Has it ever occured between 1892 and now?
Should Ladies Skating Allow Quads in the SP?
- Thread starter Sam-Skwantch
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Thank you for answering. That is basically what I thought. The only way to "prerotate" a Lutz is not to do a Lutz at all, but rather to switch over to an inside edge (or not to employ a true toe-pick assist). If you do that, then never mind prerotation, it is an edge call that we have to look out for.
However, I also have to say that the main thing I get out of these videos is that the video-maker likes Boyang Jin and dislikes Anna Shcherbakova. What I see is one of Jin's best quad Lutzes being compared to one of Shcherbakova's bad ones.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Has it ever occured between 1892 and now?
It is hard to say. Back in the 6.0 days TV commentators would often say, "that jump was cheated." What exactly they were referring to and how these "cheats" were reflected in the judges' scores was never brought to light, at least to the general audience.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Thank you for answering. I was more interested in understanding the mecahnics of the Lutz jump than in entering into arguments about good or bad techniques. (I count myself as one of those who do not understanding jump mechanics and have never set foot on the ice.
)
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
Thank you for answering. I was more interested in understanding the mecahnics of the Lutz jump than in entering into arguments about good or bad techniques. (I count myself as one of those who do not understanding jump mechanics and have never set foot on the ice.
If we were to get real technical about it, I would say it's safe to say most skaters "prerotate" to some degree, even those who are said to have perfect technique. It's just the way jumps work- when you have forward or backward speed and momentum and then create rotating movement, it happens. Your body isnt going up and down in one spot, you're still travelling across the ice. It's just how it works- skaters are human beings, not robots. Most people just dont understand, especially those who havent actually skated. I am appreciative of your willingness to learn
As far as the excerpt from the ISU on the toe loop- a cheated forward takeoff is a toe axel which has already been discussed here. Your entire body and hips open before you pick, leading the skater to put their toe in the ice facing forward, hence the "axel". A toe loop is picked when the body and hips are facing backwards, then follows through to create the lift and rotation. Sasha Trusova does not have this issue.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
I'm not sure the commentators themselves knew exactly how it affected the score. Surya Bonaly did quite a few 3F-3T combinations in 1994 and 1995, and I think ever single 3T was very badly cheated (as in clearly <<). At the 1994 Olympics, she had one of these cheats, a popped lutz, and fall on a 3Lz in the LP and earned mostly 5.7s and 5.8s on the first mark. At 1994 Worlds, she had the same bad cheat, a cheat on the first 3Lz, and a hand down on the 3Lo in the LP and got 5.8s and 5.9s. I'm not sure if those could have been any higher with a clean 3-3, given the other mistakes.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't think that this characterization of a quad jump is disrespectful to the skaters that can do them.
I think rather, that it is a criticism of the implementation of the scoring system. The whole basis of the IJS scoring system is that there are many ways to score points, reflecting the fact that figure skating is a complex sport.
And yet in the event, what is it that actually, really and truly snags the big points? Jumps get way more points than anything else. Within the category of jumps, an "extra revolution" basically triples the value of the element, independent of all other considerations. This laser focus on one aspect of one type of element, to me, distorts the balance of skills and undermines the nature of the sport.
By the way, I think that the ISU kind of agrees. For instance,
single toe loop = 0.4
double toe loop = 1.3 (factor of 3.25 higher)
triple toe loop = 4.1 (factor of 3.15 higher)
quad toe loop = 9.5 (factor of only 2.32 higher)
A quad toe loop "should" be about 12.3 -- but the ISU evidently felt (as shown by the last few revisions in the scale of values) that this, though mathematically consistent, would put undue emphasis on that "one extra revolution" to the point of marginalizing all other ingredients in our savory goulash.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2010
This is true. Here is Jason Brown, who most would say has good technique on the triple jumps, illustrating the six different triples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKulecXlyFs
With the slow motion replays they show, you can see that on the 3T, 3S, and 3Lo, he prerotates a full 180 degrees.
I'm pretty sure they (Dick Button, mainly) were referring to under-rotation.
ETA: Here, Dick Button says about young Janet Lynn's triple jump, a little tiny cheat, "on the end." https://youtu.be/NiPabVuiGBM?t=32
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2017
While it has nothing to do with topic theme - I wasn't the first who started this discussion here and I can't ignore this bs repeated again and again. What you was shown was deliberately crafted propaganda movie made with very solid video-editing skills - which has nothing to do with actual ISU rules or even known jump definitions. Still, even this movie allow to see that Anna's jump satisfies lutz requirements according to what we know about this jump from ISU-affiliated sources.
