The performances of Wagner and Gold

skateluvr said:

No wish to restart the Cold War but the North American style if you will produces skaters who have better choreo, skating skills and costumes that won't be laughed at years from now.


I don't agree Mao is a superior artist or athlete to Grace or Ashley. She is very very inconsistent in her jumps and in performance.

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I think a clean Gracie Gold should beat a clean Ashley Wagner based on what I view as her superior athleticism (better height and more power in jumps) and skating skills. I also admit I like Gracie Gold's style a little better. I will say though that I have been impressed with Ashley's respectful comments and kindness towards Mao and I can only assume that Gracie has been kind to Mao as well otherwise she wouldn't have been invited to The Ice. I hope they have good seasons.

But, I really just dropped into this thread and couldn't resist chiming in when I saw the dismissive attitude towards Mao's achievements and the alleged "superiority" of the North American style. To avoid controversy, I won't talk about what I think is Mao's history of underscoring which I have come across in so many threads, youtube videos, and heard from commentators, but even without this consider that Mao has shown consistency and an exceptional combination of elements and a very high level of popularity among skating fans. Mao:

1. has won her last 6 Grand Prix events in a row.
2. was the first woman to score over 200 points in succession under the COP scoring system.
3. was the first and only Asian woman to win the World championships 3 times, and if the value of the triple axel had been the same in 2007 as it is today, she would have won 4 titles.
4. has the current SP record
5. won the Grand Prix Final and Worlds in her last season
6. is the only lady in history to have combined the qualities of a flexible ballerina skater like the one handed Biellmann spin, cross grab Biellmann spiral combined with qualities of a power skater like the top notch skating skills, the most consistent triple axel ever, the unusual triple flip and loop combo, and the best overall step sequences.
7. To testify to her popular appeal beyond placements, Mao is the only figure skater other than Yuna Kim with a video of over 2,000,000 views (her Sochi LP on a small screen skating from the 3rd group with little publicity after another video of the performance with over 1,000,000 views had been deleted).

But, I think I understand where the source of your attitude towards Mao comes from. Mao does not skate in the Western or North American style as you referred to. She definitely has an artistic expression that is more eastern mixed with a Russian influence, but to me she seems to incorporate all styles with American jazz as in "I Got Rhythm" mixed in. I personally prefer her predominately eastern oriented style much more which I regard as being more subtle, focused on slow flowing extensions in the body movement which are so impressive in her spirals for example. A zen like zone and meditative feel punctuated with flashes of passion and a slow build up to climatic release as in her Sochi LP.

I don't like the current North American style as much, though Kristi Yamaguchi is one of my favorite skaters who I think of as as East meets West kind of skater, but I don't feel I have the right to pass judgement on that style as you have done on the non-North American style. I feel the use of the word I believe or feel is less confrontational and more accepting of diverse opinions. But, it is erroneous to say the western style teaches better skating skills, since as Newbiespectator said Mao has the best in terms of edges and speed of any current skater, not to mention one legged skating, transitions and minimal crossovers to build speed. Also, what would you say of Midori Ito? It would be easy to argue that no lady has ever had skating skills as great as her and again she is from Japan and does not have a North American style.

By the way, I am an American.

^ Totally.

Although Mao is definitely not the only woman to do a one-handed Biellmann.
Sotnikova at 1:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fczl8W9LkyY
Mira Leung at 2:03 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jz6olr2-v0
This unknown girl who actually does it with the opposite hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrHq_1WkrhM

Or the only one to do a cross-grab spiral:
Mirai at 2008 Skate America (see around 2 mins): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGYqyf55rM
Arakawa: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/52/50/00/52500064385573faf4e21c9d07746287.jpg
Kim: http://griffin.mixrmedia.com/user_p...ef26e1bb9b426f7135dc2785fb0703-display750.jpg

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

^ Totally.

