Skaters on Team Japan

YesWay said:

The same poster has uploaded Rin Nitaya's free skate... a beautiful clean skate... if only her SP had been better she might have reached the top 6 or 7...

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Her PCS is too low here (TES 68.67, PCS 53.88). It was a clean, mature and elegant skate. She skated like a woman, not like a girl. She's been constantly undermarked in PCS both nationally and internationally this season, which reminds me of her choreographer, Akiko.

mikeko666 said:

Her PCS is too low here (TES 68.67, PCS 53.88). It was a clean, mature and elegant skate. She skated like a woman, not like a girl. She's been constantly undermarked in PCS both nationally and internationally this season, which reminds me of her choreographer, Akiko.

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Yes, she skates beautifully and elegantly, I think she is lovely to watch... but to be honest, her PCS does not surprise me and I'm not convinced she is underscored in that respect.

In my opinion, to earn more PCS, she needs more speed, deeper edges, pack in more transitions and more difficult choreography, use less two-footed skating, use a wider variety of upper body and vertical movement, add more expression/emotion (either projecting out, or drawing the audience in) etc etc. (The challenge is being able to do all that, and still skate beautifully and elegantly...! It's not impossible)

I do think the individual component scores do not vary enough, to properly reflect her strength in some areas and weakness in others... but I'd say that same thing for pretty much all skaters and all competitions - and Rin's total PCS vs other skaters seemed "about right" to me here.

YesWay said:

Yes, she skates beautifully and elegantly, I think she is lovely to watch... but to be honest, her PCS does not surprise me and I'm not convinced she is underscored in that respect.

In my opinion, to earn more PCS, she needs more speed, deeper edges, pack in more transitions and more difficult choreography, use less two-footed skating, use a wider variety of upper body and vertical movement, add more expression/emotion (either projecting out, or drawing the audience in) etc etc. (The challenge is being able to do all that, and still skate beautifully and elegantly...! It's not impossible)

I do think the individual component scores do not vary enough, to properly reflect her strength in some areas and weakness in others... but I'd say that same thing for pretty much all skaters and all competitions - and Rin's total PCS vs other skaters seemed "about right" to me here.

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Sorry to say this, but I believe PCS is more about reputations rather than what the book says. Some skaters pop jumps or fall many times and still are given high PE. Mao has little transitions into or out of jumps, and underrotates most of her jumps because she doesn't have enough speed into them. Did Miki have much transitions, or any other qualities you mentioned above?

mikeko666 said:

Sorry to say this, but I believe PCS is more about reputations rather than what the book says.

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And I believe PCS has a lot more to do with "what the book says", and a lot less to do with reputations than many like to claim.

I gave my reasons why I wasn't surprised at Rin's PCS: I see other skaters doing a better job of demonstrating the qualities listed in the PCS criteria... and the specific aspects I listed are all things that I have heard an ISU judge mention, when they were critiquing a skater's performance, and explaining why their PCS wasn't particularly high even though it was a very beautiful crowd-pleasing performance.

What reasons/evidence can you give, to support your point of view?

If you can show how Rin met the PCS criteria as well as, or better than, other skaters... but received less points... then we can talk about conspiracy theories like "reputation" to explain it...

mikeko666 said:

Mao has little transitions into or out of jumps, and underrotates most of her jumps because she doesn't have enough speed into them. Did Miki have much transitions?

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For PCS scoring, "Transitions" are pretty much all the steps and movements a skater does between elements (jumps, spins, step seq etc), apart from basic stroking and crossovers. Transitions are not just jump entries/exits.

And Mao has PLENTY of difficult transitions, with a good variety of balance-threatening and vertical movements, difficult choreography, full extension, etc... and she accelerates effortlessly while still doing all that (relies on fewer crossovers). Just take a look at her SP and FS this season.

She might not do difficult steps or transitions in/out of some of her jumps eg. 3A... but that just means she won't hit the GoE tick box for "difficult/unexpected" entry and might receive less points (technical score) for those jumps. Regardless, the difference in difficulty and quality between Mao's and Rin's Transitions and Choreography is like night and day.

