitude of girls who can jump well but not quite well enough to make it in the ultra-competitive singles field. So you end up with relatively strong jumpers switching to pairs. But nobody would bet on a pair which only works because the girl is prepubescent, such pairs are mismatched and have no prospects. This is very different to singles.