2023-24 Grand Prix Final Senior Men Short Program

[throw_triple_flip]

BARELY in front of Shoma.

Man, all that for 1 point more? That ain't right, justice for the Quad Axel I say!

His (what I consider to be) very generous PC scores were likely influenced by the tech content. Even with a quad axel, does he really deserve to be miles ahead of Shoma Uno?

And if you up the base value you're basically changing the rules of the sport to benefit just one person which is never gonna happen. Before they lowered the base values of all quads it often felt like someone who did a load of quads but fell on most of them were getting over rewarded for that. Pushing the jump tech is admirable and good, but the sport (and it's technical difficulties) are not all about the jumps.

And it's not like the lower base value is actually really stopping him. He knows how much it was worth and still chose to make history.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I am flummoxed by the -5 GOE awarded to the 4A by one judge. I can only assume it was an input error. If it were something more sinister, that will have to be addressed. In any event, I don't think it had a lot of impact to the standing, as it was dropped as the low score. I think that 4A was the best I've seen him do in competition.

Reminds me of one Challenger event YEARS ago when Daniel Samohin was competing and some judge had a 3.something for one of the PCS scores. Can't remember which component it was for, but it was vastly lower than the other scores for that component and the others.

Thank goodness highest and lowest GOE and PCS scores are factored out for the average.

 

[icewhite]

Okay, about the scoring:
The 4A should be worth more. 15 points I think would be adequate.
At the same time PCS should be much more independent from the TES.
I think Ilia's score overall is fine, but only because it is wrong in 2 ways...

The PCS are all over the place and don't represent the actual skills and programs. Since the competitors are very close in this event correct judging of PCS becomes even more important. Yuma has the best skating skills of them all and the ss score should show that. Adam's presentation is too low in comparison to the others. Shoma's composition score seems too high to me.

The placements are alright, but the scores are not. I just hope it does not matter in the end. Judges need to do better, since they were very fast at this event - maybe take your time and look again. I'd rather wait a minute longer each time and get a more accurate score.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Seriously? The usual BS, of course. Dumbest scoring system ever.

I don't understand your attitude. He got credited for it. He's subject to the same rules as any other skater. So really, what's the issue?

 

[lariko]

For those complaining he should be miles ahead... you need to understand how scoring works Ilia's Base Value with a quad axel is only a couple points more than Shoma (or Adam if he didn't pop) as they too have high valued quads in their short program. It's 5 points higher than guys who do the two simpler quads.

4A and 4lz (12.5 + 11.5) are higher base value than Uno's 4F and 4T (11+9.5) is 24 to 20.5, by 3.5 points, not a couple (2). Kagiyama has 4T and 4S, at 19.2, so by base value Malinin is 4.8 points ahead of him.

Malinin's GoEs should be higher than Uno's on at least 4F, and Kagiyama didn't bring his best jumping technique to China. And, honestly, Fa scoring nearly 90 for a program that is missing 1 out of 3 jumping passes is also far too much.

Nobody can up the tech any more than Malinin just did without breaking the rules, save for doing 4lz-3Lo, I suppose.

The differences in scores just doesn't reflect how much better Malinin stacked and performed the short program.

Period.

 

[lariko]

I don't understand your attitude. He got credited for it. He's subject to the same rules as any other skater. So really, what's the issue?

The tiny difference in scores with cleanly landed 4A and 4Lz+3T combo that was far, far more challenging composition than anyone else's. And, btw, all other elements also received level 4. So, the difference makes SP totally pointless and his win so...useless.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

Okay, about the scoring:
The 4A should be worth more. 15 points I think would be adequate.
At the same time PCS should be much more independent from the TES.
I think Ilia's score overall is fine, but only because it is wrong in 2 ways...

The PCS are all over the place and don't represent the actual skills and programs. Since the competitors are very close in this event correct judging of PCS becomes even more important. Yuma has the best skating skills of them all and the ss score should show that. Adam's presentation is too low in comparison to the others. Shoma's composition score seems too high to me.

The placements are alright, but the scores are not. I just hope it does not matter in the end. Judges need to do better, since they were very fast at this event - maybe take your time and look again. I'd rather wait a minute longer each time and get a more accurate score.

They are expected to deal with a lot of things in a highly time pressurised environment. I honestly think it's just too much for any person, no matter how well trained. They are expected to stick to a schedule (understandable with the amount of skaters there can be in some competitions). If the different panels for PCS and TES idea actually comes to fruition hopefully the scoring could end up being more accurate? Or maybe I'm being overly optimistic. I think something needs to change though. The current setup isn't fair.

 

[throw_triple_flip]

4A and 4lz (12.5 + 11.5) are higher base value than Uno's 4F and 4T (11+9.5) is 24 to 20.5, by 3.5 points, not a couple. Kagiyama has 4T and 4S, at 19.2, so by base value Malinin is 4.8 points ahead of him.

