US Coaches restricted by SafeSport

luckyguy said:

Please calm down. It is only an unverified rumour.

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I typed it very calmly. I've heard things about how this organization and the people in it work, and saying "I'm unimpressed" would be an understatement. I believe it, or at least I believe the person in question is in great fear. Even if untrue, the USFS needs reevaluation.

zebobes said:

I checked, and I believe you may have misread the comment. The commenter was saying they think the person NEEDS to have a bodyguard, not that they WILL.

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I think it can be interpreted in both ways.
1) the commentator saying the victim actually needs to have a bodyguard present because they're in danger (the commentator implying she knows the victim and/or knows of the danger)
2) the commentator recommending the victim needs a bodyguard

Here's the comment in question by the way, for those who haven't seen: "The alleged victim that is competing this week needs to have a bodyguard/coach/family member with them at all times. I have a feeling someone is going to reveal their identity."

As far as we know this is a random person commenting on the matter. We don't know if this person knows the victim or has some insider knowledge. So, without knowing who this commentator is, or what she knows, trusting a random online comment is not a good course of action. As such I believe this person means 2) Especially since she fears someone might reveal the identity of the victim. I think the commentator fears that the identity of the victim will be made public and this will lead to protection being needed at all times (since there seems to be a lot of hatred towards the victim from many sides)

She is reportedly (Brennan) an adult woman. It is very likely that her identity will be disclosed. She must reckon that the character of her relationship with Coughlin will be publicly discussed in the near future.

There are, to my knowledge, two or three accusers, and the notion that any of them may face retaliation for their actions makes me feel ill. What kind of message does that send to anyone else who might currently be the victim of abuse? "If you try to stop your abuser, the skating community will rally around your abuser, not you. You may be subject to further abuse by people who do not believe you, and many people will not believe you unless you happen to have very solid documentation of incredibly painful events and are willing to open up your pain to public scrutiny. People will be happy to ruin your career while bemoaning the ruination of the career of your abuser."

I hope no one bothers the accusers and they are allowed to get on with their lives. Unless you can somehow prove that their accusations are false (doubtful, especially since there are multiple accusers), no one should be taking any action against them (and even if you could somehow prove the accusations were false, unless you are a member of some kind of disciplinary committee it's not up to you to dole out punishment). No one should be spreading their names or be out to ruin their careers and reputations.

I'm also baffled by some of the criticisms of SafeSport. If SafeSport receives a credible allegation, they have to act to protect athletes, many of whom are minors. Investigations take a long time--by the time a thorough investigation has been done, more people may have been victimized. Unfortunately, there is not really a way to protect both the reputation of the accused and the safety of athletes at the same time during the investigation period, and the safety of athletes, especially minors, comes first (note that even if the accuser is an adult, there may be potential victims who are still minors). If you are falsely accused, of course it sucks, but the investigation will eventually clear you, and it's more than obvious from the reactions to this incident that a lot of people will still be on your side. In the mean time, take solace and strength from the fact that you have done nothing wrong.

But based on the publicly available evidence (multiple accusers, SafeSport thought there was enough evidence to warrant emergency suspension, the facts don't fit false accusation patterns, false accusations are pretty rare anyway), it's more likely than not that these accusations are true. Which makes this whole thing sadder.

brightphoton said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bs4adRzn_uz/

From PSA President Christine Fowler-Binder and the Executive Committee of the Professional Skaters Association: ... PSA will do everything in its power to advocate and support our coaches ...

The lesson learned from this is that the 3 skaters that John Coughlin allegedly sexually assaulted don't matter and are troublemakers. They are not wanted in figure skating.

One of them is even going to Nationals in Detroit this week with bodyguards. How terrible to know that your organization has sent out a public, official message telling you that you were wrong to report abuse.

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Are you aware that the terms “sexual misconduct” and “sexual assault” are not synonymous? In this case there is no indication that the reports of sexual misconduct involved assault.

A very sad incident. This doesn't fit John's warm smile which we all know. More I think, it is becoming devastating, so I am trying not to think about it.

Shanshani said:

There are, to my knowledge, two or three accusers, and the notion that any of them may face retaliation for their actions makes me feel ill. What kind of message does that send to anyone else who might currently be the victim of abuse? "If you try to stop your abuser, the skating community will rally around your abuser, not you. You may be subject to further abuse by people who do not believe you, and many people will not believe you unless you happen to have very solid documentation of incredibly painful events and are willing to open up your pain to public scrutiny. People will be happy to ruin your career while bemoaning the ruination of the career of your abuser."

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It's quite difficult to believe *** about ***. It's not like I don't want to.
The only real fact that skating community know is that Coughlin is dead. All the rest is like *** did *** with ***. I don't need to know the names and all the details, but I need a little more to believe. I mean some official information and not "someone told me something". And I'm talking about system not accusers.

