2015 US Nationals Senior Ladies FS Jan 24

[Sandpiper]

Doing choctaws into her Lutzes is more difficult than how Ashley enters her axels. The spread eagle leading up to the 3Loop provides more difficulty, and we can definitely say that Ashley is exhibiting greater variety, but then it goes back to how Ashley has more crossovers in the program and less going on inbetween elements. Tukt also has the power pull on her final 2Axel as a jump transition.

So, to use a comparison... would you say Liza's spiral entry into 2A is actually easier than Yulia's steps before her SP 2A? (Just talking about the entry here--Liza clearly has a more difficult exit.)

Doing a back glide and switching over on the edge while putting your free foot down on the ice is really not a transition to me. It's just a slight variation from the "norm", like a mohawk vs. a three-turn entry for a Triple Flip. If that's a transition then so is Tukt's little hop setup into her 3Flip.

I think there are two main criteria when judging figure skating: 1) Is it difficult? 2) Is it--for the lack of a better word--pretty? To me, it looks like Ashley would have an easier time doing her 3Lo-1Lo-3S if she did a more basic entry. While with Liza's flip, I think that's just the way she gets off the inside edge. And if she were to approach it like she did her loop, that might actually make the jump more difficult for her. This is why I personally see Ashley's entry to her three-jump-combo as more valuable than Liza's entry to her flip. (Now, on the second criteria--even if it is not a transition, I would agree with Kurt Browning that it is "beautiful" and "unusual." ).

All that being said: Blades of Passion, I really appreciate your expertise and the discussion it generates. I still disagree on the effectiveness of Ashley's program as a whole, but you make some very good points. I'll definitely be paying attention to the details you mentioned when I rewatch Ashley and Liza's programs (and when they go head-to-head at Worlds--both clean, hopefully!)

Ashley has withdrawn from 4cc

I guess she wants to focus on training/preparing for Worlds? Happy for Cesario, as long as nothing's wrong on Ashley's end.

OTOH, if Gracie could go and actually win it could help her going into Words, especially with her standing as 'US #1' not assured at all.

I don't think Gracie is US #1 at this point. Love or hate Ashley, you gotta give her that. But if Gracie skates clean and wins 4CC, they'll be nearly equal heading into Worlds.

 

[tulosai]

I don't think Gracie is US #1 at this point. Love or hate Ashley, you gotta give her that. But if Gracie skates clean and wins 4CC, they'll be nearly equal heading into Worlds.

Oh don't misjudge me- I'm an Ashley fan and actually don't much like Gracie. But internationally I'd argue they are on about equal footing right now, with a small momentum to Ashley due to her finish at the GPF. The US did jut anoint her #1 but what the international judges will do with them remains to be seen especially if, as expected, Ashley gets called on some things internationally.

 

[Miss Ice]

Karen was quite expressive, especially for her age:
http://a.espncdn.com/media/gettyphoto/2015\01\24\462112398.jpg

And this layback? http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/01/25/article-doc-41gz-6Vq7ADRSD-HSK1-717_634x499.jpg

Personally, this is the only US ladies skater I care about right now. Really have no opinion or emotion for any of the other medalists or others.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I focused on transitions because you keep bringing them up to explain why you disliked Ashley's performance.

I didn't dislike her performance. It was just massively overscored. CoP is misused by the judges.

While her performance is underwhelming from a transition standpoint, I am much more disappointed with the choreography, because that's where she has stronger potential.

I also don't think anyone would disagree that performance/execution instantly becomes much easier when you don't have to deal with IJS requirements for spins and footwork.

Oh, for sure. The current IJS footwork rules inherently make the movement look worse as well. It's never going to follow the music exactly. The spins frequently hurt programs too, although those sometimes have more wiggle room and aren't choreographed well enough much of the time. I don't think any of Ashley's spins in her program are what she should be doing, for example. She could have spins that look better for her capabilities, work better with the music, AND even get her more technical points. It's a mystery why they don't have her doing a camel-change-camel or a combination spin that starts with her flying corkscrew sit and transitions to forward camel and then layback positions.

 

[Sandpiper]

Oh don't misjudge me- I'm an Ashley fan and actually don't much like Gracie. But internationally I'd argue they are on about equal footing right now, with a small momentum to Ashley due to her finish at the GPF. The US did jut anoint her #1 but what the international judges will do with them remains to be seen especially if, as expected, Ashley gets called on some things internationally.

