2017-2018 State of Russian Ice Dance

[Marta25]

...yeah, and isn't it the step sequence levels that have been the problem for Russian teams, more so than the lift levels? (This is a genuine question, btw, as I'm not an ice dance expert and also haven't poured over the protocols THAT closely and systematically.)

It depends a little on the coach, tbh. Svinin/Zhuk teams often have problems to get the levels on pattern and step sequences, but their teams tend to have innovative lifts and twizzles. I think from the Russian coaches Kustarova and Zhulin make a good job to get the levels on the step sequences, but they have other issues to deal with. Loboda/Drozd, who are training in Rumiantseva`s group, had usually good levels on pattern and step sequences when they were still skating in Juniors.

 

[nimi]

It depends a little on the coach, tbh. Svinin/Zhuk teams often have problems to get the levels on pattern and step sequences, but their teams tend to have innovative lifts and twizzles. I think from the Russian coaches Kustarova and Zhulin make a good job to get the levels on the step sequences, but they have other issues to deal with. Loboda/Drozd, who are training in Rumiantseva`s group, had usually good levels on pattern and step sequences when they were still skating in Juniors.

Interesting. Thanks!

 

[Snow63]

I will better watch some original interesting twizzles than standart ones most top teams do. It drives the technical side of the sport forward. And trust me, all teams read the books. ISU tend to underappreciate difficultness now, and while I don't agree with this approach (the technical side of ice dance is basically stopped improving), different features exist. Some teams decided to go with 'cretive/unexpected enter/exit' features to exclude difficult poses and/or difficult positions during lifts (Papadakis/Cizeron), but how long these features will remain creative and unexpected? NOW ISU took course on making ID simplier, and teams who follow the trend are on top. But like everything in the World, this will not last forever.
Zhulin said last season (obviously referring to Bobrova/Soloviev's unique rotational lift) that level 4 lifts for seniors should be the lifts that juniors can't repeat. And this is so againts ISU's agenda that it's not even funny. But it doesn't mean that he's wrong, there's grain of truth in his words. Same for twizzles, many russian teams did two sets with simple change of edge inbetween (without intermediate steps). And it is so much more difficult than twizzle sequences top teams do now. But what did they get for that? Nothing, only dropped GOE. IMO, ISU should make this feature mandatory for level 4, because now even I can do level 4 twizzles (maybe 1/10 chance but still, I'm not an ice dancer). ISU agenda will change sometime, or ID will be excluded from the Olympics. And with this course of actions maybe it's for the best.

P.S. As for Nikita's twizzles, he didn't fix anything. When he will do the twizzles clean at least 9/10 times I will agree with that. But yeah, it's simplier this way. When the rotation during twizzles done 'inside' the curve skaters move on, it gives more balance than straight line. But I'm sure it's the same for professional skater. Besides, they excluded catch blade feature which was more difficult than coupee they're doing now.

 

[Marta25]

I will better watch some original interesting twizzles than standart ones most top teams do. It drives the technical side of the sport forward. And trust me, all teams read the books. ISU tend to underappreciate difficultness now, and while I don't agree with this approach (the technical side of ice dance is basically stopped improving), different features exist. Some teams decided to go with 'cretive/unexpected enter/exit' features to exclude difficult poses and/or difficult positions during lifts (Papadakis/Cizeron), but how long these features will remain creative and unexpected? NOW ISU took course on making ID simplier, and teams who follow the trend are on top. But like everything in the World, this will not last forever.
Zhulin said last season (obviously referring to Bobrova/Soloviev's unique rotational lift) that level 4 lifts for seniors should be the lifts that juniors can't repeat. And this is so againts ISU's agenda that it's not even funny. But it doesn't mean that he's wrong, there's grain of truth in his words. Same for twizzles, many russian teams did two sets with simple change of edge inbetween (without intermediate steps). And it is so much more difficult than twizzle sequences top teams do now. But what did they get for that? Nothing, only dropped GOE. IMO, ISU should make this feature mandatory for level 4, because now even I can do level 4 twizzles (maybe 1/10 chance but still, I'm not an ice dancer). ISU agenda will change sometime, or ID will be excluded from the Olympics. And with this course of actions maybe it's for the best.

P.S. As for Nikita's twizzles, he didn't fix anything. When he will do the twizzles clean at least 9/10 times I will agree with that. But yeah, it's simplier this way. When the rotation during twizzles done 'inside' the curve skaters move on, it gives more balance than straight line. But I'm sure it's the same for professional skater. Besides, they excluded catch blade feature which was more difficult than coupee they're doing now.

