2015 World Team Trophy Ladies SP Apr 16

[andromache]

Re: the 3A

I think it'll be a shame if ladies start attempting 3As in competition, rotating them perfectly and falling, just for the points. One-fall-programs being the cleanest and the best in the field like has really started to characterize the men's event, and I don't want to see it happen to the ladies, too.

I understand and accept Liza's TES under the current rules. I like Liza and she deserves all the praise for her 3A accomplishment and pushing the sport, but I fear the day when nearly every winner of nearly every event doesn't skate clean--which is what has happened to the men.

Side note: I really, really hate how PCS aren't being accurately scored. Ashley's transitions are weaker than the other top ladies, but she's got the best musical interpretation in the business and I'd like to see her rewarded for it. (I just watched her program. ) I guess it evens out...if she's over-rewarded for transitions and lowballed on interpretation it comes out the same numbers-wise, but I'd like the protocols to reflect each skater's PCS strengths and weaknesses accurately.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

So happy for Gold for a strong SP!

I also don't take too much issue with Liza getting 70 points with a fully-rotated 3A fall, having nailed the 3Z and 3-3. A 3A fall is still harder than a 2A, and I'm glad she's pushing herself and the others.

As for the men, yeah, it's getting into splatfest territories, but that's the price of challenging yourself and the field. I think it makes clean skates something to marvel at, which is a good thing.

 

[robinhood]

if other ladies could rotate 3A and fall on it, we would have seen it by now. I don't think Liza is creating any trend by falling on her 3a attempt. She's the only lady at this moment to land 3a. The others are talking about it but I'm pretty sure they are far away to obtein one yet, otherwise we would have heard about it.

Gold deserved to be in 1st place. I worry about her jumping so close to the barriers. She was half a meter away from crashing into the boards and I hope they fix that for next season. Her skating is gorgeous even if I don't care for the Nichol choreography...

 

[Icey]

Found a link to Ashley's short program:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2muo4g_アシュリー-ワグナー-ashley-wagner-2015-world-team-trophy-sp_sport

I think she really captured the emotion of the music in this performance. Too bad about the flip!

Yes, emotionally this was her best performance this season imo.

 

[andyjo24]

Ashley: Good performance, but of course the technical problems did her in.

Gracie: Wow! I never ever thought Gracie was artistic before, but today, she was different. I really feel she improved artistically (almost no more airplane arms). But then, she really needs to work this summer on not trying to get too close to the boards on her 3-3... That scares me...

Elena: Good performance! She grew so much taller! Next season, though, I would like to see something a bit more mature.

Satoko: Good performance! She also definitely grew taller since the last time I've seen her, and she's more womanly now. . Too bad about missing the combo though.

Liza: Not the most inspiring performance, but great attempt at the 3A. At least it was fully rotated. I know I'm might get killed by some people here, but I think she gained weight since World's, which IMO is actually good and healthy. She deserves to eat more now that she's World Champion. But of course, she has to lose it all before next season. Haha.

 

[demarinis5]

Just watched the Ladies. Wow was Gracie on fire, best darn SP from her ever!!! She really is an exceptional skater
when she puts it all together. I also really liked Ashley's performance. To bad about Liza's fall.
Sheesh what happened with Mae she seems to have regressed a little this season.

 

[FlattFan]

2 years ago when Mao was double footing all of her 3A, but made the rotation, people were crying for her head. i hope the same crowd come after Liza for doing the same thing.

 

[Sandpiper]

Re: the 3A

I think it'll be a shame if ladies start attempting 3As in competition, rotating them perfectly and falling, just for the points. One-fall-programs being the cleanest and the best in the field like has really started to characterize the men's event, and I don't want to see it happen to the ladies, too.

I understand and accept Liza's TES under the current rules. I like Liza and she deserves all the praise for her 3A accomplishment and pushing the sport, but I fear the day when nearly every winner of nearly every event doesn't skate clean--which is what has happened to the men.

