2016 Finlandia Trophy Mens FS

[Jaana]

i agree but to be honest the world has passed Patrick and the scorring system does not really give him full credit comparatively to otherrs. Sadly he is doomed unless he can land 4 quads in the long. The world is in love with jumps and Boyang, Shomo,Nathan, Javier and Hanyu have it and who knows what Russian boy will show up throwing quads left in right in desperation. He may never medal again at worlds or the olympics. which is too bad because his skating - the edges are worth a quad lutz or two imho. As for the costume, well he does like simple but he is waiting to get the new costume this is last year's. Mind you I probably have stuff in my closet that would be more show/performance appropriate. One thing I think seems lost on skaters you need to think not so much up close but from the rink or a distance perspective. Some of those colors just wash people out or are hard to see on the ice. Often simple, clear cut ie as to color costumes make huge statements. Ie. Mao or Kaetln wheras Anna P. might have wored had she gone maybe with a shiny red onlly and skipped the other scraps of fabric. Even with a bit of nude illusion that would have shown up well on the ice and added to the drama.

I think the scoring system will give Chan a full credit, but he needs besides his fantastic skating skills two different quads plus a clean program to medal. I blame the judges in past who let him get away with too many faults, that´s why he is in this situation now, IMO.

 

[Plisskin]

I hate seeing a bunch of falls win a competition, quads or no. (I'll admit the 4S added on was smart and ballsy as heck though). I like his SP, but the LP is as bad as Jin's was last year. Geez. But, I like Boyang and I like Nathan, and I can see why they're doing all they can to win against the guys like Hanyu and Javier, who really are the complete package.

Still, omg, the way everyone here is freaking out and being so critical. Calm down. It's his first competition of the season, and a lot of people regardless of how many quads they're doing are kind of messes. So is Nathan.

People act like Hanyu has been a total-package-god-of-artistry since the womb. This is his first year in seniors. All men their first year in seniors are pretty bad at things that aren't jumps (aside from Shoma, to be honest). He will learn and improve and develop with time and seasoning.

Thank You. Honestly, I'm surprised to see this much criticism for this type of competition tbh. I mean, Finlandia? Lol. Most skaters are a mess doing these B competitions and usually compete here to try things out so they can go back and rework things. The Shibs highly praised Coldplay free for instance, wasn't so hot last year when they first competed it at Nepala. I'll be in the minority and say, while I worry about Nathan's health, I am happy we finally have a senior man that can compete with other top men internationally. And based on the previous competition he competed at in the U.S., he does have decent choreography in the FS. I guess many here didn't watch his FS from that competition.

 

[Dots]

What's stopping Patrick Chan from winning events is Patrick Chan.

The boy splats and pops jumps left and right. What he needs is to skate clean.

 

[skylark]

Respect for Nathan but he's basically the Boyang jin of this season with worse jumping technique: i'll root for him, but people who criticized so hard jin last season shouldn't be #teamnathan imo.

But the great thing about figure skating is that people enjoy it for different reasons, and they enjoy figure skaters according to their own personal taste.

There is no "should" or "shouldn't."

 

[da96103]

Looking at Nathan's jump layout at the Finlandia and club competition, this is what his jump layout look like

Finlandia/Club

1. 4Lz+3T/4Lz
2. 4F/4F
3. 3A/no jump
4. 4T/4T
5. 4T+2T+2Lo/3Lz+2T+2Lo
6. 4S/3Lo
7. 3F+3T/3F+3T
8. 3Lz/3Lz

So Nathan changed jump passes no. 5 and 6 to get the 4th and 5th quads.
I think the actual plan was 4T+2T+2Lo followed by 3Lo.
You guys think his choice of replacing 3Lo with 4S at jumping pass number 6 is because of his fall on jump number 4 the solo quadruple toe loop?

 

[mcq]

So Nathan changed jump passes no. 5 and 6 to get the 4th and 5th quads.
I think the actual plan was 4T+2T+2Lo followed by 3Lo.
You guys think his choice of replacing 3Lo with 4S at jumping pass number 6 is because of his fall on jump number 4 the solo quadruple toe loop?

This has been my question the entire time. Was it really a planned 5-quad program or was the 4S a YOLO jump

 

[da96103]

Thank You. Honestly, I'm surprised to see this much criticism for this type of competition tbh. I mean, Finlandia? Lol. Most skaters are a mess doing these B competitions and usually compete here to try things out so they can go back and rework things. The Shibs highly praised Coldplay free for instance, wasn't so hot last year when they first competed it at Nepala. I'll be in the minority and say, while I worry about Nathan's health, I am happy we finally have a senior man that can compete with other top men internationally. And based on the previous competition he competed at in the U.S., he does have decent choreography in the FS. I guess many here didn't watch his FS from that competition.

This is my first season following the challenger events (and I have followed skating since Arakawa won Olympic Gold) and I rather quite enjoyed it. You call it criticism, I call it healthy discussion.