We are an international forum but most countries I'm aware of have rape shield laws. PLEASE do not out anyone even if it to support them. The identity of the accuser should only be discussed when and if they come forward and self identify.

Alegria said:

So a person was not allowed to talk about the matter in public, but decides that it's ok to talk to journalist? Really? Are we still talking about moral and ethics?

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If someone was in eminent danger I can see how someone might feel compelled out of a sense of ethics and well being to break the silence. We’ll have to wait and see what the charges were before we’ll know for certain if breaching the rules of conduct of the investigation was warranted or not.

The PRA statement reads to me as saying, "We were required to report these accusations, but John was our dear, respected friend" and wow, what an implication that victims better shut up and go away. "We had to say it, but remember he was beloved and trusted and we will do everything we can to protect coaches."

As some have pointed out, these allegations were made public by the appropriate organizations, and rightly so imo. Email blasts as required - this was not leaked or rumored information - public accusations. I agree in this specific way with Lease and Brennan very strongly - to NOT have reported this already public information would to NOT have done their jobs as reporters, and in this type of situation, it would have been unethical as well to me. Their position is akin to a duty to report, when information is appropriately substantiated. Lease pointed out he did the exact same thing in other cases, sharing/publishing the official reports of complaints/ suspensions.

This wasn't a witch hunt at all in my opinion, tragic though the entire situation has been for everyone, and I do feel for Coughlin 's family and friends.

Are we as a culture really ready to back pedal away from the goals and aims of SafeSport so soon after Nassar and gymnastics?

I do believe that false accusations can have horrible and possibly long term negative effects. I don't want to minimize that. I recognize that the duty to protect additional/potential victims from harm can and usually is in opposition to desires to keep accusations of wrongdoing private until final determinations are made, and I know no easy ways to give equal protections to both sides, accused and accusers.

But echoing what Mathman said, a sentence or two from PSA about ALSO wanting to support and protect victims would have gone a long way toward not looking like we (general we) are, as a culture, poised/ready to go right back to cultures of silencing and blaming victims. Complete with upset persons ready to call messengers of official information murderers. ( Within a very short time of the posting of TSL's interview with Brennan, the "you are a murderer" comments - using that word - were posted toward Dave.)

ancientpeas said:

We are an international forum but most countries I'm aware of have rape shield laws. PLEASE do not out anyone even if it to support them. The identity of the accuser should only be discussed when and if they come forward and self identify.

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I wanted to second this statement!

Sam-Skwantch said:

If someone was in eminent danger I can see how someone might feel compelled out of a sense of ethics and well being to break the silence. We’ll have to wait and see what the charges were before we’ll know for certain if breaching the rules of conduct of the investigation was warranted or not.

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So it's ok to violate rules? Today is ok to tell the charges, tomorrow it will be ok to tell names.
If someone in this delicate case was told (or may be even he/she signed some papers) not to talk about so there was a reason for it. If Brennan believed that it's wrong way to act, then she should say it and ask SS why is it so.
I don't get it. It's double standards.

Shanshani said:

There are, to my knowledge, two or three accusers, and the notion that any of them may face retaliation for their actions makes me feel ill. What kind of message does that send to anyone else who might currently be the victim of abuse? "If you try to stop your abuser, the skating community will rally around your abuser, not you. You may be subject to further abuse by people who do not believe you, and many people will not believe you unless you happen to have very solid documentation of incredibly painful events and are willing to open up your pain to public scrutiny. People will be happy to ruin your career while bemoaning the ruination of the career of your abuser."

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Has anyone actually faced retribution or exacted revenge of some sort? We need to be careful not to escslate a hear say statement of possible retaliatory action from a matter of possibility into a matter of probability because that in and of itself can actually add to the pressure on the victims and even deter other victims from coming forward.

I’m just saying we need to be careful not to elevate the situation ourselves. We never know who may be reading our words on the internet and how much value they put in our posts. I feel confident in saying that if someone were to feel threatened by a judge or another skater that the community of fans, coaches, officials, skaters, etc.. would overwhelming as a group rally behind someone in need. I’ve seen lots of conflict within the sport and not everyone is on the same side due to various reasons or experiences but I see nothing to suggest it’s commonly accepted to silence an accuser and later exact revenge.

I hope no one bothers the accusers and they are allowed to get on with their lives. Unless you can somehow prove that their accusations are false (doubtful, especially since there are multiple accusers), no one should be taking any action against them (and even if you could somehow prove the accusations were false, unless you are a member of some kind of disciplinary committee it's not up to you to dole out punishment). No one should be spreading their names or be out to ruin their careers and reputations.

I couldn't agree more people shouldn't ruin others careers and reputations based on accusation without proof

Alegria said:

So it's ok to violate rules? Today is ok to tell the charges, tomorrow it will be ok to tell names.
If someone in this delicate case was told (or may be even he/she signed some papers) not to talk about so there was a reason for it. If Brennan believed that it's wrong way to act, then she should say it and ask SS why is it so.
I don't get it. It's double standards.