I agree. The men are steadily becoming a little unwatchable for me. There were moments this year when I went, "Oh, that was really good, he only fell once." (e.g. Michal Brezina at CoR LP, Javi at Worlds.) Then I'd stop and realize, "Are these the standards now?" :hopelessness: (Btw, I like both these guys I mentioned and was very happy to see them skate better than I expected. But a fall being "good enough" is still problematic.)

I take slight comfort in the fact that women tend to have more trouble with rotation, whereas men have trouble with landing. So it's unlikely others will choreography 3A falls, since they're unlikely to rotate the jump in the first place.

At the same time, we gotta admit that ladies have been stagnant technically since the early '90s. After Mao's break/possible retirement, I thought 3A was going to take its bow too, and we would've pretty much hit the technical ceiling. Never did I imagine that only one year later, the first 4-triple SP would be completed. I wouldn't want to raise the punishment so high that Liza decides to ditch her 3A and just go for lutz-toe like everyone else. All in all, I'd probably switch her scores with Elena's (68 for Liza, 70 for Elena), which means Liza could still win after the LP--she'd just need to be foot perfect, since she'd be behind Elena instead of in front.

 

[Meoima]

Well maybe they should keep the current deduction for fall to encourage difficulty, but add some bonus for clean performance? ("clean" in the meaning "landing all of your intended jumps and missing no spins"). Maybe that will solve the problem a bit.

 

[jenm]

Well I love Liza and Gracie, always have since the beginning, even during their slumps, but if I am to be honest...assuming they did both EXACTLY the same program, same choreography, same music today using same elements at their optimal level, I may have to give it to Gracie slightly.

I think I figured out why Gracie skate so close to the board. I wonder if it might be a deliberate choice from Frank Carroll to to emphasis her greater speed and coverage, and stronger athleticism in all aspects of her elements relative to Liza. Poor ice coverage used to be a criticism used against Liza and is something she have improved on but it is an area that can do with some work especially compare to the likes of Pogo, or Gracie. The camera close up really doesn't emphasis this, but I remember seeing Liza twice live before, and it is one thing I remember being surprised by. I didn't realize how small she is because of the way she had always carry herself as if she is 6ft tall come across better on zoomed in camera, and you don't get that impact at live scale, especially her delicate facial features which add so much more impact on camera.

Skating big, jump big and fast really makes a massive difference and this is a maturer Gracie with much improved presentation than liza over last few years, so I really don't see why her PCS especially in choreography and performance should lose out on Liza's SP, nor her skating skills for that matter. I just can't admire Liza's program construct. It follows my most detested COP cookie formula of: Jump one end, Jump another, meandering section of nothingness, slow *ss spins to kill time, more time wasting poseography /Kiss to the judge for extra points / having a bit of breather looking cute, finally half way point then go for the 3/3s bonuses; finally big long spins, heighten the drama to finish it up and go for the big wow factor. The elements in between feel segmented, staged, rather than integrated or relevant to the music at all. Little ice coverage in between and masking conservative skating for consistency with all that jazz. It is designed shamelessly do the minimal for maximized points, but how many can truly say they will rewatch any of her programs after this year?

I did take another look at that 3A after so many 'explanations' (much appreciated by the way), but sorry to say I still can't agree with the high reward. A technical program should mean one should able to do everything they set out to do, if you can not, you lose big. It is suppose to be:
BIG risk = BIG reward
But this is like
NO risk = Big reward.
The number doesn't make sense no matter what COP says. She messed out 1 of her 3 jumping elements. Falls on 3A made no difference, it is as if she got an automatic spare 4th jumping element and that is worth a 2nd 3lutz. So she get 2 x 3 lutz with a 3A + fall (as long as she rotates.) Bear in mind a 3A< is still worth approx the same as a fully rotated 3lutz in BV. (5.95 vs 6.0), so again, it shows having a 3A, there's literally no risk as long as you can get half one out and land on your butt. It is like legalised zayaking rule.