1) https://youtu.be/6tWmm4AKmgc?t=79 "as the pick enters the ice" she has outside edge which is clearly shown here https://ibb.co/x1xFMfz
And of course https://www.usfsa.org/content/Identifying Jumps.pdf "A Lutz should have a strong backward outside
edge BEFORE the skater taps into the ice" it satisfies that requirement as well.
2) nevertheless, let us ignore these sources for a moment since there will be lots of naysayers willing to doubt their credibility. Even in that case, if we assume that skater should keep the outside edge during the whole takeoff process until he leaves the ice - it puts Boyang Jin in peculiar position himself. According to this assumption he will be having flat edge just before leaving the ice, while his both blades still touches the ice https://ibb.co/XVDWG4g
I suppose the ideal time for determining lutz edge for Anna's haters would be in the middle of prerotation phase - but why it should be exactly then? There is nothing about it in any known ISU rule or education video
3) as for so called "toe pick assist" or "full blade assist" - it's fully artificial terms having nothing to do with reality - including this video as well which blatantly lies in your face with fake inscriptions. As you can see here https://ibb.co/RSL7VSv pretty much every jump are using both toe and top part of a blade - in different proportions. The main difference between these two jumps (except prerotation degree) is range between ice and blade or angle at which blade connects with ice during prerotation (in both cases it's not coincides with ice surface and have clearly discernible air gap) - which fully contradicts FULL blade false statement. Moreover, even majority of edge jumps such as loops and axels - do not use FULL blade during takeoff - they uses half of the blade and toe pick during takeoff as well. The only jump which really uses almost full blade in many cases is salchov - which results in absolutely different snow behavior during takeoff.
Here is example of Trusova's 4S https://youtu.be/yk_WrS3GF8I?t=655 where full blade salchov takeoff makes huge snow eruptions during prerotation.
Here is example of Trusova's 4Lz https://youtu.be/yk_WrS3GF8I?t=677 where presumably "full blade" lutz takeoff makes only one-time snow crumbs from picking the ice.
Watch both videos in 0.25 slo-mo (you can set the speed in right-bottom corner of a video in youtube settings icon) and see the difference between full contact of blade with ice and absence of it
Nevertheless all jumps are quite similar to each other when considering blade-to-ice interaction of main foot on micro-level. So, answering your question - yes, it's perfectly possible to prerotate a lutz.If that is the case - why you adopted "full blade" and "prerotation" preconceived notions already? True newbie should exist in a "blank state".Thank you for answering. I was more interested in understanding the mecahnics of the Lutz jump than in entering into arguments about good or bad techniques. (I count myself as one of those who do not understanding jump mechanics and have never set foot on the ice.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2017
I believe it can be said only by a guy who
Otherwise he would never said that knowing how extremely difficult it is to jump a quad and how many time and energy it requires to learn it. Moreover - the element is so difficult that it's not possible to learn at all by many skaters due to their physiology traits. Is it that surprising that element which only a few can do - costs this much? IMO lowering the cost of this element is what "undermines the nature of the sport"
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I will try to perfect my blank stare.
But in the meantime, I still am not 100% satisfied with the answers that all the kind posters here have given.
The skater is approaching the take-off on a back outside edge on a clockwise curve. Are you saying that then she starts spinning on the ice in a counterclockwise direction for 180 degrees before breaking contact with the ice? What, is she scraping the blade along sideways while she are doing this? Is she standing en pointe on her toepick twirling now this way, now that?
As for prerotation and full blade takeoff, I have not said anything at all about those topics, and frankly I don't care -- I will happily leave that up to the ISU and its rule book. But the poster PyeongChang a5 least addressed the question of how all this scraping and twirling might be possible within the laws of physics.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2017
Yep.
Nope. If she was doing it - there would be snow eruptions along the way of blade scraping. There aren't.
Not exactly. She twirls on top part of her blade and toe pick - being pretty close to the ice - which isn't exactly what you can call "en pointe". But contact with the blade is not that wide that you can call it "full blade" either.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
I will try to perfect my blank stare.
But in the meantime, I still am not 100% satisfied with the answers that all the kind posters here have given.