Show the proof or it didn`t happen

Anyhow, it sounds like there are major changes to happen after the Olympics. Apparently, the base value for quads may be reduced and they want to reduce the Free Program in men and pairs. I haven`t read any big changes concerning Ice Dance, other than that they want to rename the Short Dance into Rhythm Dance and are proposing the introduction of a combination step sequence. Especially the renaming of the Short Dance is :confused2: I`m not sure how this is supposed to make things better, tbh.

 

[Snow63]

Show the proof or it didn`t happen

Anyhow, it sounds like there are major changes to happen after the Olympics. Apparently, the base value for quads may be reduced and they want to reduce the Free Program in men and pairs. I haven`t read any big changes concerning Ice Dance, other than that they want to rename the Short Dance into Rhythm Dance and are propsong the introduction of a combination step sequence. Especially the renaming of the Short Dance is :confused2: I`m not sure how this is supposed to make things better, tbh.

I finally managed triple twizzle :yay: I can even do 'catch blade' twizzle (even double, but rarely) So maybe I lied a little, doesn't mean I'm wrong

And no, these changes don't happen in one year, maybe not even next quad or two.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

My point is that Team Gadbois read the books, they do easier lifts and get level 4, (though I was surprised that they did not anticiped S/D problems), russian teams make difficult twizzles and get level 1 https://youtu.be/1rzcujT8H3I?t=62, https://youtu.be/TOrvHFYmpjI?t=87

By the way, someone think that twizzles that are not straight forward/in a stright line are easier? because someone mentioned in FSU that Nikita fixed his twizzles because now they are doing easier twizzles https://youtu.be/K2u_JLvGEpY?t=30

I think the problem with the twizzles was cause skater touched the ice in first twizzle before he made enough turns (in that exact examples the mistake is maybe less than quarter of a full turn in the last turn, but its still not full done first twizzle by written rules). The problem with S/B twizzles at the begining was also that their turns didnt travel enough across the ice to call them twizzles, but when they mastered it they got full credit for it. But no matter which level they got at the end they will still be remembered as inventors of sit twizzles. I love to see innovations no matter what judges scores came after it. E: Nothing against H/D elements, or Montreal school, indeed V/M and P/C are my favorite dancers, but it will be boring if everybody use same methods, like one poster here is sugesting as a best solution for russian ice dance, again and again. Win (by getting L4 from judges) is not the only thing it matters.

 

[gmyers]

It depends a little on the coach, tbh. Svinin/Zhuk teams often have problems to get the levels on pattern and step sequences, but their teams tend to have innovative lifts and twizzles. I think from the Russian coaches Kustarova and Zhulin make a good job to get the levels on the step sequences, but they have other issues to deal with. Loboda/Drozd, who are training in Rumiantseva`s group, had usually good levels on pattern and step sequences when they were still skating in Juniors.

The thing about zhulin and kustarova with levels is that when it matters like at a worlds they are always horrible in something. The tougher the scrutiny the worse the levels get. They can do well in a gp but then zhulin coaching gets b/s 8th in worlds SD with level 2 pst.

 

[coldblueeyes]

The thing about zhulin and kustarova with levels is that when it matters like at a worlds they are always horrible in something. The tougher the scrutiny the worse the levels get. They can do well in a gp but then zhulin coaching gets b/s 8th in worlds SD with level 2 pst.

Welp, the same panel put them in third in the FD skating before most of the top 10. But then the judges scrutinized them only on day one, perhaps. Alas, I digress, I think they were fairly judged anyway.

 

[Barb]

]I think the problem with the twizzles was cause skater touched the ice in first twizzle before he made enough turns[/B] (in that exact examples the mistake is maybe less than quarter of a full turn in the last turn, but its still not full done first twizzle by written rules). The problem with S/B twizzles at the begining was also that their turns didnt travel enough across the ice to call them twizzles, but when they mastered it they got full credit for it. But no matter which level they got at the end they will still be remembered as inventors of sit twizzles. I love to see innovations no matter what judges scores came after it. E: Nothing against H/D elements, or Montreal school, indeed V/M and P/C are my favorite dancers, but it will be boring if everybody use same methods, like one poster here is sugesting as a best solution for russian ice dance, again and again. Win (by getting L4 from judges) is not the only thing it matters.

but the other sets were ¨fine¨, someone said that maybe they are doing many steps between sets.