Although Mao is definitely not the only woman to do a one-handed Biellmann.
Sotnikova at 1:45 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fczl8W9LkyY
Mira Leung at 2:03 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jz6olr2-v0
This unknown girl who actually does it with the opposite hand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrHq_1WkrhM

Or the only one to do a cross-grab spiral:
Mirai at 2008 Skate America (see around 2 mins): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sGYqyf55rM
Arakawa: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/52/50/00/52500064385573faf4e21c9d07746287.jpg
Kim: http://griffin.mixrmedia.com/user_p...ef26e1bb9b426f7135dc2785fb0703-display750.jpg

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I thought about what you wrote here, but didn't get a chance to clarify after I posted because I got busy. I meant Mao was the only woman to combine a triple axel and triple flip and loop (usually the elements of power skaters like Midori Ito or Miki Ando) with so many elements associated with the flexibility of a ballerina skater):

the one handed Beillmann spin, which I think Mao did the best of anyone in her Bells of Moscow with the free hand held in a dramatic pose in front of her chest with a stunning presentation, position and expression.

http://www.onstn.com/news/photo/first/201306/img_11226_1.jpg


the cross grab Biellman spiral especially with the left hand holding the right leg over the head and the right arm extended straight over the head like this. I think Mao has the best position as in this picture, though I think Shizuka and Mirai have really nice positions as well.

http://www.olympic.org/Assets/Media...1/FIGURE SKATING/06-W_Mao_Asada_JPN_S-960.jpg

and leaning so far back in the fan spiral while still lifting the legs so high without the aid or using her arms:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/a4fd60c85ccc6457b3d30eb812f76949/tumblr_ndbh2tI78U1ssuiapo2_500.jpg

not to mention Mao's low position in the extended sit spin with her hands holding the end of her skate boot and skate instead of the ankle.

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4009/4469546992_2f5a8041f0.jpg

and the outstanding arabesque position.

https://rinksidecafe.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/mao-asada-10-olympics-lp.jpg

I love Mao always have preferred her in most ways to Yuna even. But the triple axel does not make the greatest skater nor the best athlete. Mao has been in the top tier for many more years than Gracie. Mao was amazing at 16. I speak to current Mao and current Grace and Ashley. Ashley is incredible to try at her age these jump combos. I think her performance and style are different but the three are the most beautiful to watch because of their maturity. Ashley does a performance every time out.

Ashley was underscored in Sochi. Mao is very held up in Japan. They love her. It was justified but a miracle when Akiko a beautiful skater won over Mao. Mao is held up on the world stage. Beloved and admired for her dogged trying to land triple axels. I just feel the American duo have to be perfect to get their due. Nowadays Russian and Japanese Feds are more powerful and their skaters get money and support. Our two dynamos are on their own.

Mao has done amazing things. I think it will be great to see her perform. I hope she takes a page from Caros books because while I'd love to see her beat the teenagers technically I doubt she can. Grace without the nerves should be unbeatable. I think it's impressive Liza can land triple axels and she has great jump technique but that's not what skating should be most about. I can tolerate her programs, she is spunky and I don't dislike her style but she has yet to do one program that moved me or that I want to re watch all season long. Julia has touched the world with her Shindler's List. She did seem the child but it was pretty amazing on many levels.

Who cares there was no triple axel.

Gracie is stunning and has it all except she lost her confidence. I have never seen a skater Ashley's age attempt two triple triples while still performing the hell out of her program. She anted up in a big way. Had Kwan done so she would have gold but she did not.

Caro is a goddess but she was doing the hard stuff at 16. To deliver the performance of great beauty she watered down the tech. Some were angry but she made Lori Nichols cry every time she did her Sp last year. This woman has been in.the rink for years with every top skater. Only Carolina and maybe Julia moved people so much.

I will be honest. Adelina had the skate of her young life and I watched it a few times. But only to see why some felt she deserved that gold. Someday she will have better style I hope. Better music, better choreo and please better costumes. 5 years from now I may think she is awesome but now I don't.

I only recently saw Yuna's last skate at her ice show in 2014. No big 3x3 but it was full of emotion. I always thought she would do shows and develop even more artistically. Very disappointed she quit completely. But she has so many pies I guess.

It was Nessun Dorma and it was as beautiful and heartfelt as any skate you could want because it was her last. Her arms are so lovely. Well it does take years to perform maturely for most women. I like Satoko but the world podium last year just left me generally cold. Again for me art over sport.

skateluvr said:

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Ashley was underscored in Sochi. Mao is very held up in Japan.

