2017 CS Finlandia Ladies SP

[Baron Vladimir]

I woke up from a nap just in time for Carolina's skate, so I saw the whole 2nd group. And I'm shocked.

Carolina's skate did not deserve those marks. The PCS are out of bounds unreasonable. Can you imagine how she herself must feel, getting such high marks after a skate like that? I mean, how stupid do the judges think skaters are? They should be ashamed.

Liza Tuk's skate only made me nervous and dizzy. Completely frenetic. The 3T-3T was beautiful, though.

The most beautiful, best-balanced skate was Angela Wang's. It was also the one which took a piece of music and translated it to emotion and a satisfying performance. Her presence on the ice was superb, her elements were well done, her performance was simply wonderful.

This all makes me angry. Figure skating has come to a ridiculous pass. No wonder the sport loses viewers like it's bleeding out. If I were a casual observer, I'd think, well, it's just a sport with no logic in the scoring.

Changes in the system better be coming.

But lets be real, Carolina Kostner is (by common people knowledge) the most known ladies name in figure skating right now... She is like a presenter of Ladies figure skating today... And she is what judges wanted from ladies when they incorporated that PC mark. I mean, at her best she outscored both Yu Na and Adelina in PCS who are both one of the best skaters in that part of skating in ladies figure skating history

 

[silverfoxes]

But lets be real, Carolina Kostner is (by common people knowledge) the most known ladies name in figure skating right now... She is like a presenter of Ladies figure skating today...

This isn't a popularity contest. Why in the world should that have any bearing on her scores? If it's even true (I am not so sure about that, outside of continental Europe perhaps)

 

[Baron Vladimir]

This isn't a popularity contest. Why in the world should that have any bearing on her scores? If it's even true (I am not so sure about that, outside of continental Europe perhaps)

I edited my post to explain it better. She already outskated all ladies at the last Olympic in that part, so

 

[Koralai]

Random observation... I love that Maria wore a ponytail for this program, and I hope she keeps it throughout the season. It really emphasized how she was flying through that music!

 

[Jammers]

The overscoring of Kostner has been a thing for years but it's now ridiculous that she's scoring over 67 points with no combo. It's almost like the european judges want a European skater that's not Russian to be a contender despite now having 1980's jump difficulty.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I just need to say how much I love the way Masha takes the ice by smacking her thighs!!

Here I am!!! I'm gonna do THIS!!!! Deal with it!!!!

 

[Skater Boy]

6 Carolina KOSTNER (ITA)

Music: Ne me quitte pas by Jacques Brel, performed by Celine Dion

Dark red dress, silvery straps

3F+COMBO - fall
3Lo
FCSp
2A
LSp
StSq
CCoSp

Costly fall on planned opening combo. Too much speed to control?

SP: 32.02+36.43-1.00 = 67.45, 1/6

The judges could have really buried this program; but this score suggests she might be ranked about no. 2 in the world just ahead of Osmond, Daleman and the other Russians (other than Medveda.

 

[Skater Boy]

It does affect the PCS because it takes you out of the performance. I though Caro's SP was extremely pretty even though I hate her music but imo you can't really justify giving grades above 9.50 to a program that objectively could be skated better.

Well if you think about it her skating skills are almost equivalent to Patrick Chan who is probably the best. So if you consider Hanyu can slosh all over the ice and still win silver to Fernandez this might help explain the high pcs. But really Carolina gets Christmas, Hannakuh and Festivus gifts all at once !!!!

 

[WeakAnkles]

The judges could have really buried this program; but this score suggests she might be ranked about no. 2 in the world just ahead of Osmond, Daleman and the other Russians (other than Medveda.

It's one early season, B event, in Europe. I don't think one should go so far as to base a "world ranking" on only one early season competition.

Just saying...

And I love Kostner and I think for the most part she righteously earns that PCS. It may be more likely that Kostner isn't so much OVERscored than that other women are UNDERscored.

Also just saying...

