2016 Rostelecom Cup Ladies FS

[Skater Boy]

so now whenever skaters refuse to stop because of injuries, we blame Hanyu? I mean there have been many cases in which top atheles do not stop even when they're in bandage. This thing all comes down to if the judges/coaches have the absolute power to stop atheles from competing when they're in bad shape or not.

No, I am sorry that is not what I meant. Gee I hope this is not an uber Hanyu situation. I meant both Yulia and Hanyu and well everyone all skaters need to be careful.I know it is hard with adrenline, desire to win or go to the GP Final and in the case of Yulia probably issues with sponsors, state funding and all. I am just saying skaters who are of course thinking in the moment need to think of the long term effects- future injury, reputation and even what message is this sending to the public. We need to get out of the mindset dramaticcomebacks or playing through pain or whatever makes you a hero or shows courage. Often it shows courage to know when to stop. its like people who say they love their pet so much that they don't want to euthanize it. But the more loving thing might be to euthanize it out of its misery. It's a mind set and I clearly said itis not blaming anyone including Hanyu. I am sorry, I know that there are uber's with certain skaters please don't take offence. It's actually a bit scarey like we will get hurt or beaten for trying to communicate something where we are not trying to say something bad about another skater but somehow we know some "uber fan " will attack.

 

[chuckm]

Nothing is fair when SS and choreo and performance doesn't matter and Zijun gets the same PCs as Courtney. Zijun should have gotten more than 1,5 points of PCS more than Courtney if we're talking about fairness. Then she would have been third instead. I'm not saying that Courtney didn't have a good performance, which she did. But her PCS didn't deserve to be the same as Zijuns. Plus Zijun's sp score should have been higher and closer to Yulia.

OTOH, it could be argued that Courtney should have been ahead of Zijun in the SP. Zijun did 3t+3t, 3f, 2a, while Courtney did 3f+3t, 3lo, 2a----Courtney had the higher TES and Zijun the higher PCS, so their final marks were very close.
Elizabet was ahead of both Courtney and Zijun and Yulia was WAY ahead of all three.

What hurt Zijun in the FS was her lack of speed and stamina, which led to the doubled lutz and URs towards the end of the program. Courtney's FS was almost completely clean, and she delivered it with even speed throughout.

 

[Eclair]

OTOH, it could be argued that Courtney should have been ahead of Zijun in the SP. Zijun did 3t+3t, 3f, 2a, while Courtney did 3f+3t, 3lo, 2a----Courtney had the higher TES and Zijun the higher PCS, so their final marks were very close.
Elizabet was ahead of both Courtney and Zijun and Yulia was WAY ahead of all three.

What hurt Zijun in the FS was her lack of speed and stamina, which led to the doubled lutz and URs towards the end of the program. Courtney's FS was almost completely clean, and she delivered it with even speed throughout.

you can't just disregard SS and choreo as you wish. Saying Courtney jumped well doesn't mean her PCS should have been the same as Zijuns. Or else Max Aaron who is pretty fast with his hockey crossovers should get the same PCs as Adam, who is slower but has better SS, choreo and lines.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I am sorry, I know that there are uber's with certain skaters please don't take offence. It's actually a bit scarey like we will get hurt or beaten for trying to communicate something where we are not trying to say something bad about another skater but somehow we know some "uber fan " will attack.

Meoima didn't say anything close to an attack. This 'the bad Hanyu ubers are forbidding me to talk' shtick is getting old. Maybe it's not 'the bad ubers', maybe it's really just what you posted that's weird.

 

[Mrs. P]

you can't just disregard SS and choreo as you wish. Saying Courtney jumped well doesn't mean her PCS should have been the same as Zijuns. Or else Max Aaron who is pretty fast with his hockey crossovers should get the same PCs as Adam, who is slower but has better SS, choreo and lines.

Courtney actually has very good skating skills. If you look at her feet, her blades are usually not on a flat -- that's a good indicator of solid SS. She actually manages to go one side of the rink to the other with few crossovers, another sign of good SS.

It's something people underestimate from her because she isn't as polished and graceful as other ladies. Also line =/= good skating skills.

And the choreo is pretty decent actually. Again, criticize the lack of polish and lack of control, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have good choreo. She had some cool transitions in and out of the different elements.

Also Adam is not a really great example of someone with superb skating skills, IMO. There's been plenty of argument here that Adam is a bit overscored in SS.