I also doubt Mao's underrotations are caused by a lack of speed - what makes you think that?

As for Miki, I wouldn't say she was up to Mao's current standard, but she was no slouch either.

mikeko666 said:

Some skaters can pop jumps or fall many times and still are given high PE.

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Popped jumps and falls are primarily punished in the TES technical score, not PCS.

The PCS criteria documentation does not list penalties of any sort for mistakes. It only lists what qualities a skater needs to demonstrate for each component.

While mistakes might affect a skater's ability to demonstrate those qualities, and judges might choose to decide that mistakes reveal a lack of certain qualities... it's not always the case. It's quite possible for skaters to make mistakes and still be able to demonstrate enough quality skating to earn high PCS. And indeed we see this happen often...!

YesWay said:

What reasons/evidence can you give, to support your point of view?

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2012 NHK Trophy.

YesWay said:

And I I also doubt Mao's underrotations are caused by a lack of speed - what makes you think that?

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I've seen it live. I was surprised by how slow Mao was when I saw her live for the first time. She slows down before every take-off because she can't control speed. That is why her jumps cover little distances (she jumps up mostly vertically), and it is easy for her to cover up underrotations using her right ankle. It is not limited to Mao and can be said with anybody. It is rather easy to predict if the skater is going to underrotate (e.g. Mirai) unless she is as tiny as a junior skater like Satoko.

I agree with YesWay. Rin's performance looks clean, but still needs improvement in skating, even in interpretation of music. mikeko666, you are comparing her performance with Mao's, then in that case, I don't understand why you have reached your conclusion. It is apparent, even to my eyes, there is still a big difference in their skating skills if we see their stsq, how they use their edges. Even Sato sensei, regardless of who's coach he is now, said he was astonished by Mao's skating more and more.

mikeko666 said:

2012 NHK Trophy

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Giving the name of a competition, does not constitute a supporting argument.

What about the 2012 NHK Trophy? Explain please.

If you think there the PCS scoring was wrong there, please give examples with reference to the PCS criteria. And then show how those alleged scoring discrepencies apply to all competitions, if that's what you are suggesting.

mikeko666 said:

I've seen it live. I was surprised by how slow Mao was when I saw her live for the first time. She slows down before every take-off because she can't control speed. That is why her jumps cover little distances (she jumps up mostly vertically), and it is easy for her to cover up underrotations using her right ankle. It is not limited to Mao and can be said with anybody. It is rather easy to predict if the skater is going to underrotate (e.g. Mirai) unless she is as tiny as a junior skater like Satoko.

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I've seen Mao four times in person since 2013, and the only thing that surprises me... is that you think she is slow. Or that her jumps "cover little distances".

I could accept Mao is not the fastest at all times, or that she skates cautiously this season due to injuries. But she is not slow. Nor does she generally have small jumps. She uses variations in speed to good effect, from slow and elegant, to fast and frenetic. (And in doing so, she meets a PCS criterion).

She compared very well with other skaters in the competitions I saw her, often among the fastest - not to mention all the competitions I've seen on TV. The elegance of her skating, and the ease with which she accelerates and uses speed is deceptive, she is often moving faster than some can appreciate.

Frankly, at this point I suspect you are simply trolling. Or you look away when Mao is on the ice. Because your claims are becoming more and more ridiculous and outlandish - baseless speculations which you present as if they are fact - with no proper argument or evidence to support them. Your responses also suggest you know little/nothing of scoring under IJS.

SuzyQ said:

I agree with YesWay. Rin's performance looks clean, but still needs improvement in skating, even in interpretation of music. mikeko666, you are comparing her performance with Mao's, then in that case, I don't understand why you have reached your conclusion. It is apparent, even to my eyes, there is still a big difference in their skating skills if we see their stsq, how they use their edges. Even Sato sensei, regardless of who's coach he is now, said he was astonished by Mao's skating more and more.

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I am not directly comparing Rin's performance to Mao's. What I am saying is that PCS is more based on reputations than on what actually happens on the ice. Miki had few transitions when she won 2011 Worlds.

YesWay said:

What about the 2012 NHK Trophy? Explain please.