 

[Ice Dance]

I haven`t read any big changes concerning Ice Dance.

I think the big change in ice dance will be that the scale of execution scores are supposed to be moving to a +5 and -5 system. I can see this having two possible ways of working out. One: it may allow the judges to better differentiate between those teams that are really pushing the envelope and trying difficult versions of elements over safe versions. Or two: the judges may fail to do this and only reward cleanliness and/or reputation, and the actual base value of the successfully completed elements will have less influence on the final mark. (In which case, we will get less movement and more predictable results).

I am hoping for the first, and wary of the second.

 

[Cherry blossom]

I just want elena and nikita back together. They were so amazing. Their swan lake FD in Sochi slayed me*sigh*

 

[Snow63]

but the other sets were ¨fine¨, someone said that maybe they are doing many steps between sets.

I think the problem was that she started both sets from the same edge (RFO). She went on RFI (right forward inside edge) in the beginning but then she changed to RFO. Second set entry edge was clearly RFO. And no matter how 'fine' the twizzles were, to receive even level 2 both skaters shold start first two sets from two different entry edges.

As for Bukins, it's a mystery to me why they received level 1. IMO, there was enough travelling to get credit for level 4.

 

[WeakAnkles]

I think the problem was that she started both sets from the same edge (RFO). She went on RFI (right forward inside edge) in the beginning but then she changed to RFO. Second set entry edge was clearly RFO. And no matter how 'fine' the twizzles were, to receive even level 2 both skaters shold start first two sets from two different entry edges.

As for Bukins, it's a mystery to me why they received level 1. IMO, there was enough travelling to get credit for level 4.

Well thing about Bukin's twizzles which astounded me...there was a competition last year where they finally did an overhead shot of his/their twizzles. What astounded me was how little ice coverage they had. They were practically pirouettes!

 

[Snow63]

The thing about zhulin and kustarova with levels is that when it matters like at a worlds they are always horrible in something. The tougher the scrutiny the worse the levels get. They can do well in a gp but then zhulin coaching gets b/s 8th in worlds SD with level 2 pst.

There were two visible mistakes, wyd? PSt was fine, execution wasn't. But their FD was 3rd, even with small mistakes :confused2:

 

[Snow63]

Well thing about Bukin's twizzles which astounded me...there was a competition last year where they finally did an overhead shot of his/their twizzles. What astounded me was how little ice coverage they had. They were practically pirouettes!

Well, yeah. But there's no such feature or GOE characteristic as ice coverage :confused2: So, no fault. At least they do semothing different, and that I appreciate.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Well, yeah. But there's no such feature or GOE characteristic as ice coverage :confused2: So, no fault. At least they do semothing different, and that I appreciate.

Well yes, I was just astounded by it. And I'm sure it must impact the scores on some level with at least some of the judges. Even if only subconsciously.

 

[Snow63]

Well yes, I was just astounded by it. And I'm sure it must impact the scores on some level with at least some of the judges. Even if only subconsciously.

That's true. And that's another thing I would change in scoring system.

 

[Barb]

Well, yeah. But there's no such feature or GOE characteristic as ice coverage :confused2: So, no fault. At least they do semothing different, and that I appreciate.

what? this is so strange. So nobody knows what was the problem with S/B? they even ditched those twizzles.

 

[Ice Dance]

Well yes, I was just astounded by it. And I'm sure it must impact the scores on some level with at least some of the judges. Even if only subconsciously.

I'm sure it does; but Stepanova & Bukin usually travel better on their twizzles these days. It seemed to me like last season S&B only had one rough performance where they barely did, while when they first started performing them in seniors, it happened quite often. They have really improved them since then. Everyone has a weak set of twizzles now and again. S&B less often than most teams.

 

[Snow63]

what? this is so strange. So nobody knows what was the problem with S/B? they even ditched those twizzles.

Tarasova said that 'officials' explanation was that twizzles were pirouettes, in both sets And some tech panels in the beginning of the season didn't count their first set as twizzles at all (they counted them as simple loops), but then ISU clarified that these turns meet all the requirements to be counted as twizzles, that's why they were marked as level 4 later on the season. In my opinion, according to the rules, pirouette is a turn executed on one spot. But even in the video you've posted it's cearly visible that they start their twizzles and finish them on different spots (even if it's close to the start), so there was travelling. Just look in slowmo, they execute them close to the writings on the ice, so it's clearly visible.