2016 Finlandia Trophy Mens FS

[theskatingbutterfly]

So, someone wins nationals with one underrotated quad and everyone is fuming saying he shouldn't have won and how terrible of the judges to give it to him.. and then a skater with not much of a program but 5 quads also has everyone fuming, saying he doesn't deserve to win.

Calm down people! I think both the skaters contribute to different aspects of skating and should be commended for what they did. I understand in both cases why each won, and I understand also why people are upset but come on people, stop talking out of both sides of your mouth! Both skaters have lots to give and if Nathan stays healthy he has an incredibly bright future. He is just doing what he does best right now - jump!

Adam is a fantastic artist and spinner with great skating skills. He uses that to his advantage.
Nathan is a jumping bean and he uses that to his advantage. I think they both know what they're doing.

 

[Rissa]

Looking at Nathan's jump layout at the Finlandia and club competition, this is what his jump layout look like

Finlandia/Club

1. 4Lz+3T/4Lz
2. 4F/4F
3. 3A/no jump
4. 4T/4T
5. 4T+2T+2Lo/3Lz+2T+2Lo
6. 4S/3Lo
7. 3F+3T/3F+3T
8. 3Lz/3Lz

So Nathan changed jump passes no. 5 and 6 to get the 4th and 5th quads.
I think the actual plan was 4T+2T+2Lo followed by 3Lo.

Looking at the layout, it's crazy indeed.

I'm thinking about the post-Olympic change in Men's free which will cut one jumping pass out. I thought that on one hand the reduced scoring potential will balance the TES and PSC better, on the other, it will rise the importance of quads. However, now I'm not so sure of the latter. If done cleanly with good quality then yes, of course. But if done like in Nathan's program? A fallen quad is about the same worth as a well-done triple. And if you do a 5-quad program like Nathan you will only have 2 jumping passes to earn points it with better-executed triples. The guys with lower number of quads will cut out their double axels and get better PCS... :think: This change might actually lead to fairer scoring and perhaps better-balanced programs.

 

[Raomina]

Based just on the elements layout and from what I've seen of the skaters before, I thought the scoring was fine even before watching the top 2 programs. After I watched the programs, it's even clearer. If you just look at the scores in isolation, Nathan's program scoring 168.94 with 5 quads and 2 falls is not outrageously high. It wouldn't even have made top 8 at Worlds last year. In contrast, Patrick had a 2 quad program with 1 fall, missed combo on his 4T, popped a few jumps and scored 164.14, just barely below Nathan's. PCS should not be overshadowed by TES, but it shouldn't cover up that great of a technical deficiency either such that Patrick should have the highest total score just because it's what 'skating should be'. I think the system rewarded him just fine for what he put out on the ice today, which was nowhere near perfect either, even for the much simpler layout. They both deserved the scores they got.

 

[xibsuarz]

So far I've only had the chance to watch Nathan and Patrick. I have to say I really liked Patrick's program (aside from his skating itself). It doesn't build up the way other skater's programs would, but there's also beauty in that sort of program. And I really liked the music (well done Eric!), I'm just hoping he won't use his Chopin costume. It's a shame the jumps were not there, but I hope he can have a better performance at the GPs, as neither of his events will be that easy.
Nathan well...idk what to say. Yes, he is sacrificing a lot of his program for the quads, but I get it, it's the best way for the judges to notice him and to put himself in medal contention, and we know high TES carries over to PCS (though it shouldn't, that's how it is). My main issue was the quality of them, the program is already lacking thanks to the crossovers and setups, and if there's no clean quad, then there's no payoff (in the performance at least, because there is a reward in the score). But it's not like he will continuously mess them up throughout the season. At a technical level, what he did was outstanding, but the artistry wasn't there yet, obviously. And was that last quad was really improvised? That's is seriously impressive.
But I'm concerned about his injuries, since he is so prone to them. Wasn't the 4S bad for his hip? I think that health should be a priority for him, since injuries have proven to be a significant obstacle in his career. Well, I'll wait and see how Raphael, Marina and him work out his programs.
Off to watch the rest of the men