A jump should be rewarded from the moment of creative entry (if any), take off, air positions, trajectory, landing positions, flow out onto the next transitions. How can you reward something that missed half of of it and still rewarded the 2nd highest jumping element score. This is figure skating, not figure rotating or figure jumping. A bunch of girls going for broke and don't care about landing at all, and we are suppose to go 'Hurray! Did she rotate? did she rotate? She rotated!! OMG! she rotated!!!' butt on the floor, still awesome!! -3 is worth nothing, fall is nothing. It is either a failed 3A is over valued or perfectly rotated 3lutz is under valued, or some how GOE risk/reward is messed up.

I actually agree with everything here except the comment about 3A. 3A IS a big risk and Liza was penalised for it accordingly. IMO, her deductions for it was fair. (edit) Her 3A was fully rotated and she also did well in her 3Lz and 3T-3T so her TES was fair IMO (/edit)

What I don't agree with is her PCS. She scored higher than Gracie in areas where Gracie did better (or best in this particular event). *i'mlookingatyouSSandCH

I'm still befuddled at how Liza's CH scores high.

 

[hippomoomin]

I think artistry wise, Elena is better in today's performance that in other competitions this season. When she grows a little fuller, she will look gorgeous.
Looks to me Gracie lost some weight, similar to her body in the pre-Olympic nationals. She did well today, but it is a program she skated to for how many times? The question is how well she can skate to a program artistically in one season, or the first few competitions.

 

[silverlake22]

Did Gracie really say this? The Russian article didn't cite any sources. Maybe it was just a joke/journalists looking for hits. I'm sure Gracie knows she can't (and frankly, shouldn't) score 77 without 3A.


Elena has mainly been getting Level 3 all year, including at Europeans where she scored above 70. It seems like the difference was in GOE--her PCS are actually higher here. I guess the best explanation is that at Europeans her jumps--though the same/worse than WTT--still looked okay compared to early group European skaters. But here, her jumps don't really look that great? :think: (not just next to Liza and Gracie, but also compared to Zijun, Gabby, even Kanako and Ashley when they don't headcase on their 3Fs)

It might have been a joke. Or she may not have been paying attention and didn't realize what the score was. And I actually don't think Gracie was overscored today, she delivered and everything in the program was very polished. But because she did skate so well, she really did maximize her points. Maybe years down the road she can match Kostner's PCS, but not right now, she's not there yet. Plus when Kostner got 77 for her SP at Worlds last season her PCS were in the mid 9s anyways, so there truly isn't room to make up points there.

Elena's stock may have dropped a bit when she was 3rd at Worlds and only 6th in the FS. I feel like her consistency throughout the season was helping her marks get higher and higher (of course she was also delivering every time out so her TES deserved to be high), so now that she wasn't at her best at the last competition before this event, I think she she probably just didn't get the same boost to her GOE and PCS that she was getting earlier in the season when she kept going out and nailing her programs. The point difference for this SP from Worlds and Euros isn't that big anyways, no need to worry. I also felt like she was really electrifying/"on fire" in her Euros SP, so I see why that was her highest SP score of the season, she didn't quite have the same attack and energy at Worlds or here.

 

[Sugarpova]

This is her style. It's not "trying hard", her facial expressions are always dramatic (in real life too). I often call it "over the top" myself, but I don't exactly mean it. Because it's very real for her. It's her personality, and if you call her ("desperate", "OTT") style "juniorish" now, you should call it so when she's 20-something. Because, guess what, it ain't gonna change!

I'd like to add that, to me, she's not "doing it". My favorite thing about Elena is exactly that "over the top" personality, which shines so genuinely through her skating. Of course it can't be everybody's "cup of tea", but I don't like it when people suggest that her style (her personality) is considered somehow inferior pointswise, like "juniorish". In reality, it has very little to do with age.

I'm thinking exactly the opposite. There are different kind of personalities. Which is great, because it makes skating and the rest of human life much more interesting. The PCS points should reflect (a big part of it) the skaters ability to transform that personality into her skating. And I think it's visible that when Elena skates her style reflects her personality. You don't even have to know her "off the ice" personality to see that.