With these particular Nationals SPs + LPs, the international judges would have to be off their rocker to anoint Gracie over Ashley.

I'd argue Ashley's ahead internationally too. Sure, you can argue Gracie had bad luck due to the injury that took her out of GPF. But you can also make the argument that Ashley had worse luck on the GP circuit--she had to go up against Anna at SC and then both Elena and Yulia (in her best outing this season) at TEB. Gracie had a tough field at SA--and she performed about as Ashley did against them, coming in third. But she had a weak field in NHK, with only Alena/Satoko/Kanako. Ultimately, I still think a GPF medal against a strong field, with a convincing LP, is better than a GP win against a weak field with a convincing SP.

Anyway, if we apply these same criteria, it could be argued that Gracie wasn't USA #1 last season either, due to international results.

However, my apologies if it sounded like I accused you of being an Ashley hater. : I didn't mean it that way.

 

[RABID]

A view from the overseas. Ashley was the best - no doubt. Quite a powerful overall impression. Technically I am still skeptical about her lutz - it just looks strange. Well, the score is ridiculous - I think it is done for the international panels if she is clean: "look she had 148, and she is clean, why don't you give her at least 140?". With the current setups if all the Russians and Ashley are clean she will get the bronze - I still think she is not at par with Liza and Elena technically and their pcs is now at the same level. But she will win over Anna - same as GPF. If Ashley is clean (no 2 foot landings, solid flips instead of shaky lutzes) and our leaders are not then she can even win the worlds gold. As I said the nationals scoring is part of this scenario: there are no other real contenders this season. Next season with potential comeback of Adelina, Yulia and showing up of Sima and Zhenya Ashley will struggle big time during the GP season to get into GPF.

Polina has the growth challenge for sure - her jumps are smaller than last year. But she was much better now than during the GP - can get into top 10 in the worlds if she concentates. Although I got 0 points betting on her during the prediction game I think that long term she is US no. 1 at least now

Karen Chen is lovely. I saw that during JGP - she was my favorite among non-Russians. She reminds me of Satoko but I like her skating better. But, of course, thinking now of her 2018 chances is too early. And at least for me she cannot yet match Yulia during her previous season.

I don't like Satoko. I know this is crazy but it almost feels like she is cheating and I don't even know why I feel that way. I THINK it is because it almost looks like she is doing walk throughs and not really skating. EVERYTHING about her is small and I hate "small" being rewarded. Karen on the other hand is all sorts of WOW and one of the reasons for that is that she skates LARGE; so different from Satoko...

 

[Scovies]

I didn't dislike her performance. It was just massively overscored. CoP is misused by the judges.

I think everyone, even people who loved everything about the performance, agreed on that point. I just don't understand why this is being brought up because EVERYONE at Nationals is massively overscored. And I know a lot of people think this does a disservice to the skaters, but they know as well as we do how inflated everything is, especially the ones who have competed on the GP circuit. I do think her performance deserved to win by a freaking mile, which is how everything was scored.

While her performance is underwhelming from a transition standpoint, I am much more disappointed with the choreography, because that's where she has stronger potential.

I'm genuinely curious; what are your favorite programs of hers, choreographically? I really love this FS for her, and would put it up with Samson & Delilah as my favorite of hers.

Oh, for sure. The current IJS footwork rules inherently make the movement look worse as well. It's never going to follow the music exactly. The spins frequently hurt programs too, although those sometimes have more wiggle room and aren't choreographed well enough much of the time. I don't think any of Ashley's spins in her program are what she should be doing, for example. She could have spins that look better for her capabilities, work better with the music, AND even get her more technical points. It's a mystery why they don't have her doing a camel-change-camel or a combination spin that starts with her flying corkscrew sit and transitions to forward camel and then layback positions.

I think she has a really pretty position on her camel spins (that arch!), but she seems to really struggle to keep good speed while doing it. She got two Level 4s and one Level 3 at Skate Canada, so I think she just needs to focus on training them more and she'll be fine. She mentioned in an interview that her back is "geriatric" from doing layback spins for over a decade, so I don't blame her for trying to avoid that in her FS.