 

[Plisskin]

This is my first season following the challenger events (and I have followed skating since Arakawa won Olympic Gold) and I rather quite enjoyed it. You call it criticism, I call it healthy discussion.

And that's perfectly fine that you call it that. We will agree to disagree.

 

[Skater Boy]

I think the scoring system will give Chan a full credit, but he needs besides his fantastic skating skills two different quads plus a clean program to medal. I blame the judges in past who let him get away with too many faults, that´s why he is in this situation now, IMO.

I agree in part but they have been unable the scoring system him from say even the great Hanyu or Javier - look how close pcs are relatively with Chen. Remember Carolina she spent have her time acting as a zamboni some time and her pcs were amazing always.

 

[da96103]

This has been my question the entire time. Was it really a planned 5-quad program or was the 4S a YOLO jump

It is possibly not a YOLO jump. The layout that he did at Finlandia could be the alternate layout in the event he falls on one of the first 4 quads (albeit one that he did not tell Marina he would do).

I think jump number 5 as 4T+2T+2Lo is high risked because if he falls on that 4T, even if he fully rotated it, the BV is marked as a sequence and loses a jump combo pass.

It would be safer to do 3Lz+2T+2Lo followed by 4S, but I heard 4S is a jump he is discouraged from doing.

 

[el henry]

In what universe does Jin have better spins than Nathan? Nathan has better quality of edge too. This is the first time someone has said Nathan is not artistic.

I have been saying that Nathan is not artistic since the first time I saw him skate. You may agree with me or disagree with me, but that is not a new criticism, from me or from anyone else.

I do appreciate that Nathan understands that he needs to work on artistry and performance and that is why he went to Marina. I give him major props for that. This is his first Senior B and he's not there yet. And I find it difficult to enjoy a program with falls, I don't care how many times you rotate before the fall. But that is me.

 

[noidont]

Honestly Chen's 4T fall was <, even <<. I do find it amazing that he got the 4F round though. It seems like he had drilled how to do a rotated -3 GOE 4F. While I think the strategy is sound, his jumps are not as safe looking as Boyang Jin, who gets enough height on his quads but has iffy landing issues.
No one cares about winning Finlandia. I wouldn't worry about any skater who splatted here or the scoring system yet. Judging usually corrects itself through GP season and relative PCS gets quite consistent by GPF.

 

[4everchan]

I have been away on tour for a few days and if I managed to catch the SP almost live, I am only catching up with the LPs.

For the moment, I have only watched Nathan and Patrick.

I haven't read much from the thread yet, I saw a couple comments when I was looking for links etc so I have a few things to say after reading those few comments but may come back later as I finish catching up with what's been done and what's been written about what's been done.

First of all Congrats to Nathan. It's a big deal to get a hip surgery and come back and bring so many quads in one program. WOW. Impressive. Without trying to repeat what's probably been said in the thread, here are my thoughts.

I think the COP needs some adjustment : Nathan's quads didn't have as much quality as we would hope they would, yet they score so high compared to big, beautiful triple jumps. This wasn't much of an issue when a skater would do a couple quads in a program but right now, since 5 of his 8 passes include quads, it brings up a BV too high that even if the GOE is marked down, doesn't relate to the performance and execution. I honestly would prefer seeing less falls and turnouts, even if it meant to include less quads... BUT why should he bother ? I say, keep going with 4 or 5 quads per FP if that allows you for more points, even with lesser quality. We complain that some skaters use the "planned fall" for ONE quad strategy to score more points than a double axel (i.e Rippon's quad lutz for instance) but what about that planned lower quality 5 quads program? Or did Nathan have a rough outing and can he usually land these quads with more quality? I'd be thrilled if he did rack up the points, landing 5 quads with neutral or positive GOE. At this point, the skating is a bit rough however... Though, I enjoy watching him more than Boyang.

However, the kid is young, full of potential, and I quite like him. There were a few moments in the skate where I thought his arms and back were flexible and lyrical. He has the potential to be quite expressive physically if not necessarily emotional on the ice. I also quite like his spins, except for the camel position which I find weaker.


In the end, we have to find out what we prefer, quality or quaddity. If you could chose only one, what would it be? I am ONLY talking about the jumping here... I am not talking PCS or other elements. I think a beautiful triple axel or big triple lutz excites me more than a very fast rotated smaller quad with a turn out.

Patrick :

Not a fan of the music but I think David Wilson is using it very well to showcase Patrick's strengths in joining beautiful flowing edges on the lyrical, sustained notes. It's a very different program for Patrick, very introverted as there isn't a really uplifting section to the program, at least at first glance. I think the program will grow on me during the season but I see its potential. I am happy though, that it's happening this year as I suspect it will leave some people cold and perhaps some of these people will be judges I'd prefer that Patrick doesn't take such a risk for the O Games.
Looking at its execution : Patrick thrilled me with this program... Yup, many mistakes, many points left on the table... But here we are, one month before SC and Patrick's layout is already much tougher than last year's... it wasn't executed perfectly today, but it surely indicates his progress. Let's remember that last year, at SC Patrick had one quad and one 3A. He skated a quality program from the first step to the last, landing everything perfectly and that allowed him to win in his comeback competition.