Only Carolina and maybe Julia moved people so much.

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Please clarify what you mean here. Do you mean that Mao is respected and honored in Japan? The juxtaposition of underscored and held up could suggest another meaning.

As far as being moved, I have never read as many posts on threads on skating forums, youtube and twitter about people being moved as I have about Mao's Sochi LP so I disagree with the assessment that, "Only Carolina and maybe Julia moved people so much," with the inclusion of Ashley I guess in moving people as much or more, because Mao was the most tweeted athlete at Sochi and had more video views for her Sochi LP. Maybe you weren't, but many others, including me, were moved by Mao the most.

And the triple axel was only part of it ( a symbol of perseverance and adherence to an ideal), so was the triple flip and loop, the melancholic and fighting samurai expressions, the crescendo in speed in unison with the music, the 8 triples, the elegance, the flexibility and wave like flow through transitions and spins, the emotionally captivating climatic step sequence, the expansive rink coverage that brought the whole audience into the performance, the picturesque fan spiral and arabesque, then the tears of redemption. They were all part of the story.

Skateluvr, you make some good points, although I'm still a bit confused as to where you stand in the whole Gracie vs Ashley rivalry, since you've brought in so many other skaters.

I'll say this though: Ashley is, in my opinion, more of the "complete package" than Gracie, in my opinion. Yes, she isn't as consistent as Liza or Mao, but her skating makes me feel something. She feels the music, and truly performs, and when she has a clean skate, she's just beautiful to watch. Gracie, though, never has connected to a program. And she's just as consistent as Ashley. So Ashley is, in my opinion, better than Gracie, though I love both girls and love to watch them skate!

If Ashley is praised for trying hard combinations at her age I don't get why the same isn't applied to Mao. Ashley just barely gets the rotations on her 3-3s and her 3Lo-1Lo-3S has yet to be recognized internationally while Mao is someone who also just barely gets the rotation on the 3A but the 3A is so much harder for a lady than a 3-3. Mao is about the same age as Ashley (older by a few months) and at Sochi, she attempted a 3A, a 3F-3Lo (that should have been ratified) and a 2A-3T in the 2nd half all in one program. And she performed the heck out of that program in Sochi. That's a harder jump layout than what Ashley is attempting yet Ashley is incredible but Mao is held up? Not to mention Mao has superior skating skills, footwork and spins while Ashley has to compensate for her shallower edges with way more crossovers and doesn't consistently get her spins levels in the LP.

Gracie and Ashley have not even a world medal, let alone a world gold medal, to say Mao was good but not anymore is ridiculous if you are comparing her with Ashley and Gracie because Mao was world champion last year, you know, her 3 world gold medal. I am not saying Ashley and Gracie are not good, they are great and very talented but they are not showing nothing spectacular or getting results yet, especially Gracie, and no, Gracie has not all the package, her artistry is very deficient. I have more hope for Ashley than Gracie, but I wish Gracie can get over her nerves someday.

Ashley strikes me as a hard worker and super confident skater, but I don't she is a "complete package". Yes she has a mature body and style because she is indeed one of the oldest lady skater out there now. Her spins are not on the same level as Russian girls or Gracie. Her choice of music falls in the same category time after time--can you imagine her doing a classical piece? She appears to oversell her program with over-dramatic music with lots of acting. Gracie on the other hand, is very malleable. She has all the technical goods and time is on her side.

hippomoomin said:

Ashley strikes me as a hard worker and super confident skater, but I don't she is a "complete package". Yes she has a mature body and style because she is indeed one of the oldest lady skater out there now. Her spins are not on the same level as Russian girls or Gracie. Her choice of music falls in the same category time after time--can you imagine her doing a classical piece? She appears to oversell her program with over-dramatic music with lots of acting. Gracie on the other hand, is very malleable. She has all the technical goods and time is on her side.

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I think that's a good way to phrase it. Ashley is someone I want to see do well but she seems to always be at war with something. Maybe even something that isn't ever going to be rewarded on the scoresheets. I honestly find her more intimidating than engaging at times and honestly....it feels like she is challenging the judges instead of performing for them.