 

[tulosai]

With these particular Nationals SPs + LPs, the international judges would have to be off their rocker to anoint Gracie over Ashley.

I'd argue Ashley's ahead internationally too. Sure, you can argue Gracie had bad luck due to the injury that took her out of GPF. But you can also make the argument that Ashley had worse luck on the GP circuit--she had to go up against Anna at SC and then both Elena and Yulia (in her best outing this season) at TEB. Gracie had a tough field at SA--and she performed about as Ashley did against them, coming in third. But she had a weak field in NHK, with only Alena/Satoko/Kanako. Ultimately, I still think a GPF medal against a strong field, with a convincing LP, is better than a GP win against a weak field with a convincing SP.

Anyway, if we apply these same criteria, it could be argued that Gracie wasn't USA #1 last season either, due to international results.

However, my apologies if it sounded like I accused you of being an Ashley hater. : I didn't mean it that way.

Oh no, no worries! I have read lots and lots of your posts and know you wouldn't mean it that way- I didn't mean to sound defensive, I just wanted to make sure I was being clear, myself.

As for the rest of your post I actually would have argued Ashley was #1 last season until Nationals and then the tide kind of turned.

Anyway, they are both very good skaters in their own right I look forward to Worlds!

 

[Crossover]

I've just heard Cesario will be replaced with Ashley's spot for the 4CCs. It's good for her since Cesario needs to build a career in big international events besides her assignment for grand prix series. However, I personally don't find her Carmen plausible nor artistic that the NBC commentators praised. Carmen is one of my favorite operas that I used to go see to the theater, but I was bored to watch her carry out series of required jumps almost without transitions and choreography. She was so slow on the ice and telegraphed jumping. While she was fierce and eager to cope with the SP's shortage, I don't think her mere roaring and gazing toward the audience are good enough to depict Carmen's complex character; charming but dangerous seducer. In the upcoming 4CC, Cesario will be compared to Rika Hongo's Carmen, whose presentation also needs some polish and refinement, but at least filled with diverse arm and torso movements.

 

[Sandpiper]

I've just heard Cesario will be replaced with Ashley's spot for the 4CC. It's good for her since Cesario needs to build a career in big international events besides her assignment for grand prix series. However, I personally don't find her Carmen plausible nor artistic that the NBC commentators praised. Carmen is one of my favorite operas that I used to go to see to a theatre, but I was bored to watch her carry out series of required jumps with almost neither transitions nor choreography. She was so slow and telegraphed before jumping. While she was fierce and eager to cope with the SP's shortage, I don't think her roaring and gazing toward the audience are good enough to depict Carmen's complex character; charming but dangerous seducer. In the upcoming 4CC, Cesario will be compared to Rika Hongo's Carmen, whose presentation also need refinement, but at least filled with diverse arm and torso movements.

I prefered Cesario's SP to her LP at Nationals, but there is something intriguing about her Carmen. Most of your criticism is true. However, there's something innately 'Carmen' about Cesario. She can stand at centre ice, do nothing, and I kinda buy it.

Whereas with Hongo, she has to work at being Carmen. I eventually grew to like her LP (at Nationals specifically), and she has a more powerful ending than Cesario. But I can see why others adore Cesario's Carmen, but think Hongo needs something else.

As a side note, I actually tend to enjoy most of the Carmens (except Mura and Lysacek :hopelessness

 

[peg]

As a side note, I actually tend to enjoy most of the Carmens (except Mura and Lysacek :hopelessness

I can't believe you admitted that on these boards

 

[riceplate]

Uploaded a couple of Smucker's performances:

Gracie - sung by a famous friend
http://youtu.be/507xrzzvBjI

Ashley - Ariana Grande
http://youtu.be/AP52kzy3I4c

 

[andromache]

Uploaded a couple of Smucker's performances:

Gracie - sung by a famous friend
http://youtu.be/507xrzzvBjI

Ashley - Ariana Grande
http://youtu.be/AP52kzy3I4c

Is it possible to stream the gala anywhere?

 

[tulosai]

Uploaded a couple of Smucker's performances:

Gracie - sung by a famous friend
http://youtu.be/507xrzzvBjI

Ashley - Ariana Grande
http://youtu.be/AP52kzy3I4c

Great to see Ashley enjoying herself out there!