And this takes me to the provocative bit. To the undoubtedly gorgeous and highly talented skater called Gracie Gold. I don't understand her personality. I have doubts that her personality is not the one she's skating with.

Yes, I think her SS is great, her skating looks gorgeous, but it shouldn't be enough for her PCS to top Lena's. Especially in SP where I think Lena is more at home than in her LP/FS.

oh you read my mind!
usually I go to pour myself a cup of tea when Gracie skates I dont see anything engaging about her skating at all...polished princess.
She's like the FS verion of the cartoon 'Frozen' for me - The whole world is enamoured but leaves me colder than anything. Just skating to music...

Ashley on the other hand has the personality & great interpretation. I wish she had technical stability to go with it!

Lets hope Lena is back in full force in the free!


Great for Liza rotating & doing all other elements!

This is a sports competition, not an ice show, and i think its fair if the olympic motto applies: "Faster, Higher, Stronger.", not "Do a pretty dance"
=)

I think Liza's dance was pretty! Again "PERSONALITY" was the key here (& with Liza (& Lena) generally)!

 

[sabinfire]

oh you read my mind!
usually I go to pour myself a cup of tea when Gracie skates I dont see anything engaging about her skating at all...polished princess.
She's like the FS verion of the cartoon 'Frozen' for me - The whole world is enamoured but leaves me colder than anything. Just skating to music...

I'm sure it's all intentional, a very American-style of packaging & skating. Some people like it, some don't. I think someone once said that Gracie is basically 'Miss America on Ice', or something to that effect. For me, I just don't like the incongruity of her programs this year with her off-ice personality (or assumed personality, based on what we know). Looking forward to new programs next year.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I'm sure it's all intentional, a very American-style of packaging & skating. Some people like it, some don't. I think someone once said that Gracie is basically 'Miss America on Ice', or something to that effect. For me, I just don't like the incongruity of her programs this year with her off-ice personality (or assumed personality, based on what we know). Looking forward to new programs next year.

That's my issue as well. She has totally failed to convince me that she gives a crap about what music she is skating to this year. Either pick stuff that matches her perceived off ice personality, or do a better job off ice of selling that you actually are into the crap you are skating to.

 

[yyyskate]

Gracie certainly convinced me in her couple of great performances this season. like here and in WC long.
off-ice personality does not influence my impression of a skater's performance on ice at all. as long as the skater indeed skate to the music well.
Yuna seems very conserved off-ice, but that does not prevent her become the femme fatale bond girl.
I would say if you wanna challenge yourself and do something out of your comfort zone, go for it.
if you wanna sell what you are best at, ok too.

 

[Sandpiper]

Off-ice personality doesn't matter... if the skater is actually able to take on their on-ice persona. E.g. Yuna as a Bond girl.

I just don't buy Gracie as an ice princess. Ultimately, I see her speed, big jumps, and... can't think of anything else. And mind you, I'm not against ice princesses in general--see, Li, Zijun.

 

[moriel]

Actually both things work - one can be great in putting some mask on and playing a role when on ice, or one can just have a whatever personality and be able to present it in a cool way

 

[yyyskate]

honestly, I think Gracie's SP here at WTT is really good, besides speed and big jumps, it has everything that music demands. as many unbiased posters have discovered as well. I especially love the first half, the softer piano part. her interpretation is perfect. and I think she really loves it and it shows, she said in her interview that this SP is her fav. I think perhaps, Gracie next season can do a pure piano piece, like the first half, the kinda piano music she really loves and relates to, perhaps, she will surprise every one.
she has great extension, refinement, precision and form in her movement quality and that suit the undertone of Piano perfectly.
and her light skating skills suits piano as well.

 

[sabinfire]

honestly, I think Gracie's SP here at WTT is really good, besides speed and big jumps, it has everything that music demands. as many unbiased posters have discovered as well.

There are unbiased posters here? What other requirements are there to be free from bias, other than the necessity to love Gracie Gold's program?