Right now I'm just pulling for Mariah to keep moving in the right direction while Gracie, Ashley, and Polina take turns being the other ones I pull for in a constantly changing order of favorites.

hippomoomin said:

Ashley strikes me as a hard worker and super confident skater, but I don't she is a "complete package". Yes she has a mature body and style because she is indeed one of the oldest lady skater out there now. Her spins are not on the same level as Russian girls or Gracie. Her choice of music falls in the same category time after time--can you imagine her doing a classical piece? She appears to oversell her program with over-dramatic music with lots of acting. Gracie on the other hand, is very malleable. She has all the technical goods and time is on her side.

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I agree that Ashley's not exactly the complete package (her spins are not that great and her jumps and skating skills need some work) but I think she has good presentation in the sense that she sells her programs and that's something Gracie needs to start doing. I adore Gracie (her jumps and spins are to die for tbh) but she's never moved me, unlike Ashley. I can watch Gracie skate and be like yes she has great elements but I don't feel that she has a good connection to her music at all, which is pretty sad because she's way better than Ashley in terms of technique, she just needs to step it up presentation-wise.

I think both ladies are talented and could win a world or Olympic title or medal - if they are on. Both have issues with nerves/jump consistency (mind you most do as the jumps are getting so hard especially with the other requirements an desire to get higher GOE's and levels). They both have that American finish/polish. while Gracie is more traditional princess, arguably Ashley is more the tough fierceness remniscient of debi Thomas or even Nicole Bobek - but they both have that American made machine look, confidence and maybe because the US has down the packaging - there are different types of miss Americas but whether in skating they are more classical or fierce and maybe sexual it still has that American Finish and both girls / women have that look regardless of more classic/balletic versus modern and fierce - it still is "all American". It would Appear right now Ashley maybe the better competitor but these ladies keep leap frogging one another. remember it is barely 1.5 years ago since Ashley's melt down at nationals that almost cost her an Olympic berth. Whether these ladies pull it together at worlds or Olympics is yet to be seen. But considering the huge inconsistency and youthfulness (translation puberty) of the Russian ladies and still immaturity of the Japanese other than Mao who really hasn't been that consistent herself - USA or gracie and Ashley have real medal shots.

skateluvr said:

Ashley was underscored in Sochi. Mao is very held up in Japan... Mao is held up on the world stage... I just feel the American duo have to be perfect to get their due. Nowadays Russian and Japanese Feds are more powerful and their skaters get money and support. Our two dynamos are on their own.

Who cares there was no triple axel.

Gracie is stunning and has it all except she lost her confidence.

Only Carolina and maybe Julia moved people so much.

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Sorry, but most of your post just sounds like national bias taken up to eleven. Oh the poor american girls, why is the world stage so mean to them? Gracie is overscored, not underscored. You can love her all you want, that doesn't change the fact that she has little connection to her music so far, and that's not reflected in her scores at all. Gracie does not have it all (very few skaters do though). And Ashley had events where she received relatively low scores, but also times when she was held up (Skate Canada last season was a good example for a lot of people).

And no, a 3A is not the most important thing about it all or the main deciding factor. It's not needed to be one of the best athletes - but it sure as hell is a factor as to why someone can be called one of the greatest athletes if they happened to land that jump an impressive amount of times. It's like you don't even try to get the point the 3A was brought up for - you claimed Mao was no better athlete than Gracie/Ashley. But that's not something depending on your opinion, but a lot on actual facts. So people wrote those facts done for you. Gracie/Ashley wouldn't have to do 3As to get more recognition as athletes, but to be considered on par with Mao, they'd have to have something special in that regard. They don't. Mao does. Not a point of opinion.

For the comment on which skaters moved people... gotoschool already said it beautifully. You can prefer Ashley/Gracie artistically to Mao, but don't pretend you can speak for what moved most people or not.

A clean skate from Gracie will beat a clean skate from Ashley anyday. Yes Gracie has the tech skills on her side but lacks maturity while Ashley is the opposite. Unfortunately for Ashley the likelihood of Gracie improving her weakness(maturity) is far greater than her upping her tech values to compete with the youngsters and Mao. It feels like Ashley has already reached her maximum potential while Gracie has so much more to offer. There is no question these two can medal on a world level but consistency is just not on their side. Im not sure how you practice/prepare mental toughness/consistency yourself but certainly its not impossible like what Liza T did. I think between the two Gracie is more valuable just because she has the tech value to compete with the russians and mao

Kittosuni said:

Im not sure how you practice/prepare mental toughness/consistency yourself but certainly its not impossible like what Liza T did.