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"She won it as a twice World Champion. That's the only reason she won it." - British Eurosport

YesWay said:

Frankly, at this point I suspect you are simply trolling. Or you look away when Mao is on the ice.

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I see my posts are too inconvenient for you. If she had enough speed, she would have landed a decent 3-3T by now. The reality is, she can't even fully rotate 2A-3T.

mikeko666 said:

I am not directly comparing Rin's performance to Mao's. What I am saying is that PCS is more based on reputations than on what actually happens on the ice. Miki had few transitions when she won 2011 Worlds.

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I might agree with the comment "Reputations sometimes affect PCS", but do not agree with "PCS is more based on reputations than on what actually happens on the ice".

In any case, I never agree with your picking up Mao Asada to support your opinion. I believe my eyes, and many veteran skaters and specialists who highly evaluate Mao's skating and artistry, which seems to be different from yours. I do not have any more to say, so I will not comment further on this case.

mikeko666 said:

"She won it as a twice World Champion. That's the only reason she won it." - British Eurosport





I see my posts are too inconvenient for you. If she had enough speed, she would have landed a decent 3-3T by now. The reality is, she can't even fully rotate 2A-3T.

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Mao has less pre-rotation less than 180 degrees on her backend 3T and the tech crew does not count total rotation from take off to landing, even though she has as much or more rotation than those who don't get urs but have more than 180 degrees of pre-rotation. I am not talking about any one skater just stating a fact based on what I have seen from instant replays. Reputational urs are also given out in addition to not looking at the take off and landing and calculating 2 1/4 air rotations. Mao's backend triple toe at Nationals only had about 90 degrees of pre-rotation for example and she had over 2 1/4 air rotations, which is more air rotation than many backend triple toes jumps I have seen that didn't get urs and received high GOE. If you look at rink coverage and jump placement for example in the Sochi LP you will see that Mao has the most rink coverage in terms of jump placement which is an excellent indication of speed just as Mao covered every single bit of the length of the rink in her SP step sequence at Nationals. Mao often disappears deep into the corners and comes back out as in last year's programs as well. Mao was a fast runner when she was younger. A fast runner does not expend a lot of struggling effort to gain speed because it creates resistance. So too, Mao does not hunch or bend and pump a lot to gain speed but uses her smooth edges in a fast smooth glide. It is inconvenient for you to look at these facts or the fact that speed on jumps can be translated into distance, height, or rotational speed or that some jumpers take off at different angles on circle of rotation than others. You just enjoy trying to undermine Mao, who has been suffering from a left knee injury.

mikeko666 said:

I see my posts are too inconvenient for you. If she had enough speed, she would have landed a decent 3-3T by now. The reality is, she can't even fully rotate 2A-3T.

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I disagree about the speed part. Jump is more about height and rotational speed rather than the speed going into the jump. There are skaters who can jump fully rotated triple (even 3A) from a standstill you know. Mao actually has nice height on her jumps, from what I see she rotates comparably a bit slower to other skaters, thus her UR tendency, among other reasons. I also disagree about Mao's PCS, if anything I feel that she is a bit underscored considering her SS is still superior, not even mentioning things like IN, PE, CO etc here.

mikeko666 said:

"She won it as a twice World Champion. That's the only reason she won it." - British Eurosport

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And this is supposed to prove what?

A British Eurosport commentator once made a comment, and you cling to that one comment because you think it proves your conspiracy theory?

And was it Simon Reed? Because he is no expert when it comes to scoring, especially PCS.

mikeko666 said:

I see my posts are too inconvenient for you.

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No, MY comments are too inconvenient for YOU:

-You are unable to refute the comments I made regarding Rin's PCS.

-Instead, you switch to Mao-bashing, which I also refuted, and again - you are unable to counter.

-Then you present one comment made by one TV commentator, at one competition - as if this is proof that "reputation scoring" is prevalent at every competition. Ridiculous.

-You are unable to back up your claims of under/overscoring or reputation scoring, by reference to competition protocols, PCS criteria, video comparison of skaters' performances etc. Hence I assume you actually know very little/nothing about scoring.