Malinin's GoEs should be higher than Uno's on at least 4F, and Kagiyama didn't bring his best jumping technique to China.

Nobody can up the tech any more than Malinin just did without breaking the rules, save for doing 4lz-3Lo, I suppose.

The differences in scores just doesn't reflect how much better Malinin performed the short program. Period.

Yes but there's a distinct possibility that the technical content influences the component scores of all the skaters. A lot of people (me included) aren't sure his high component scores are entirely justified.When you take the all round quality of the performances of the others, should he really be miles ahead? I don't think so.

While jumps are heavily wieighted in the scoring, they're still not the be all and end all.

 

[4everchan]

4A and 4lz (12.5 + 11.5) are higher base value than Uno's 4F and 4T (11+9.5) is 24 to 20.5, by 3.5 points, not a couple. Kagiyama has 4T and 4S, at 19.2, so by base value Malinin is 4.8 points ahead of him.

Aware of that. Look at the protocols. 50 BV for Ilia, 47 for Shoma and 45 for Yuma. That's exactly what I am talking about.

Malinin's GoEs should be higher than Uno's on at least 4F, and Kagiyama didn't bring his best jumping technique to China.

That's your take on it.

The differences in scores just doesn't reflect how much better Malinin performed the short program. Period.

There is more to figure skating than jumps.

 

[triplelutzzzzz]

I just woke up and looked at the protocols.... when I saw that a judge gave 9.75 and 9.5 to Ilia... and that in total he got 44... i was like MEH. Sorry but 40 is plenty. I will watch later because who knows, someone can improve a lot in a short period of time... but 9.75 in one of the PCS components sounds like quad axel bonus... at the same time, I said it in the pre-game chat... if he wants to win, he will need the 4axel... he tried not including it in so far this season with mixed results.

For those complaining he should be miles ahead... you need to understand how scoring works Ilia's Base Value with a quad axel is only a couple points more than Shoma (or Adam if he didn't pop) as they too have high valued quads in their short program. It's 5 points higher than guys who do the two simpler quads. Where it can make more of a difference is in the LP where it does give him the opportunity to only do quads and triple axels compared to the others who will include triple jumps (like a loop or a lutz or a flip)

Yeah. I think Ilia is pretty good technically, the 4A was effortless! But he lacks a bit in composition, which he knows (he's said it's something he wants to work on.)
The overscoring for his composition aren't new and I don't think they're a 4A bonus, they're a "hes a favorite to win" bonus.
While he's definitely improved from last year, especially in things like audience connection, but... 44? So, definitely agree: 38-40 score would've been plenty AND made more sense
Not gonna lie, scoring can be a bit weird sometimes and I don't always understand it but... come on lol.

 

[lariko]

That's your take on it.

Nope, not just mine. Listen to Mark comments, he notes the same thing. Kagiyama lands 4S well, then all his other 3 jumps are very average at best. Malinin flies on his.

 

[lariko]

Aware of that. Look at the protocols. 50 BV for Ilia, 47 for Shoma and 45 for Yuma. That's exactly what I am talking about.

Maybe you should look at protocols again too and see unexplicably low GoEs for Malinin. And that 9.75 you are going on and on about is the high outlier, and didn't count to his PCS score.

If you want to talk about something else, how about we talk about Kagiyama not doing anything with his arms between his first 2 jumping passes. Literally, nothing. Music's playing, Kagiyama stroking with his feet. That's the choreo we are here for, right?

 

[4everchan]

Nope, not just mine. Listen to Mark comments, he notes the same thing. Kagiyama lands 4S well, then all his other 3 jumps are very average at best.

Mark is Mark. Ted is Ted. They tell you what you want to hear Then, there is also Tara and Johnny The point here is that it is the judges who give the GOE, and they follow bullets. If a skater meets the requirements for a + 3 GOE, then they get +3... the kicker here is that a much better jump can also get only those bullets for a +3 and not a +4 or +5... I will give you this : Ilia has the nicest and most effortless jumps in the field. That, I agree with. However, the BV of the elements is fixed. Nothing to discuss much about... It is what it is. If anything, a good quad loop should receive higher marks than a quad lutz but the system doesn't recognize it this way either.

When it comes to PCS, that's where judges are given a lot more flexibility... and unfortunately, Ilia is not a 9.5-9.75 type of skater, at least for now. It's doing him a disservice to score him that high.

I hope this doesn't turn into a prolonged discussion where ilia's fans constantly find him underscored. It happened a while ago with some skaters' fans and it was very irritating (not saying this for you in particular but as a general statement).