 

[karne]

Beautiful from Brooklee and Amelia

Me thinking about us having to choose between Brooklee and Kailani:

Me looking at the protocols and scores and particularly Kostner's score: :disapp: :disapp:

 

[Skater Boy]

I still can't explain Kostner's very generous marks. I think her pcs should be high but she is so much higher than the other girls - averaging a mark higher than the next ladies. Now my logic is then to analagous generally speaking Chan should be 3/4 to a point ahead of Hanyu on each category but we will never see that in fact Hanyu wins often. Kostner has the speed and best skating skills usually even when she off though falls do interfere in the program and pcs. She still might be first in pcs even with errors anddeservedly but not this much. This is scandalous. I try to be fair and to those who thought Kostner or Kim deserved gold over Sotnikova at Sochi well Kostner's scores are fare more debatable, scandalous and unfair. And that is my problem Kostner's mark up is so much and so wrong. If that is the case we should see skaters like Chan or Sui and Han getting far more points than other teams/skaters but that is not the case. These scores suggest she can win a medal without a triple lutz and some errors. Liza and Maria should be much further ahead - now the three are basically tied. Heck Liza is a former world champ and she didn't get held up like Ms.Kostner. Kostner has always been rather lucky with judging even when she falls over the ice or she could have been villainanized for lack of integerity with her boyfriend in the drug scandal but no one held it against her including the judges. Now carolina is like the person who can do no wrong - she always smells like roses deserved or not.

 

[solani]

Can you break this down for me? Do you believe that the scores should also be so close? With Sotskova 0.2 (or even 1.2) ahead of Kostner?

I'm sure you know more than I do. I really cannot understand. I looked at the protocols and saw that the levels for Costner were higher on all elements. But were they really? And the GOEs were much higher than Sotskova, Daleman, et al. Should they really have been?

Nobody can ever convince me that there should be that much disparity in the PCS. I just don't buy that.

It's possible I have no idea what I'm talking about. But it is starting to make me angry when I watch Kostner (and Wagner), and I don't like that feeling!

I'm not sure I know more than you do, but I guess I look it things differently. Carolina has improved her spins, I think everyone can see that. Not that she ever was a poor spinner, she was a decent spinner but she seems to have realized that more is needed now. And she has hit level 4 on all of her spins in the SP (the only skater in this competition - who would have thought that?), the positions were pretty, the centering / speed is good and they match the music very well. The only criticism I have is that she did seem to run out of steam on that last spin and finished too late. But she hit that level 4 as well. And regarding the combo - we all know that she can add a 2T to the 3L. But she would have sacrificed parts of her choreography. Apart from the fall on the 3F this was a very good performance.
She has the only level 4 step sequence in this competition and I want to point out that she needs less time to do a level 4 step sequence than any other lady. So there's the quality. I think less is more in figure skating (It's about gliding, balance, speed, deep edges, all those things I love about this sport. It should look smooth.). She's not doing a million transitions but the transitions she does are top-notch. Her body movement transitions are still the best in the business and she's doing them all the time (and about 90% of the fans here seem to ignore them on purpose).
But her greatest "weapons" regarding PCS is the way that she can handle music and her skating skills. This music is very difficult to skate to. This is no random program with interchangable background music. Judges seem to favour skating skills and interpretation and because they seem to have the order to not have huge differences in the PCS categories (this doesn't seem right...) skaters with good skating skills or interpretation (or practically everyone who is excellent in one category) seems to get higher PCS overall. Wagner doesn't have the best skating skills but she can give you a great performance anytime.
And I don't really care about points, I care about the ranking and without that time deduction Maria would lead. Wang's program was nice and enjoyable but she wasn't better than Kostner (and she didn't the levels). So I agree with the result after the SP.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I'm not sure I know more than you do, but I guess I look it things differently. Carolina has improved her spins, I think everyone can see that. Not that she ever was a poor spinner, she was a decent spinner but she seems to have realized that more is needed now. And she has hit level 4 on all of her spins in the SP (the only skater in this competition - who would have thought that?), the positions were pretty, the centering / speed is good and they match the music very well. The only criticism I have is that she did seem to run out of steam on that last spin and finished too late. But she hit that level 4 as well. And regarding the combo - we all know that she can add a 2T to the 3L. But she would have sacrificed parts of her choreography. Apart from the fall on the 3F this was a very good performance.
She has the only level 4 step sequence in this competition and I want to point out that she needs less time to do a level 4 step sequence than any other lady. So there's the quality. I think less is more in figure skating (It's about gliding, balance, speed, deep edges, all those things I love about this sport. It should look smooth.). She's not doing a million transitions but the transitions she does are top-notch. Her body movement transitions are still the best in the business and she's doing them all the time (and about 90% of the fans here seem to ignore them on purpose).
But her greatest "weapons" regarding PCS is the way that she can handle music and her skating skills. This music is very difficult to skate to. This is no random program with interchangable background music. Judges seem to favour skating skills and interpretation and because they seem to have the order to not have huge differences in the PCS categories (this doesn't seem right...) skaters with good skating skills or interpretation (or practically everyone who is excellent in one category) seems to get higher PCS overall. Wagner doesn't have the best skating skills but she can give you a great performance anytime.
And I don't really care about points, I care about the ranking and without that time deduction Maria would lead. Wang's program was nice and enjoyable but she wasn't better than Kostner (and she didn't the levels). So I agree with the result after the SP.