Here, Patrick succeeded one Quad, 2 gorgeous triple axels. Note that the second quad (Ur Fall) and the second 3A are featured in the bonus part.

So, already, his BV is higher than a year ago. Alao, it is clear that the 4S will replace the 3S which is just for now a placeholder.

So with today's problems (not being able to tag the 3T after the first quad, which probably put some pressure on him to land the second and tag a combo on it, which is perhaps why he indeed fell on it in the end) and later on, lacking stamina and doubling and singling jumps, we can only see how much more scoring potential there is for Patrick.

With this layout

4T-3T
3A
4S
4T *
3A-2T *
3L *
3Lz * (I think Patrick will do 3Lz-2t-2L as he has in the past or even perhaps 3Lz-1/2L-3S when he lands the 4S : he used to do the half loop combo in previous years)
3F-2T-2L * ( I think Patrick will keep the flip as a solo jump at the end, but since he put a hand down on the lutz here, he did do a combo here...)

Patrick would be quite competitive indeed, considering his ability, when on, to land jumps with great quality.


for the people complaining on these two guys' costumes.. oh come on... it's clear that the ones used today are placeholders... a bit of patience goes a long way you know, it avoids negative posts

 

[Ophelia]

Patrick's new Lp is EXQUISITE. What an aritistic dream.

His skating is completely holding up the introspective piece.

 

[Violet Bliss]

:agree: to 4everchan's insightful thoughts on Nathan's and Patrick's programs and performances.

:2thumbs: to the new figure skating lingo quaddity and the quality vs quaddity question.

 

[4everchan]

HAHA and I thought I should edit my post and make it with only one D but the two D's suit the word actually... like ODDITY

:agree: to 4everchan's insightful thoughts on Nathan's and Patrick's programs and performances.

:2thumbs: to the new figure skating lingo quaddity and the quality vs quaddity question.

 

[silverfoxes]

for the people complaining on these two guys' costumes.. oh come on... it's clear that the ones used today are placeholders... a bit of patience goes a long way you know, it avoids negative posts

Patrick's was a placeholder. Fine. Nathan & Daniel were literally in practice clothes. Maybe that's fine for a small non-ISU or club competition, but Finlandia is a well established international senior B. Aesthetics do matter, and if I were a judge I would not be too happy about it. As a fan, I don't think it looks good either and I believe it also affects the mentality of the skater, if only subconsciously. It's like going to a job interview in sweatpants. Nathan wasn't selling that FS at all and it takes away from great pieces of music like Le Corsaire and Polovtsian Dances when you wear casual sportswear. Men should have no excuses - some of them favor costumes that look like they came from the Kohls clearance rack anyway, but even that is better than nothing.

 

[Meoima]

So far the scores in senior B are like this:

1 260.57 Yuzuru HANYU JPN ISU CS Autumn Classic International 2016 30.09.2016
2 258.93 Shoma UNO JPN ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2016 11.09.2016
3 256.49 Jason BROWN USA ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2016 11.09.2016
4 256.44 Nathan Chen USA ISU CS Finlandia Trophy 2016 09.10.2016
5 252.20 Takahito MURA JPN ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic 2016 16.09.2016

Everyone is getting low score in 250-260 due to early season. But the skaters with higher BV have higher scoring potential.

 

[4everchan]

Patrick's was a placeholder. Fine. Nathan & Daniel were literally in practice clothes. Maybe that's fine for a small non-ISU or club competition, but Finlandia is a well established international senior B. Aesthetics do matter, and if I were a judge I would not be too happy about it. As a fan, I don't think it looks good either and I believe it also affects the mentality of the skater, if only subconsciously. It's like going to a job interview in sweatpants. Nathan wasn't selling that FS at all and it takes away from great pieces of music like Le Corsaire and Polovtsian Dances when you wear casual sportswear. Men should have no excuses - some of them favor costumes that look like they came from the Kohls clearance rack anyway, but even that is better than nothing.

the skating /choreo took away from the music... not necessarily the outfit.

Patrick's costume was quite low-profile last season and thus, very adaptable. Perhaps the other boys didn't have something that could translate easily to their new programs? These kids are young and probably their bodies are changing too... I wouldn't expect from them to spend tons of money on costumes they will wear only once or twice. It's best that they get their act together for Grand Prix events.

If the ISU wants to regulate what is acceptable or not, they can and they have done so... but even then, they don't always apply it... I am not going to complain about guys wearing tights... but aren't those illegal ? I have never seen Max getting a deduction for his pants

 

[Yatagarasu]

I have never seen Max getting a deduction for his pants

He should get a deduction for those man-boobs. They're so distracting