 

[solani]

I'm team Courtney, I think she deserved that medal. She's different, really powerful and I enjoy that. Always seeing the same types of skaters can get boring. And those dark programs are a great choice for her. Not that I don't like Zijun, I do, but she didn't deserve to beat Courtney yesterday imho.

 

[Eclair]

Courtney actually has very good skating skills. If you look at her feet, her blades are usually not on a flat -- that's a good indicator of solid SS. She actually manages to go one side of the rink to the other with few crossovers, another sign of good SS.

It's something people underestimate from her because she isn't as polished and graceful as other ladies. Also line =/= good skating skills.

And the choreo is pretty decent actually. Again, criticize the lack of polish and lack of control, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have good choreo. She had some cool transitions in and out of the different elements.

Also Adam is not a really great example of someone with superb skating skills, IMO. There's been plenty of argument here that Adam is a bit overscored in SS.

I deliberately did not take Patrick as an example because Zijun is no Carolina Kostner either. And Max's SS are not sooo bad either. But they are worse than Adams, same as Courtney's are worse than Zijun's. The same goes choreo wise. I'm not saying and never said Courtney's choreo was awful, I think it was OK. But Zijun's choreo was detailed and sophisticated. And it's not like Zijun had a splatfest either. All I say is,Zijun deserved more than 0,7 points in PCs compared to Courtney, which would have given her the podium finish.

 

[Ophelia]

Zijung Li's skating is so elegant and beautiful. A bit reminiscent of Yuna Kim.

 

[qwertyskates]

Zijung Li's skating is so elegant and beautiful. A bit reminiscent of Yuna Kim.

Her jumps too, reminded me of Yuna, not powerful but strong with good distance. If the music is switched off, you can actually see that she skated at a really good speed. She is not a powerful skater, but she MOVES and there were many many details in her FS. I agree with most commentators who thought she deserves higher...Eurosport said "Are we looking at the same skate?" when her scores were up..

What exactly is making posters think she lacked speed and stamina? Commentators didn't, neither did I.

 

[miki88]

Her jumps too, reminded me of Yuna, not powerful but strong with good distance. If the music is switched off, you can actually see that she skated at a really good speed. She is not a powerful skater, but she MOVES and there were many many details in her FS. I agree with most commentators who thought she deserves higher...Eurosport said "Are we looking at the same skate?" when her scores were up..

Seriously? Zijun has a lot of good qualities but speed and stamina are not her strengths. She always looks like she runs out of energy in the 2nd half of her long program, which was something Hanyu suffered from earlier in his career, but he seemed to have improved his stamina issue a lot. I was really impressed with her program to the Up soundtrack, but unfortunately she has not yet fulfilled the potential I saw from that program.

 

[qwertyskates]

3 moments I teared up

a
2. Zi Jun, what a risk and brave choice to pick this music, that a)No one heard of outside China b) None European language, c) Fight through stamina and much improved. I actually liked the final pose which is the traditional way of salute to the emperor in the royal court. I am surprised people think there's no crescendo in the music, in my humble opinion, there's too much.... the whole piece of music is one crescendo after another like never ending tidal waves. May be the lack of downtime and change of pacing hurt it, but it is what it is. A worse choice is doing another Turandot / war horse emotional music, that has become a cliche in this sport. The problem perhaps has to do with too much 'emotion fatigue' in the music for an LP. The music may work better as an SP (edited for step sequence). Choice of music can become a cultural battle/barrier, but it shouldn't be up to viewers personal preferences, rather it should be about whether the skaters is successful in express the music intention as authentic and original to be judged. (Remember Sochi arena audience go wild for a Russian classical, but silent for everything else, that is just so wrong!). This piece music should be no lesser than the final scene of Madam Butterfly in theory. I personally applaud anyone who doesn't need a Turandot, Swan lake - tried and tested emotional built-in war horse to 'help' or 'make up' the lack of emotion in their skating (e.g Max Aaron with Swan Lake/Turandot - cries desperation. These choices should imply -5 PCS automatically UNLESS you are truly able to deliver what you setout to do). Unfortunately often judges don't think that way, they like familiarity so they know what to expect.