From an experienced skater I'll tell you that Caro's music is not difficult to skate to by any means.

 

[solani]

From an experienced skater I'll tell you that Caro's music is not difficult to skate to by any means.

And has this experienced skater told you what he considers to be difficult music to skate to? I'm very interested. Examples/programs would be best. I always want to improve my understanding of this sport and dance overall.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

And has this experienced skater told you what he considers to be difficult music to skate to? I'm very interested. Examples/programs would be best. I always want to improve my understanding of this sport and dance overall.

I'm the experienced skater. IDK where you got a "he" from. Try any Tango Romantica SD, or Nathan Chen's SP this season has a particularly difficult track to skate to.
Check out Jeremy Abbott's 2012 SP with all of the swing dance moves for a singles skater, or his recent pro program to Land of All. Then maybe you'll kind of understand why I say a operatic at best Celine Dion cover is not difficult.

There are others I could list but I don't have that kind of time on my hands right now. Go do some homework and learn the sport for yourself a bit.

 

[solani]

I'm the experienced skater. IDK where you got a "he" from. Try any Tango Romantica pattern skate, or Nathan Chen's SP this season has a particularly difficult track to skate to.
Check out Jeremy Abbott's 2012 SP with all of the swing dance moves for a singles skater, or his recent pro program to Land of All. Then maybe you'll kind of understand why I say a operatic at best Celine Dion cover is not difficult.

There are others I could list but I don't have that kind of time on my hands right now. Go do some homework and learn the sport for yourself a bit.

Nice to get some insight. But surely, you don't expect a lady to skate to a Tango Romantica pattern. I like Chen's SP by the way. Abbott was great, without any doubt.
Sad that you don't have any time, so I'm as clueless as before. Some ladies programs (preferable current ladies programs) would make great examples.
So I still think that Carolina's interpretation and timing is very good, she's not skating through this music (as many skaters sadly do) or hiding her deficiencies with frantic random movements. Again, for me, less is still more. And much more difficult.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Nice to get some insight. But surely, you don't expect a lady to skate to a Tango Romantica pattern. I like Chen's SP by the way. Abbott was great, without any doubt.
Sad that you don't have any time, so I'm as clueless as before. Some ladies programs (preferable current ladies programs) would make great examples.
So I still think that Carolina's interpretation and timing is very good, she's not skating through this music (as many skaters sadly do) or hiding her deficiencies with frantic random movements. Again, for me, less is still more. And much more difficult.

I never said a woman to skate a tango rom pattern. Although with the right choreographer it could be done. And then there's solo ice dance but that's another story. I mentioned Tango rom because you said you wanted to learn about dance too. Go watch.

 

[TryMeLater]

NOT in the Junior girl's world, there, Judges are sending the msg: cluttered transition is the benchmark of good PCS, which is everything BUT Kostner.
So what directions should girls aspire to skate like ?

It's not fair to compare Seniors and Juniors.
Junior scores are quite meaningless.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I wouldn't consider Tango Romantica to be one of the most difficult (only the most difficult of the tangos). In terms of executing them well, I would put all of the "top level" waltzes, the yankee polka, the finnstep, and the midnight blues as more difficult. The midnight blues not being as difficult in terms of the actual steps, but in terms of the further artistry that's needed to make it interesting. Tango is not such a difficult concept to perform, it can be more blatant than the nuance required to make blues effective.

 

[solani]

I never said a woman to skate a tango rom pattern. Although with the right choreographer it could be done. And then there's solo ice dance but that's another story. I mentioned Tango rom because you said you wanted to learn about dance too. Go watch.

Oh thanks. This was a misunderstanding because I meant dance in general, not ice dance. And I do watch. But I would still be glad and thankful if you could mention some current ladies program with particular difficult music to skate to. This would be much appreciated.