 

[cheerknithanson]

I came back from the Washington Nationals game (GO NATS!) and I just now saw the protocol. 5 QUADS FOR NATHAN?! HOLY COW.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Based just on the elements layout and from what I've seen of the skaters before, I thought the scoring was fine even before watching the top 2 programs. After I watched the programs, it's even clearer. If you just look at the scores in isolation, Nathan's program scoring 168.94 with 5 quads and 2 falls is not outrageously high. It wouldn't even have made top 8 at Worlds last year. In contrast, Patrick had a 2 quad program with 1 fall, missed combo on his 4T, popped a few jumps and scored 164.14, just barely below Nathan's. PCS should not be overshadowed by TES, but it shouldn't cover up that great of a technical deficiency either such that Patrick should have the highest total score just because it's what 'skating should be'. I think the system rewarded him just fine for what he put out on the ice today, which was nowhere near perfect either, even for the much simpler layout. They both deserved the scores they got.

Patrick earned his TES. Though he had a lower BV, he did most of his elements with higher level and higher quality, earning positive GOEs. Nathan had a much higher BV, thanks to rotated quads, but he received negative GOEs which, together with the 2 fall deductions, took close to 10 points off his BV whereas Patrick added about 4.5 points after his fall deduction. Negative GOEs indicate technical deficiencies as well so the technical levels compared are not as wide apart as the BV seemed to indicate.

GOEs do play an important role in the final TES and TSS. Patrick was definitely not overmarked in PCS relative to Nathan. I see no danger at all of PCS covering up technical deficiencies to take the win.

 

[Blades of Passion]

BRAVO to Patrick Chan!!! This is his best Long Program in a long, long time (since 2009). Maybe his best ever. I got tears after the second Triple Axel, that moment of music with the movement is what transcendent skating is all about. I can't believe he actually did choreographic toe pushes too; usually that would be "beneath" him or whatever. But it works so well.

Nathan Chen....the quads that he fell on were underrotated from what I can see. He has that spinny toepick takeoff on his toeloop. Not as bad as a Kevin Reynolds kind of technique, but still a bit of a cheat. Anyway, the scoring system gives way too many points for flawed jumps (he still would have won if both of those Quads received underrotation calls, although he would have lost the LP and it would have been close overall). He should not have won here. But, he's a very talented skater.

The system is not right that Patrick's ChSq and Nathan's are worth the same measly 2 pts BV.

It's fine really, because the element is essentially an extension of the PCS. The judges just need to score the GOE's on this element better. So many skaters deserve a 0 GOE for it.

 

[Raomina]

Patrick earned his TES. Though he had a lower BV, he did most of his elements with higher level and higher quality, earning positive GOEs. Nathan had a much higher BV, thanks to rotated quads, but he received negative GOEs which, together with the 2 fall deductions, took close to 10 points off his BV whereas Patrick added about 4.5 points after his fall deduction. Negative GOEs indicate technical deficiencies as well so the technical levels compared are not as wide apart as the BV seemed to indicate.

GOEs do play an important role in the final TES and TSS. Patrick was definitely not overmarked in PCS relative to Nathan. I see no danger at all of PCS covering up technical deficiencies to take the win.

I think you misunderstood my post. I didn't say that Patrick didn't earn his TES or that he was over marked in his PCS. Both were scored how they should be and the total score ended up with him not winning, because Nathan scored higher.

 

[Violet Bliss]

I think you misunderstood my post. I didn't say that Patrick didn't earn his TES or that he was over marked in his PCS. Both were scored how they should be and the total score ended up with him not winning, because Nathan scored higher.

I was responding to your statement that

PCS should not be overshadowed by TES, but it shouldn't cover up that great of a technical deficiency either such that Patrick should have the highest total score just because it's what 'skating should be'.