 

[lariko]

Mark is Mark. Ted is Ted. They tell you what you want to hear Then, there are also Tara and Johnny The point here is that it is the judges who give the GOE, and they follow bullets. If a skater meets the requirements for a + 3 GOE, then they get +3... the kicker here is that a much better jump can also get only those bullets for a +3 and not a +4 or +5... I will give you this : Ilia has the nicest and most effortless jumps in the field. That, I agree with. However, the BV of the elements is fixed. Nothing to discuss much about... It is what it is. If anything, a good quad loop should receive higher marks than a quad lutz but the system doesn't recognize it this way either.

When it comes to PCS, that's where judges are given a lot more flexibility... and unfortunately, Ilia is not a 9.5-9.75 type of skater, at least for now. It's doing him a disservice to score him that high.

I hope this doesn't turn into a prolonged discussion where ilia's fans constantly find him underscored. It happened a while ago with some skaters' fans and it was very irritating (not saying this for you in particular but as a general statement).

Then why Ilya is getting 2s in GoEs for his jumps (let's assume -5 GoE was an honest mistake), when he literally should be getting GoEs reflective of the effortless execution of extra-high, fully rotated, gorgeous jumps. I mean, he should be scoring 4 and above, 3 on a bad day...

And Ilya did NOT receive 9.75 in PCS. That was one high outlier from an enthusiastic Judge 6. The rest put him in 8 to 9.5 range. He totally deserves it by carrying at speed and with choreo throughout the entire program.

The problems with the PCSs, they are prorated in such as way in the free skate that it eats away so much of the high tech advantage, because it is assumed the tech is HIGH for men...

 

[4everchan]

Then why Ilya is getting 2s in GoEs for his jumps, when he literally should be getting GoEs reflective of the effortless execution of extra-high, fully rotated jumps. I mean, he should be scoring 4 and above, 3 on a bad day...

Because the judges didn't see what you are seeing

And Ilya did NOT receive 9.75 in PCS. That was one high outlier from an enthusiastic Judge 6. The rest put him in 8 to 9.5 range. He totally deserves it by carrying at speed and with choreo throughout the entire program.

Ilia received a 9.75 in PCS. None of the judges know ahead of time that they will be the outlier and that their scores will be tossed. So when they give a mark, they give it. They probably actually also genuinely hope that their mark is not an outlier
Regarding Ilia's short, I am not so sure what you mean with choreo throughout. All I see is a few characteristics turns and arm movements to evoke the Spanish flair of Malaguena but not much else until the step sequence... By then, he's already done 3 jumping passes and two spins. So yeah, he comes alive but after the jumps. I don't blame him.. he is not the only one to do this, but as someone who has watched decades of Malaguena skating, i don't see anything fabulous in the choreo in the first two thirds of the program. Just my opinion of course.

 

[labgoat]

i truly need that. i got the worst news about him. he's suspended for two years

I am so sorry for your young man. It is a hard pill to swallow. I will be at the next day's events to keep you company and cheer on your other kids and hold your hand through the men's events.

 

[el henry]

I like Ilia. I remember seeing a tiny kid in a motorcycle jacket at a summer comp five (?) years ago thinking "that kid has something".

His jumps are beautiful, his spins are becoming downright gorgeous. His choreo is better, but that means better, not perfect. He has a lot to learn and a lot to add.

The distance between Shoma and Ilia on PCS should be even greater, IMO, and the distance between Kevin and Ilia in PCS: well, there should be distance.

then again, I might be the only skating fan who is not open mouthed in amazement over a 4A. That's OK, I'm used to it. .

 

[Andrina]

I like Ilia. I remember seeing a tiny kid in a motorcycle jacket at a summer comp five (?) years ago thinking "that kid has something".

His jumps are beautiful, his spins are becoming downright gorgeous. His choreo is better, but that means better, not perfect. He has a lot to learn and a lot to add.

The distance between Shoma and Ilia on PCS should be even greater, IMO, and the distance between Kevin and Ilia in PCS: well, there should be distance.

then again, I might be the only skating fan who is not open mouthed in amazement over a 4A. That's OK, I'm used to it. .

You're not alone.

I admire quality of Ilya's jumps but I cannot agree that one 4A should decide who is the winner. It's rare and difficult to perform? Well, then let's raise the base value of step sequences - there are only a few skaters who make them at a decent level.

It's laughable, simply laughable when Malinin makes one turn more on one single jump and gets 15 points more than Aymoz who excells in all the other components.

 

[Andrina]

Figure skating is about combining difficulty with beauty. About performing technical elements effortless while exhibiting great skating skills and choreography. And all that - during the whole program. Sorry, but I don't understand it when the winner is decided by something that takes less than 5 seconds at the very beginning of the skate.

 

[Isk]

I couldn't watch after all due to work. Oh my,what happened to Adam?!

Peaked too early in the season? He never did a full season of great competitions AFAR, and he was in a superb shape at the GP events.