How inconvenient for you.

mikeko666 said:

If she had enough speed, she would have landed a decent 3-3T by now. The reality is, she can't even fully rotate 2A-3T.

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Laughable. You clearly have no knowledge of simple, basic physics.

More Mao-bashing to try and distract us from your inability to make a proper argument in support of your claim that Rin was underscored in PCS?

mikeko666 said:

I am not directly comparing Rin's performance to Mao's. What I am saying is that PCS is more based on reputations than on what actually happens on the ice. Miki had few transitions when she won 2011 Worlds.

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SuzyQ said:

I might agree with the comment "Reputations sometimes affect PCS", but do not agree with "PCS is more based on reputations than on what actually happens on the ice".

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I agree with SuzyQ's response.

Furthermore, you have provided no actual evidence for your claim that "PCS is more based on reputations than on what actually happens on the ice" as a matter of routine, or that it happens frequently, or even that it happens at all.

Miki had few transitions when she won 2011 Worlds? What is that supposed to prove? You present no evaluation of the quality of the transitions she did do, vs protocols... "Transitions" is just one of five PCS components... and you present no evidence or argument that other skaters performed better than Miki at that competition, such that Miki's win was undeserved.

mikeko666 said:

I am not directly comparing Rin's performance to Mao's. What I am saying is that PCS is more based on reputations than on what actually happens on the ice. Miki had few transitions when she won 2011 Worlds.

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If so, it's better we should ban the PCS and throw the book into fire as I always feel that Mao is punished enough in the TES already.

Looks like Nationals has fired some of the guys up! (I'm obviously obsessed with the Japanese Men but anyway...)

During the Japan Intercollegiate Championships (is there a more appropriate translated title for this competition?) Men's A Class SPs:

Ryuju apparently jumped a relatively successful a 4T2T! :hap57: He scored 81.38 and is currently in 1st place.
https://twitter.com/sk8_yzstsmax/status/817599469793341441
https://twitter.com/halhal0216/status/817599699032997889
https://twitter.com/soleil_yk22/status/817599388964962305

Hiroaki Sato with a 4T attempt!
https://twitter.com/halhal0216/status/817581942094766080
https://twitter.com/soleil_yk22/status/817581938722512896

Naoki Oda is also challenging the 4T!
https://twitter.com/halhal0216/status/817612823215755264
https://twitter.com/sk8_yzstsmax/status/817612940480155649
He didn't manage to fully rotate or stand up on the quad jump during his SP, but it seems he may have landed a 4T2T during the 6 minute warm up?!:shocked:
https://twitter.com/Mrs___piggy/status/817610399960809474
Here's a video of his quad attempt that he posted to twitter on January 1.
https://twitter.com/Naokisk897/status/815486988409180160

Also, (though he's not entered in this competition) Taichi Honda's 3A!
https://twitter.com/taichisk8/status/815778966690594816

Keep it up guys! ...but please try not to injure yourselves. Already too many broken men this season~:sad46:

tsuyoboogie said:

Looks like Nationals has fired some of the guys up! (I'm obviously obsessed with the Japanese Men but anyway...)

During the Japan Intercollegiate Championships (is there a more appropriate translated title for this competition?) Men's A Class SPs:

Ryuju apparently jumped a relatively successful a 4T2T! :hap57: He scored 81.38 and is currently in 1st place.
https://twitter.com/sk8_yzstsmax/status/817599469793341441
https://twitter.com/halhal0216/status/817599699032997889
https://twitter.com/soleil_yk22/status/817599388964962305

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:dance: Good for him!!! Hope there's a video of it out there.

Now BS Fuji is broadcasting the Medalists on Ice 2016.

Koshiro :gclap:

2016 MOI

Koshiro Shimada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDKC4L-HQuU&list=PL5BYWZQVK-8HLzdCcRAS0pbztfIesDH3f&index=6

Shun Sato
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2hWFyvXd9c&list=PL5BYWZQVK-8HLzdCcRAS0pbztfIesDH3f&index=2

Thank you for the uploader

Happy birthday to Sota!!! Congrats on turning 17!! Even if he is out for the whole season due to his injury, I still miss him lots and can't wait to see him skate again next season!