Firstly, the technical deficiency was not as great it seemed apparently and there are other elements besides jumps. Quality of high BV jumps is important too besides having them listed. How much does Rippon's 4Lz usually earn him, or Takahashi's 4T for most of his career?

Secondly, and this is what I thought immediately after submitting the last post, why shouldn't great skating skills, choreography and performance win over a quad filled program? Are quads automatically mean better skating? Quads are very difficult, risky and exciting and should be rewarded. They are highlights in a program but when they take over the program which then becomes empty aside from the jumps, is it still better skating that is more deserving to win? I see no danger of PCS winning a competition from this most recent example but I question why it's a risk to be avoided, as a flaw to the sport if PCS wins the competition?

 

[Raomina]

I was responding to your statement that
Firstly, the technical deficiency was not as great it seemed apparently and there are other elements besides jumps. Quality of high BV jumps is important too besides having them listed. How much does Rippon's 4Lz usually earn him, or Takahashi's 4T for most of his career?

Secondly, and this is what I thought immediately after submitting the last post, why shouldn't great skating skills, choreography and performance win over a quad filled program? Are quads automatically mean better skating? Quads are very difficult, risky and exciting and should be rewarded. They are highlights in a program but when they take over the program which then becomes empty aside from the jumps, is it still better skating that is more deserving to win? I see no danger of PCS winning a competition from this most recent example but I question why it's a risk to be avoided, as a flaw to the sport if PCS wins the competition?

The total BV for the 2 men are 104.45 vs 71.62, which includes everything aside from the jumps as well. After GOEs are taken into account, the TESs are 96.08 vs 77.06. That is an almost 20 point difference. If the PCS was 20 points higher, then the total score would be higher and I'm fine with that.

In this case, I'm not sure if the skates warranted a 20 points difference in PCS and that's how the judges scored them, so that's how it turned out. Perhaps Nathan could've scored lower in PCS but he's honestly not that bad. There was just too much technical difference to be made up from with the PCS. It's a points game after all.

And to clarify, this is just in response to comments like 'so and so should have won' based solely on PCS without taking into account that it's the sum total of TES and PCS at the end of the day. People are judging it as if this is still the 6.0 system and skates can be judged by which one looks better or is liked better but it is not. Also, for this competition, I think Patrick lost it more than Nathan won it, because of the mistakes he himself did. One doesn't just 'deserve to win'. They still have to perform. He could've won it easily himself if he didn't pop anything.

 

[sunnystars]

I think Patrick's LP will be my favorite program this season. The music is lovely and he's lovely. Well other than the jumps...but eh I'll take what I can get for now.

I would love for Radford to create his program music for the Olympic season.

 

[Violet Bliss]

The total BV for the 2 men are 104.45 vs 71.62, which includes everything aside from the jumps as well. After GOEs are taken into account, the TESs are 96.08 vs 77.06. That is an almost 20 point difference. If the PCS was 20 points higher, then the total score would be higher and I'm fine with that.

In this case, I'm not sure if the skates warranted a 20 points difference in PCS and that's how the judges scored them, so that's how it turned out. Perhaps Nathan could've scored lower in PCS but he's honestly not that bad. There was just too much technical difference to be made up from with the PCS. It's a points game after all.

And to clarify, this is just in response to comments like 'so and so should have won' based solely on PCS without taking into account that it's the sum total of TES and PCS at the end of the day. People are judging it as if this is still the 6.0 system and skates can be judged by which one looks better or is liked better but it is not. Also, for this competition, I think Patrick lost it more than Nathan won it, because of the mistakes he himself did. One doesn't just 'deserve to win'. They still have to perform. He could've won it easily himself if he didn't pop anything.

With the cap on PCS, these days it's TES that wins competitions. Moreover, high TES earns PCS bonus but high PCS does not earn TES bonus. Thus the total BV of a program plays the largest role for highest placements.