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Nothing against your overall point. But Liza has always been a better competitor than Ashley/Gracie. She struggled 2 seasons due to different problems, but she was also the girl that came out winning both her GP events in her senior debut. One of the seasons she struggled overall she still made the GPF, the other she was 4th at 2 GP events - still not much worse than Gracie the same sear in a 'regular' season for her. Liza stepped it up another notch last year, but she was always a good competitor to begin with, IMO.

I like both but whereas Ashley is a talented skater with a grit determination which I admire, Gracie has that unmistakable star quality which makes judges to overscore her time after time. To join BES commentators 'the day Gracie gets it all together I want to be there' but they also said it is becoming a question of IF rather than WHEN.
I absolutely love Gracie's attention to detail- everything, from a costume, a hairdo, make-up to a colour of nail polish nothing left to chance, she is a Lady and a pleasure to watch. The fact that she also is so athletic just takes my breath away. Hope she gets her confidence back & a good dramatic program and will collect next season.

I loved her All that jazz program. I would like to see use this type of music for a program

I think Ashley and Grace are friendly rivals pushing each other. I truly just think the statement that Gracie lack artistry is unfounded. She has it all, beautiful movements elegant a jumper. She should be winning big championships.minor errors. Wagner has shown she is world class on the. Gp circuit. Her performance was lovely and to get to the final and place 3rd is amazing with the judges preference for Radionova, the Russians in general and now Satoko is being prematurely rewarded because of politics. Can anyone say other than ladies skating belongs tomJapan second and Russia first.

We only need revisit Sochi. Find a top former skater in world that agreed with that result. Adeline may convince me she is a full package if she develops in a few years time. Politics is worse than ever in figure skating because corruption everywhere in the world is tolerated as never before in every sphere of life. And it does take some longevity and wisdom to see this. Young people are perhaps overly optimistic by nature. Skating hasn't gotten clearer or fairer. Not at all. I never equate results with fairness or the best skater.

Samantha Cesario never received her due. Her Carmen was the best I have seen. And she retired. There is no place for people who are fabulous but get out jumped by tiny teens. Well it is what it is and we will see who beside a mere handful of women will save ladies skating from ugly spins, crazy footwork sequences and the chase for fully rotated jumps. That doesn't make an artist. I'm glad Mao will be back. I wish Caro And Akiko were still around. One could count on seeing some truly lovely programs.

hippomoomin said:

Ashley strikes me as a hard worker and super confident skater, but I don't she is a "complete package". Yes she has a mature body and style because she is indeed one of the oldest lady skater out there now. Her spins are not on the same level as Russian girls or Gracie. Her choice of music falls in the same category time after time--can you imagine her doing a classical piece? She appears to oversell her program with over-dramatic music with lots of acting. Gracie on the other hand, is very malleable. She has all the technical goods and time is on her side.

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I didn't say that Ashley was a complete package, just that she is closer to it than Gracie, in my opinion. Gracie's performances are bland though she is very good technically when she manages to land her jumps. Her spins are better than Ashley's, but where you say Ashley overacts, Gracie doesn't act at all, and her choreography is boring and not on par with her music at all, which may be more her choreographer's fault than her own.

I am, however, a bit confused by what you mean when you say that Ashley skates to the same type of music and doesn't do classical pieces. Yes, all of her music is dramatic, but Prokofiev's Romeo and Juliet is as different from Moulin Rouge as you can get, and Samson and Delilah is considered classical music. So yes, all of her music is dramatic, but it's not by any means the same. And I'd rather have her skate to the same type of music than to music she doesn't connect to, which seems to be the case with Gracie.

Until Gracie proves me wrong with some of these things, I'll think Ashley is better overall and like her more. Gracie does have better technical elements but there's something about Ashley that draws me to her.

dress said:

I loved her All that jazz program. I would like to see use this type of music for a program

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All That Jazz was amazing! Maybe she'd turn it into a SP?