Russian Hegemony in Ladies Ice Skating

jenaj said:

Except that the US has had an abundance of successful skaters in the past under the same system.

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Because it was really popular back then, which it is not anymore. And training has gotten more expensive, not less. And now that it's NOT popular, skaters can't even make money from professional skating careers after they "retire". They have to go skate in shows in Japan to make some money. Disney on Ice is the only thing that's left.

Even if skating suddenly became popular in the USA again, we still wouldn't beat the Russians. That incredibly competitive environment of the best skaters training with each other under one roof, being completely replaceable, being all trained the same way and handpicked for the proper body type, we don't have a system like that. We are not going to be able to produce that many talented girls in a super-loose system. That pressure cooker system is why they have such a deep field of skaters to draw from.

JazzUp said:

I was not offended at all, I was just laughing at your ridiculous wording.

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Ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps some are laughing at your response?

el henry said:

Ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps some are laughing at your response?

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Couldn't care less.

Arwen17 said:

Because it was really popular back then, which it is not anymore. And training has gotten more expensive, not less. And now that it's NOT popular, skaters can't even make money from professional skating careers after they "retire". They have to go skate in shows in Japan to make some money. Disney on Ice is the only thing that's left.

Even if skating suddenly became popular in the USA again, we still wouldn't beat the Russians. That incredibly competitive environment of the best skaters training with each other under one roof, being completely replaceable, being all trained the same way and handpicked for the proper body type, we don't have a system like that. We are not going to be able to produce that many talented girls in a super-loose system. That pressure cooker system is why they have such a deep field of skaters to draw from.

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I don’t think the cost has exceeded the rate of inflation. And skaters now don’t have to wait to make money by going “pro,” like they used to. It only takes one for the US ladies to succeed. And they may have the one in Alysa Liu.

JazzUp said:

Couldn't care less.

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A most excellent response to any poster who says that they’re laughing at someone else’s post, or the wording in someone’s post:agree:

jenaj said:

I don’t think the cost has exceeded the rate of inflation. And skaters now don’t have to wait to make money by going “pro,” like they used to. It only takes one for the US ladies to succeed. And they may have the one in Alysa Liu.

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The amount of money that skaters in the US make now, even without going pro, is unfortunately in no way comparable to the heyday of “amateur” sports, even accounting for inflation.

And any athlete anywhere who recives state funding is at an advantage, funding wise, compared to American athletes who get no state funding. No matter their level, no matter their success, no matter the popularity of the sport.

el henry said:

A most excellent response to any poster who says that they’re laughing at someone else’s post, or the wording in someone’s post:agree:

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Yes, it is, because I believe we are allowed to laugh at anything we find funny, and don't object at others laughing at whatever I post.

el henry said:

Ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps some are laughing at your response?

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Yeah, I sure as heck was. JazzUp had me cracking up talking about the ridiculousness of someone’s words when his response was in itself ridiculous because he or she was actually the only one to misconstrue what was obvious. Funny stuff!

jenaj said:

Except that the US has had an abundance of successful skaters in the past under the same system.

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Not exactly, economics have shifted here. What was feasible for a middle class family to do in terms of paying for the sport is different then than it is now. There has been inflation of basic necessities and not much change in salary in the US which has caused a shift where the middle class can no longer afford things that were affordable in the past. Good luck paying for your kids competitive career without a 200k income.

jenaj said:

I don’t think the cost has exceeded the rate of inflation. And skaters now don’t have to wait to make money by going “pro,” like they used to. It only takes one for the US ladies to succeed. And they may have the one in Alysa Liu.

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Let's say the cost hasn't changed, but the housing market has changed. Most people in my generation will never be able to afford to own a home and that was a normal thing for people in my parents and grandparents generation to do. Things in the US have changed and we don't have money to spend on niche sports that aren't popular. Ice rinks are also few and far between in comparison to something like gyms. I live in the large city in the US, there are 3 ice rinks to service the entire 3M population. I think one of them might have closed down recently. In comparison there's a gym training gymnastics in nearly ever zip code. Gymnastics is much more popular in the US than figure skating, and there's a college circuit + opportunity for college scholarships so even if one doesn't go elite they have future options. There isn't much opportunity for the future if you're a low level figure skater.