Aside from voicing that Patrick's SP PCS was probably underscored relative to others so far in the season, I have not argued the scores in general or the placements. As for the LP, I said in my earlier post that with the loss in Patrick's BV, the BV gap was too wide to be filled with GOE and PCS. However, Patrick is in the process of raising his BV and upping his TES. With the current content of his LP, the actual BV gap with that of a 5 Quad program is not 20 points if he gets on track and does not miss any element. And then there is a 4S to be added to the LP with the possibility of including 2 quads in the SP, either this season or next. IOW, per today's scheme for highest possible TSS, he has much more to add to his TES while those who already maxed out their TES don't have as much room for increasing their PCS.

Patrick would not exceed this total 5 quad limit out of principle but having them would make him extremely competitive again. If he doesn't win with such programs because of exceedingly high BV and good performances from his rival(s), there is nothing to be sorry about because he would have achieved his objective, and a supreme feat, of great artistry with high technical difficulty. As a fan, I can only be happy for him and for myself.

 

[Raomina]

Aside from voicing that Patrick's SP PCS was probably underscored relative to others so far in the season, I have not argue the scores in general or the placements. As for the LP, I said in my earlier post that the loss in Patrick's BV, the BV gap was too wide to be filled with GOE and PCS. However, Patrick is in the process of raising his BV and upping his TES. With the current content of his LP, the actual BV gap with that of a 5 Quad program is not 20 points if he gets on track and does not miss any element. Then then is a 4S to be added to the LP with the possibility of including 2 quads in the SP, either this season or next. IOW, per today's scheme for competitiveness, he has much more to add to his TES while those who already maxed out their TES don't have as much room for increasing their PCS.

Patrick would not exceed this total 5 quad limit out of principle but having them would make him extremely competitive again. If he doesn't win with such programs because of exceedingly high BV and good performances from his rival(s), there is nothing to be sorry about because he would have achieved his objective, and a supreme feat, of great artistry with high technical difficulty. As a fan, I can only be happy for him and for myself.

I totally agree with everything you said here! Like I said, my post was not directed at you in particular and I'm not arguing that Patrick will never beat Nathan due to BV. I'm only talking about the TES and PCS difference in this particular competition, which resulted in the final scores and rankings. I'm sure that a clean Patrick with his planned layout would beat Nathan even with Nathan's high BV because of the lack of quality in his elements, resulting in lower GOEs, and also through PCS. We've seen this before in 4CC, and that suggests that the system is not as broken as it appears if he just performs.

With the cap on PCS, these days it's TES that wins competitions. Moreover, high TES earns PCS bonus but high PCS does not earn TES bonus. Thus the total BV of a program plays the largest role for highest placements.

I agree that there seems to be a PCS boost with high TES and that the cap means that there is only so much PCS one can get, but if we look at who are at the top of the podiums of major competitions, they are still skaters who combine both high TES and PCS. It is only those who either do not have definite high TES or high PCS that are fighting for the remaining spots and have more varied rankings between each other because it's hard to concretely say which one is worth more and different judges value different things as well. Judges are subjective and you have to give them no doubt to score you the way they should.

 

[MaxSwagg]

With the cap on PCS, these days it's TES that wins competitions. Moreover, high TES earns PCS bonus but high PCS does not earn TES bonus. Thus the total BV of a program plays the largest role for highest placements.

Aside from voicing that Patrick's SP PCS was probably underscored relative to others so far in the season, I have not argued the scores in general or the placements. As for the LP, I said in my earlier post that with the loss in Patrick's BV, the BV gap was too wide to be filled with GOE and PCS. However, Patrick is in the process of raising his BV and upping his TES. With the current content of his LP, the actual BV gap with that of a 5 Quad program is not 20 points if he gets on track and does not miss any element. And then there is a 4S to be added to the LP with the possibility of including 2 quads in the SP, either this season or next. IOW, per today's scheme for highest possible TSS, he has much more to add to his TES while those who already maxed out their TES don't have as much room for increasing their PCS.

Patrick would not exceed this total 5 quad limit out of principle but having them would make him extremely competitive again. If he doesn't win with such programs because of exceedingly high BV and good performances from his rival(s), there is nothing to be sorry about because he would have achieved his objective, and a supreme feat, of great artistry with high technical difficulty. As a fan, I can only be happy for him and for myself.