The skater is approaching the take-off on a back outside edge on a clockwise curve. Are you saying that then she starts spinning on the ice in a counterclockwise direction for 180 degrees before breaking contact with the ice? What, is she scraping the blade along sideways while she are doing this? Is she standing en pointe on her toepick twirling now this way, now that?
As for prerotation and full blade takeoff, I have not said anything at all about those topics, and frankly I don't care -- I will happily leave that up to the ISU and its rule book. But the poster PyeongChang a5 least addressed the question of how all this scraping and twirling might be possible within the laws of physics.
both of these are pretty correct, although i agree with elucidus on the pick- as the skater follows through to get up into the air after they have picked, there is a transfer of weight from one foot to the other, while simultaneously doing what i explained above having directional speed and momentum, and then creating rotating movement. all these elements combine to create a "rotating pick" which some call "prerotation" and "full blade takeoff". some skaters get into the air quicker, some do not. some rock back farther on their pick or ball of the foot more than others. one is not better than the other and one is not more correct than the other- anything else is just noise.
here is an example on each end of the spectrum:
Yuna Kim, who has little to no prerotation on her lutz, 1/4 rotation or less. this is seen to many who discuss prerotation and full blade takeoff as someone who has "perfect technique"
https://youtu.be/-mzrWNNuaK0?t=14
and everyone's favorite to pick on, poor Anna Shcherbakova- slow this down to .25 since it is full speed video. this example has about 1/2 rotation until her pick leaves the ice, but i do want to point out when her toe hits the ice for the pick, it is turned inside towards her other foot quite a bit, where Yuna's is backward.
https://youtu.be/FOzD7vSJkCY?t=110
again, neither of these skaters can warrant any deductions for how they pick and carry up into the air- only edge calls if necessary.
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2014
To be fair, it's not that anyone is picking on her. It's that people are pointing out her jumps aren't full quads. By your own evaluation, when she picks, not only is her foot turned in, it is also turned in the direction she is about to travel. And, her entire body is turned in that direction. THAT is the point in the jump at which you begin counting revolutions. Is it possible to embed screenshots because I have some good pictures.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
sorry, but this is not how jumps are judged. this is what i mean by nit picking.
as i stated earlier, foot position and the exact moment of lift into the air does not matter when being scored. the judges do not count revolutions based on the exact millisecond the skater's blade leaves the ice, it's from the general direction/position of takeoff. in the case of a lutz, backwards. nothing more.
Anna's takeoff is not incorrect per the rules. an under rotated jump is only under rotated based on where the blade hits the ice on the landing. a "full quad" is a full quad if the blade hits the ice backwards on the landing, based on the rules.
i don't understand why you think screenshots changes any of the criteria of how judges judge a jump.
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2014
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Pause your video on 0.25 speed and you'll see she is not facing backwards before picking.
Edit: If I could post the picture that I have saved right now, this argument would be over once and for all lol
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2011
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2019
I believe it can be said only by a guy who Otherwise he would never said that knowing how extremely difficult it is to jump a quad and how many time and energy it requires to learn it. Moreover - the element is so difficult that it's not possible to learn at all by many skaters due to their physiology traits. Is it that surprising that element which only a few can do - costs this much? IMO lowering the cost of this element is what "undermines the nature of the sport"
I think you and Mathman perfectly exsposed the 2 sides of the moon.
Both approach are respectful.
I'm all for balance, but it's limiting the quads value the right way to achieve it? (I don't think so)
Why only jumps are moving forward?
Becasue there is no limit in the rules.
Spins and step sequences are locked to level 4.
Increasing the difficult has only risk and no reward.
Why there is no level 5 steo sequence?
Step sequence in dance are far more difficult so there is room to improve.
What can we do for spins? (apart increasing the number of rotation that is trivial)
That "element which only a few can do" should exist as maximum level for any base element, and also the PCS categories (or whatever you want to put in their place) should contain strongly discriminating elements between the maximum (best) and who's good but just a step behind.
We can multply PCS as much as we want but if the votes are basically ordinals (1st get 9.5, 2nd 9.25, 3rd 9.0) we are just multiplying manipulation opportunities and not giving credits to good performers.
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2019
I'm guilty too, but going back to the main topic: On what I think will happen, it's inevitable that Quads will be allowed in the SP unless the whole structure of programs changes (which is also being discussed). With timescale I think it wil be after the next Olympics earliest.
Similar threads