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Clearly the person who was asked not to speak publicly shouldn’t have spoken to a reporter until the investigation had concluded. We don’t even need to speculate on what sort of impact doing so can bring to an investigation but until we know the facts we can’t determine if it was in the interest of people facing eminent danger from John or if other motivation was at play for them.

I really hope it wasn’t someone within Safe Sport leaking information before the investigation had concluded. I actually believe in the idea of Safe Sport even if it needs to evolve but it absolutley cant be leaking out information publicly.

We just need some time and more information. I suspect Safe Sport hasn’t even had a chance to come together and formulate a plan considering it’s a three day weekend in the US. Those involved on the matter will probably schedule a meeting after enough time had passed needed to make final preparations to close down the case.

Sam-Skwantch said:

Clearly the person who was asked not to speak publicly shouldn’t have spoken to a reporter until the investigation had concluded. We don’t even need to speculate on what sort of impact doing so can bring to an investigation but until we know the facts we can’t determine if it was in the interest of people facing eminent danger from John or if other motivation was at play for them.

I really hope it wasn’t someone within Safe Sport leaking information before the investigation had concluded. I actually believe in the idea of Safe Sport even if it needs to evolve but it absolutley cant be leaking out information publicly.

We just need some time and more information. I suspect Safe Sport hasn’t even had a chance to come together and formulate a plan considering it’s a three day weekend in the US. Those involved on the matter will probably schedule a meeting after enough time had passed needed to make final preparations to close down the case.

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But it's Brennan, who still thinks it was ok to leak this information. It was her choice to write it.

Just popping back in here briefly to respond to all this new, er, information.

So, basically, all we still know for sure from anyone official as opposed to unconfirmed news and/or speculation and unauthorized blabbing to reporters is:
1) There were three allegations of some kind of sexual misconduct, two involving minors.
2) John was restricted, then suspended.
3) John is dead, and the investigation might or might not continue.
4) TSL keeps posting videos and then deleting them.

What we do not know for sure is:
1) Whether or not the allegations were true or of anything illegal, nor how old John was during the alleged misconduct with minors, nor how old the minors were.
2) Whether the identities of the accusers really are known or if there is any danger to them.
3) What will happen next, whether this will discourage anyone from reporting misconduct.
4) Why TSL deletes the videos.

If there really is danger to the accusers, that is inexcusable. But I also know from personal experience (albeit on a much smaller scale and not over anything sexual) that it's possible to get someone (or multiple someones) in trouble and get plenty of resentment but no danger beyond some cold shoulders and whispers and no effects on one's career beyond some discomfort until it fizzles out. And these someones and their friends already hated my guts before I got them in trouble.

As Sam-Skwantch said, it is not going to help people come forward to play up unconfirmed danger. So many people in my situation were also wronged but never spoke up, perhaps out of fear of retaliation. But I did. And there was no retaliation.

I remember something from the deleted TSL interview. The woman said that John's actions did not happen in a vacuum. He did not act alone. There were people who saw him act, perhaps groom, and because of the culture of US pairs figure skating, and this did not alarm anyone.

Many skaters have written public messages of support. Many have donated money to his GoFundMe. Mervin Tran may know who one of the accusers is. Dave Lease says many figure skating judges know who the accuser is. Professional Skaters Assocation has released a message that publicly supports John. What did people know? Did they turn a blind eye?

Today, Larry Nassar is vilified and in jail, but he did not act alone. There were high ranking officials and coaches in the University of Michigan and USA Gymnastics who enabled him and turned a blind eye to his actions. Almost all of them are walking free, some still with high paying jobs in their original institutions.

Please, If you are gonna post TSL´s links, let us know is a TSL´s link so we can choose if we want to click on it or not... and not give them mistakes views.

Edwin said:

Thanks for the clarification.

Both USFSA and PGA are subordinate to USOC?

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USFSA is subordinate- essentially all the sport specific organizations the send athletes to international competition as 'Team USA' must operate under charter of the USOC. And the USOC has a history of being willing to follow a probation/suspension/decertification path for organizations that cannot keep their house in order whether it's from a financial or lack of institutional control standpoint. USA Gymnastics is currently facing full decertification because the rot is so deep there what remains isn't enough to salvage. (For athletes, there will be some sort of interim body to allow for international competition as a new organization is shaped)

The overlap with coaching or athlete groups isn't so strong in most cases, though federations will often use the coaching groups as a way of disseminating program information, conducting continuing education classes, etc.

Alegria said:

Let's see

So a person was not allowed to talk about the matter in public, but decides that it's ok to talk to journalist? Really? Are we still talking about moral and ethics?

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There's a long tradition in journalism of people speaking to reporters off the record. Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not so much, but it literally happens hundreds of times a day across the country so that it happening here is hardly exceptional.