 

[Krunchii]

Uploaded a couple of Smucker's performances:

Gracie - sung by a famous friend
http://youtu.be/507xrzzvBjI

Ashley - Ariana Grande
http://youtu.be/AP52kzy3I4c

This is more of what I want to see from Gracie, her arms movements actually having some sort of purpose and matching the music, her POTO is so empty and I find her arms really annoying. Frank and Lori need to wake up and give her something more jazzy and upbeat. Some people just won't be musical and interpret classical music, they need to give Gracie a beat that she can move to.

And I'm not particularly fond of this EX from Ashley, it's nice to watch and everything but I kind of forget it after. Good performance from her though. Her hair is tempting me, I've had long hair for a while now and I've been contemplating cutting it to her length but I have a totally different face shape and what looks good on other people may not look good on me. Damn you Ashley.

 

[R.D.]

I don't think Gracie is US #1 at this point. Love or hate Ashley, you gotta give her that. But if Gracie skates clean and wins 4CC, they'll be nearly equal heading into Worlds.

Due to many factors (injury, missing training time), after this Nationals, it feels the pendulum has now swung back in Wagner's direction. But I don't think for a second that Gold is just going to fold up the shop and let Wagner reign supreme...Gold is every bit as much of a World medal contender and now I see people starting to count HER out after Wagner's Nationals win. I think Gold is just as determined as Wagner is, she just doesn't voice it nearly as much.

 

[nicfanz]

Karen is so underrated. In my opinion, she was the best of the night. But everyone's attention was on Ashley and Gracie. :no: I wasn't impressed with Ashley's performance and Grace was okay. But Karen was amazing and only 15. So much natural talent.

 

[thoakun]

This is more of what I want to see from Gracie, her arms movements actually having some sort of purpose and matching the music, her POTO is so empty and I find her arms really annoying. Frank and Lori need to wake up and give her something more jazzy and upbeat. Some people just won't be musical and interpret classical music, they need to give Gracie a beat that she can move to.

I don't know anyone who doesn't appreciate Gracie's gala. In fact, I only remember her ex programs: Shake it off, All That Jazz, The Show. I think Gracie wouldn't bring the house down if she keeps skating to classical music, since it's just not her. She doesn't even seem to be the person who likes classical music.

 

[Sandpiper]

I can't believe you admitted that on these boards

I ask skaters to keep it real... so I can only do the same. (The POTOs, however, need to go).

This is more of what I want to see from Gracie, her arms movements actually having some sort of purpose and matching the music, her POTO is so empty and I find her arms really annoying. Frank and Lori need to wake up and give her something more jazzy and upbeat. Some people just won't be musical and interpret classical music, they need to give Gracie a beat that she can move to.

I agree completely. She seems very genuine here, and her choreography and movements match the music.

Ashley's EX didn't really transform her the way Gracie's did (though admittedly, Love Me Harder is much harder--pardon the pun--to interpret than Shake It Off. There are no obvious images to mime to). However, I just love watching her skate, even when she's not doing much.

Due to many factors (injury, missing training time), after this Nationals, it feels the pendulum has now swung back in Wagner's direction. But I don't think for a second that Gold is just going to fold up the shop and let Wagner reign supreme...Gold is every bit as much of a World medal contender and now I see people starting to count HER out after Wagner's Nationals win. I think Gold is just as determined as Wagner is, she just doesn't voice it nearly as much.

I don't think Gracie will roll over and disappear. But Ashley is #1 now, the way Elena/Liza are Russian #1s (jointly) at this point. Of course it's not like Anna/Yulia/Adelina are chopped liver forevermore.

 

[Krunchii]

I don't know anyone who doesn't appreciate Gracie's gala. In fact, I only remember her ex programs: Shake it off, All That Jazz, The Show. I think Gracie wouldn't bring the house down if she keeps skating to classical music, since it's just not her. She doesn't even seem to be the person who likes classical music.

All That Jazz was also a lot better, I remember during the Olympic Ex none of my friends remembered her from the actual competition and thought she came out of nowhere so you're not the only one. She's a modern girl. Some people will never be classical no matter how hard they try but anyone can dance to the beat of a song that they actually enjoy. Now that there's more leeway her team needs to take advantage of that.