Zijun is really unlucky here not to come away with a medal, but she had no momentum coming in, and sometimes among the 2nd tier skaters, it is a bit of a rumble. Really underscored here, but by Cup of China, hopefully, this should change... the program can go down a storm with the right audience. I do hope this bring her more confidence and even spit fire/hunger to wanting to prove the judges and herself she is a contender. The thing is she is really exceptional at what she is best at, lots of areas to improve but getting there.

Like they say the Test of the Pudding is in the Tasting.

You might be tired of Turandot but MANY SKATERS won countless Olympic, World and GP medals with it, (just off the top of my head) Shizuka Arakawa, the Pairs skaters Zhao/Shen, Shoma's last year and Lena beat Zijun for a Silver in this very same competition with a very flawed Turandot, so it's what the Judges and general audiences prefer that matter.

Yuzu took a huge risk with Seimei but Seimei is a very complex composition with different tempo, cadences, etc., similar to the warhorses in offering diverse accents for Yuzu to perform to, and it was a smash.

Again, test of the pudding says this music at best didn't help Zijun with PCS.

 

[qwertyskates]

Seriously? Zijun has a lot of good qualities but speed and stamina are not her strengths. She always looks like she runs out of energy in the 2nd half of her long program, which was something Hanyu suffered from earlier in his career, but he seemed to have improved his stamina issue a lot. I was really impressed with her program to the Up soundtrack, but unfortunately she has not yet fulfilled the potential I saw from that program.

In the past but not at this COR, even the Euro commentators who used to remark on her lack of stamina in the past didn't mention it, but instead praised her for a really good skate that deserves higher scores.

 

[OS]

Like they say the Test of the Pudding is in the Tasting.

You might be tired of Turandot but MANY SKATERS won countless Olympic, World and GP medals with it, (just off the top of my head) Shizuka Arakawa, the Pairs skaters Zhao/Shen, Shoma's last year and Lena beat Zijun for a Silver in this very same competition with a very flawed Turandot, so it's what the Judges and general audiences prefer that matter.

Yuzu took a huge risk with Seimei but Seimei is a very complex composition with different tempo, cadences, etc., similar to the warhorses in offering diverse accents for Yuzu to perform to, and it was a smash.

Again, test of the pudding says this music at best didn't help Zijun with PCS.

Do you really think and truly believe had Zijun skated to Carmen and Turandot, her PCS would have made a difference? May be you are more optimistic than I lol...

The most delicious pudding wouldn't made any difference if they just want Russian goulash extra rare....

 

[qwertyskates]

Do you really think and truly believe had Zijun skated to Carmen and Turandot, her PCS would have made a difference? May be you are more optimistic than I lol...

You're clearly not her fan since you are LOL and aren't optimistic that she is capable of higher PCS.

I'm comfortable in my position of optimism for Zijun, I'd say I'm in good company with commentators who raved about this skate and were shocked at her scores.

It seems you haven't noticed the delicious Golden Turandot puddings were served at the Olympics, at Worlds, at many GPs.

 

[OS]

You're clearly not her fan since you are LOL and aren't optimistic that she is capable of higher PCS.

I'm comfortable in my position of optimism for Zijun, I'd say I'm in good company with commentators who raved about this skate and were shocked at her scores.

It seems you haven't noticed the delicious Golden Turandot puddings were served at the Olympics, at Worlds, at many GPs.

I just prefer her not to be a sell out for points she is never going to get and lose her way in her own artistic pursuit. I really like this year's programs, she seems to take control and created some original programs that were unlike the ones she did before or predictable. She even took care of her coaching situations. If Mirai and Gracie could do the same... they'd make much more interesting skaters today and may even improve their results. Independent thinking is a precious thing... it is en route to originality and creativity.

I loled at many things... it is nice to laugh Clearly not a fan? Check her out her fan thread, I created it

 

[qwertyskates]

I just prefer her not to be a sell out for points she is never going to get and lose her way in her own artistic persuit. I really like this year's programs, she seems to take control and create some original programs that was unlike years she did before. Including her coaching situations.

I loled at many things... it is nice to laugh Clearly not a fan? Check her out her fan thread, I created it

Sorry, my bad... That's super of you to be her supporter.:agree: I actually really started to look at her differently at this COR...seeing shades of Yuna was very exciting. I could tell she worked HARD on herself, she's lean, mean, clean and her strength and speed came back. She did it without a coach, that's even more commendable. I'd love for her to take the "Seimei" type of risks, Tan Dun has a lot of great pieces, I think Russian Pairs and Patrick skated to them before.