Arwen17 said:

I also wonder if China might get their act together some day. They have more potential to closely model the Russian system since they too are state-run. I'm kinda surprised they aren't already better than they are.

I hope to see skating grow in India and other small countries. I kinda wish Russia's deep field could skate for other countries like India, but I'm not sure how much that would encourage skating growth in minority countries. It's probably more exciting to see an actual Indian girl represent your country internationally than have some Russian foreigner do it, who's never even set foot in India.

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China and India still have like next to no rinks and no money compared to even the US. Chinese skaters do get some state funding after advancing to a certain level, sure, but getting to that level is still mostly out of pocket, and there are probably only a handful of good rinks and good coaches in all of China (and even then, most of them do pairs). I'm from the Northeast, where winters are cold enough to permit outdoors skating and most of China's skaters have hailed from, and there still isn't a good rink in my city. People just don't know enough about figure skating and the people who do view it as a niche sport for rich, already-connected, or exceptionally talented kids.

Interesting that people think everything was so much better before. Where I grew up, there were no rinks. Figure skating lessons were on no one’s mind. I didn’t buy property (a condo) until I was in my thirties. Interest rates were much higher. My first mortgage had a 7% rate. And I thought it was a good deal! Anyway, the real point was that, in the US, there is no government subsidy for skaters and other Olympic athletes and it didn’t prevent past successes. I don’t think it was any easier for skaters who did not have family money like Janet Lynn and Michelle Kwan. The US doesn’t need a “stable” of top skaters to regain dominance. It only needs a few. The US is currently among the most successful in men’s skating with only one top skater! Only a few can make it to the top so the lack of interest among many is not necessarily the reason why the US ladies in recent years have not won many World or (any) Olympic medals.

Antoine said:

For many years now, Russia and in particular the Tutberidze team has dominated the women's circuit. In your opinion how long will such domination exist ? What are the limits ? Soon all 4 jumps will be acquired except 4 Axel. What new technical advances can come about ?

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I sure hope not long. It’s awfully boring. And I hope no more technical advances come about or at least not for a long time. I’d like to see beautiful spins, spirals, step sequences, musical interpretation...I really don’t care if a jump goes around 3, 4 or 5 times.

RobinA said:

This too shall pass. Yes, it's a cycle. It will either turn naturally or the scoring will be tweaked when too many powers that be get tired of prepubescent girls (from whatever country) ice jumping. Trends always look inevitable and unstoppable when they are developing, but next thing you know something else is trending :handw: and what seemed unstoppable is old news.

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Agree 1000%

Antoine said:

For many years now, Russia and in particular the Tutberidze team has dominated the women's circuit. In your opinion how long will such domination exist ?

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As long as Putin is in power? Afterwards, it might be like in the 90s - less government sponsorship, less money, but cleaner sports.

Cycles as others have said before me. It is always a cycle in this sport.

JazzUp said:

Russia does not "throw money at skaters", that's a popular misconception. The state does support fs (like any other popular sport) at the junior and senior levels, but parents (and later, athletes themselves, if they are successful) bear the brunt of expenses still.

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But this is the difference, isn't it? Athletes bear the brunt of expenses if they are successful. But by the time they are successful, they will have the means to do so. The difference is before the success. Yes, the fed doesn't cover everything in Russia, but they cover the basics that allow a skater to begin their career and build a foundation that can lead to success. They may not be able to afford the best costumes, best choreographers, best music edits, etc., but they can still learn to skate, have a coach, have some kind of choreography and generally learn everything without putting a financial burden on their families.