I'm sorry but this is just not true. People like to spew this "myth" that TES is a MUCH larger part of the score compared to PCS. It is not. Even with Hanyu and Fernandez, PCS and TES is pretty balanced. Why should Hanyu and Fernandez be punished and stymied from executing high-quality programs WITH high-quality skating WITH high-quality technical elements just because other cannot. That's not fair towards them. Maybe if Patrick would not botch SPs or 3As (which have been a basic requirement for men at the top for over two decades now) he would win. He should've have easily won this competition. When it comes to later competitions, Hanyu and Fernandez - who are equal with Patrick in PCS as much as his fans hate to admit it - won't be as forgiving...

 

[4everchan]

I'm sorry but this is just not true. People like to spew this "myth" that TES is a MUCH larger part of the score compared to PCS. It is not. Even with Hanyu and Fernandez, PCS and TES is pretty balanced. Why should Hanyu and Fernandez be punished and stymied from executing high-quality programs WITH high-quality skating WITH high-quality technical elements just because other cannot. That's not fair towards them. Maybe if Patrick would not botch SPs or 3As (which have been a basic requirement for men at the top for over two decades now) he would win. He should've have easily won this competition. When it comes to later competitions, Hanyu and Fernandez - who are equal with Patrick in PCS as much as his fans hate to admit it - won't be as forgiving...

FYI, Patrick landed both 3A superbly in the FP.

Second point : Hanyu and Fernandez wouldn't be penalized if they are all around skaters as mentioned. They actually would get higher scores than they already have.

So what are you trying to say?

 

[Violet Bliss]

I'm sorry but this is just not true. People like to spew this "myth" that TES is a MUCH larger part of the score compared to PCS. It is not. Even with Hanyu and Fernandez, PCS and TES is pretty balanced. Why should Hanyu and Fernandez be punished and stymied from executing high-quality programs WITH high-quality skating WITH high-quality technical elements just because other cannot. That's not fair towards them. Maybe if Patrick would not botch SPs or 3As (which have been a basic requirement for men at the top for over two decades now) he would win. He should've have easily won this competition. When it comes to later competitions, Hanyu and Fernandez - who are equal with Patrick in PCS as much as his fans hate to admit it - won't be as forgiving...

#1. Which major title has been won lately without TES being higher than PCS, in fact with TES over the limit for PCS?

#2. What was Patrick forgiven for at this competition?

 

[MaxSwagg]

FYI, Patrick landed both 3A superbly in the FP.

Second point : Hanyu and Fernandez wouldn't be penalized if they are all around skaters as mentioned. They actually would get higher scores than they already have.

So what are you trying to say?

Refresh your memory with the protocols. The SP was another story. You can't botch a SP, especially with todays standards, and win when you're already substantially behind in the FS. My point is that people are whining because some can't do the required difficulty to win, so they want said difficulty to be barred.

 

[MaxSwagg]

#1. Which major title have been won lately without TES being higher than PCS, in fact with TES over the limit for PCS?

#2. What was Patrick forgiven at this competition?

You should revise #1 with "significantly higher". Something like 54% TES vs 46% PCS isn't significant...

 

[Violet Bliss]

You should revise #1 with "significantly higher". Something like 54% TES vs 46% PCS isn't significant...

You should revise your myth with fact.

 

[4everchan]

i wouldn't say 4 points behind is so substantial. I am not whining about doing or not doing the difficulty. I am pointing out that there is a difference between doing the elements with quality or not. In this event, as much as I cheer for Nathan, he botched 5 of his 8 jumping passes. How is that supposed to earn any title? and this is not the first time it happens.

Refresh your memory with the protocols. The SP was another story. You can't botch a SP, especially with todays standards, and win when you're already substantially behind in the FS. My point is that people are whining because some can't do the required difficulty to win, so they want said difficulty to be barred.