Her SP though, was just perfect, and again Yuna shivers....:luv17:

 

[chuckm]

If you look at the protocol, you can see that all of Zijun's technical mistakes (the doubled lutz, the URs) were in the second half of her FS, because she was tiring. Zijun has been known for her lack of speed and stamina throughout her career. Many of her fans were hoping that this had changed, but apparently it has not. She is a lovely young woman and very graceful, and if working with Mishin can help her to overcome her speed/stamina issues, she could easily become a top-tier skater.

 

[miki88]

You're clearly not her fan since you are LOL and aren't optimistic that she is capable of higher PCS.

I usually don't agree with OS, but she's definitely one of Li's biggest fans on this forum. I don't think the music choice makes that much of a difference. She's not getting higher PCS because of a lack of federation support and because of her own track record. The federation is less likely to support her if she isn't bringing in medals. They have given support to Jin in recent years, and Li was more well-known before he broke out into the scene. This is unfortunate since she did have the potential to become the next Lu Chen. It's possible that she can still have that breakout season fans have been waiting for all these years. I'm not sure Mishin is the best coach for her though.

This is still my favorite program of hers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IMY0yeYZLA

 

[Eclair]

I usually don't agree with OS, but she's definitely one of Li's biggest fans on this forum. I don't think the music choice makes that much of a difference. She's not getting higher PCS because of a lack of federation support and because of her own track record. The federation is less likely to support her if she isn't bringing in medals. They have given support to Jin in recent years, and Li was more well-known before he broke out into the scene. This is unfortunate since she did have the potential to become the next Lu Chen. It's possible that she can still have that breakout season fans have been waiting for all these years. I'm not sure Mishin is the best coach for her though.

This is still my favorite program of hers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IMY0yeYZLA

I would like to clear up that rumor that Mishin is be Zijun's coach - there's no reliable source saying so. Yes, Mishin gave her some tips here and there at the open practices at CoR, but he didn't coach her prior to that. Zijun wrote, that she left china 2 days before the start of CoR. She's been getting tips from Mishin for only the last couple of days. That's not going to make him her coach

 

[qwertyskates]

If you look at the protocol, you can see that all of Zijun's technical mistakes (the doubled lutz, the URs) were in the second half of her FS, because she was tiring. Zijun has been known for her lack of speed and stamina throughout her career. Many of her fans were hoping that this had changed, but apparently it has not. She is a lovely young woman and very graceful, and if working with Mishin can help her to overcome her speed/stamina issues, she could easily become a top-tier skater.

This is why i did the music switch experiment - when skated to another piece ( I picked Last Emperor), she wasn't visibly slowing at all. Except for the 2Lz, I thought her triples at the end were awesome, eg. that slight delay into the 3F. I'm not saying she doesn't lose steam, but not more noticeable than other skaters. She placed a lot of spread eagles, ina bauers, leg lifts, spins during 2nd half, she upped the difficulty all the way to the end, but she doesn't place her stsq there, which could give the illusion of her not using fast motions, but many other skaters use the same strategy.

In the past, the same commentators noticed her stamina issues, but not at COR. Otherwise, they would raise these "issues" to explain away her lower scores, but instead, they registered shock and surprise. This is what made me think that there's a wrong impression created here about her skating - we were all not looking at the same skate, and why?

The federation is less likely to support her if she isn't bringing in medals.

This is why this bronze would make such a difference for her...and she lost by 1+ PCS pts that most thought she deserves. Commentators said she deserved to walk away with "something" with these 2 performances, if not for the lock-in of the top 3.

Except for Sleeping Beauty, which landed her her best scores, she hadn't skated to big stirring warhorses.

My favourite skate of hers is this current SP, fast, strong and witchy...

She is capable of subtle but stunning projection...again, shades of Yuna.

Try this experiment, play Zijun's FS with music off and with Lena's Turandot instead. Even though Z's FS piece is much slower and softer, her skating speed can still do Turandot's big aria justice.:agree: In fact, I think Zijun's second half "Turandot" is superior to Lena's in every possible way, lots of choreography, Lena was doing a lot of crossovers sand she FELL on her jump. This stamina "issue" has unfairly haunted her, she's back in shape now and is on par with the big girls.