Alina Zagitova is a good example of that; I believe in her first JGP season she could not afford a dress for her free program. With no state funding, it's safe to assume that if a skater cannot afford a dress, they likely wouldn't be able to support the actual skating portion of the sport which costs much more than a dress. Similarly, Elena Radionova said that before she had sponsors, she and her coaches had to cut the music themselves because they could not afford an editor. However, she was still able to have a coach and ice time that allowed her to establish a career.

I think a big part of this huge influx of talent in Russia is due to the sport being state funded. Just look at the ladies at Russian nationals; how many of them are upper middle class/would be able to finance the sport without the state? And then junior nationals? Or even just in Eteri's group - I can only think of Anna but I don't know the financial backgrounds of all her skaters.

The other contributing factor is the recent popularity due to the success of past and current ladies. This probably inspires young girls to start taking up figure skating; they see how many girls are bringing home medals and they want this too. And because they all can due to funding, the talent pool is huge. This is why we not only see better girls each year, but also more of them. Recently, there was Leonova, then Tuktamysheva. Then both Sotnikova and Lipnitskaya. Then there was all of Radionova, Pogorilaya, and Sotskova. And then now we have Medvedeva, Zagitova, and the 3A all at once. And these are only the girls who have success in seniors; there are so many more in juniors. How many girls at nationals have 3-3 combos vs. 10 years ago?

I do believe that it's a cycle just like popularity in any sport. The field will become too oversaturated -it already is- and younger girls and their parents will understand that there are only 3 spots available for major international competition and their odds are 1 in a million. They will see extremely talented girls with all their triples and 3-3 combos not even make it to their first senior GP; many of these juniors didn't even get a second JGP spot in the past few years. And then maybe we will see girls taking up popular sports that are less dense in talent, like artistic gymnastics, and the figure skating talent pool in Russia will decrease. I don't think Russia will fade into oblivion in ladies figure skating, but I also don't think this level of depth will last forever.

One thing to note is that the cycle comes to Russia in very quick rising and massive waves, and that comes back to being state-funded. In non-stated funded nations, even though popularity increases, the talent pool does not increase as quickly and as much because not everyone who wants to can. There is the additional very important financial component and only a small percentage of potential skaters have that luxury.

It's interesting that US ladies figure skating has struggled so much when US women's gymnastics is so dominant. I was curious so I crunched some numbers:

In the past six years of ladies' figure skating, Russia won 10 of 18 possible medals at the most important competition of the year (I didn't count 2014 or 2018 Worlds). It won 6 of 6 possible championships. Russia has not lost a championship since 2013 (Yuna Kim).

In the past seventeen years of women's gymnastics, the US won 25 of 34 (73.5%) possible medals at the most important competition of the year (individual all-around). It won 14 of 17 (82.35%) possible championships. The US has not lost a championship since 2010 (Aliya Mustafina).

ivylewis1547 said:

It's interesting that US ladies figure skating has struggled so much when US women's gymnastics is so dominant. I was curious so I crunched some numbers:

In the past six years of ladies' figure skating, Russia won 10 of 18 possible medals at the most important competition of the year (I didn't count 2014 or 2018 Worlds). It won 6 of 6 possible championships. Russia has not lost a championship since 2013 (Yuna Kim).

In the past seventeen years of women's gymnastics, the US won 25 of 34 (73.5%) possible medals at the most important competition of the year (individual all-around). It won 14 of 17 (82.35%) possible championships. The US has not lost a championship since 2010 (Aliya Mustafina).

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Ruassia also lost a championship at 2018 Worlds to Osmond. Just a little correction.

jenaj said:

I don’t think the cost has exceeded the rate of inflation. And skaters now don’t have to wait to make money by going “pro,” like they used to. It only takes one for the US ladies to succeed. And they may have the one in Alysa Liu.

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i agree. and it contributes to future generations. not the best exam but look at yuna kim and korea. I don't know if fs is subsidized there like in russia or not at all like the us (or something in between) but you see the ladies in juniors who were winning jgps left and right and are strong contenders now. it's a gradual process and all it takes is one great skater to inspire the country.