2017 CS Lombardia Trophy Mens LP

[Tavi...]

The way you and child skaters skate on two feet is very different than the way elite skaters do. Shoma's FS has quite a lot of crossovers, but he also incorporates mini spread eagles and ina bauers as part of his 2-footed skating, which is harder than simply stroking around from jump to jump. Not to mention, his jumps still have transitional entries into them (some quite difficult like his quad toes -- especially the 2nd one with the counter). There is also something to be said about editing a program and not packing it wall to wall with transitions. He could, for example, add exit transitions onto every jump and increase GOE (it's not that hard for him to simply put his free foot down and do an outside spread eagle, like in his SP... or on the landing, he could do a RBO-RFO rocker, or a RBO-LFI choctaw, a falling leaf, or whatever). But he probably wants to show a controlled landing with flow instead of just tack on a transition each time. That being said, Uno could use more one-footed skating, but he's not glaringly deficient in it. Not to mention, it's the beginning of the season, and he's getting used to this layout, so the transitions and choreo are probably pared down from what they will ultimately be later on in the season.




Mmmmmhmmmm....

No need to roll your eyes - I stated truthfully that my post wasn't directed at any skater, and have no wish to wade into the argument regarding Shoma, who I like. It was directed at posters in this thread who were discussing two foot skating - which I think includes you. If you disagree with what the rule says, that's your prerogative, but the rule has very plain meaning.

 

[MaiKatze]

Figure skating is a unique sport though. It's not comparable to a sport like basketball, baseball or football, where the object of the game is to rack up the most points.

The "artistic" side of things are an inheritant part of the sport. Yes, measuring style/artistry/performance is subjective, but that doesn't mean one should completely disregard its role in the sport or that discussions regarding increasing their worth makes figure skating less of a sport.

I feel like ISU went almost one extreme at the 2010 Olympics and now going at another extreme as we go into the 2018 Olympics. I think there's a spectrum between "let's disregard quads" and "quads are the most important part of skating." I think the discussions here are whether the artistry/style should count for more in general...not more THAN doing jumps.

I don't know what these changes include then. A poster wrote that it was a change that would help Jason Brown (perhaps as a stand-in for the artistic skater) win every competition, but that user used no sarcasm emoji or anything implying they weren't dead serious, saying yes, artistry is going to 'weigh' more than tech, elsewise how could he win? Even if 'artistry' will be better rewarded I think it won't make a difference in who is at the top and who isn't. I still think the jumps are more important than the artistry. It's a difficult situation but I think the focus on the tech is more fair than having people win on PCS, which made it so much harder to come out on top if you weren't on the judges radar anyway. I for one was more than often disappointed in results where the technical superior skater lost to some more 'artistic' skater on the grounds of PCS. But that's just my personal feeling on the matter.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't know what these changes include then. A poster wrote that it was a change that would help Jason Brown (perhaps as a stand-in for the artistic skater) win every competition, but that user used no sarcasm emoji or anything implying they weren't dead serious, saying yes, artistry is going to 'weigh' more than tech, elsewise how could he win? Even if 'artistry' will be better rewarded I think it won't make a difference in who is at the top and who isn't. I still think the jumps are more important than the artistry. It's a difficult situation but I think the focus on the tech is more fair than having people win on PCS, which made it so much harder to come out on top if you weren't on the judges radar anyway. I for one was more than often disappointed in results where the technical superior skater lost to some more 'artistic' skater on the grounds of PCS. But that's just my personal feeling on the matter.

I don't think it will make a huge difference in the rankings, but it would certainly help those aspects of the sport matter more perhaps. Right now they're just proposals, so I don't think it means really much to skaters right now anyway.

Also it's a moot point at THIS competition cause I don't think anyone is disputing that Shoma with his 7 quads (over two programs) should have lost to Jason with none. I think it's more of a nuanced discussion regarding the gap between the two. Shoma won by 59 points. All but about 8 points of that were on BV alone. In the eyes of the judges they were oretty close on execution (which Jason edged Shoma at in the FS, but Shoma had far more in the SP as Jason had some problems, hence the ovreall difference in Shoma's favor) and PCS (only 1.2 difference, again in Shoma's favor and a scant difference in the FS, where Jason beat him in some categories).

I think it's reasonable to analyze and critically argue the point difference in these two areas (PCS/GOE) given how they executed their content, but I don't think anyone is questioning the result, per se.

 

[Tavi...]

What I think is sometimes forgotten in the discussion of difficulty / lack of difficulty in Jason's programs, is that he does other things that are really hard, but just aren't valued as highly. Case in point: in the first half of his program he went almost directly (1 step in between, I think) from a +2.00 GOE 3A to his trademark teardrop spin, on which he got +3 from 6/7 judges. Similarly, he ended the program with a double axel, directly into twizzles, directly into his final spin. I know that some people do inas or spread eagles into and out of jumps, but I'm not sure I've seen anyone do the things I've described. Right now the scoring system has no way to account for that so people look at Jason's programs and say no quad = not much difficulty. I think that's wrong.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What I think is sometimes forgotten in the discussion of difficulty / lack of difficulty in Jason's programs, is that he does other things that are really hard, but just aren't valued as highly. Case in point: in the first half of his program he went almost directly (1 step in between, I think) from a +2.00 GOE 3A to his trademark teardrop spin, on which he got +3 from 6/7 judges. Similarly, he ended the program with a double axel, directly into twizzles, directly into his final spin. I know that some people do inas or spread eagles into and out of jumps, but I'm not sure I've seen anyone do the things I've described. Right now the scoring system has no way to account for that so people look at Jason's programs and say no quad = not much difficulty. I think that's wrong.

That's covered off in Grade of Execution on those elements as well as Transitions. For spins, you get a difficult entry feature (won't be awarded in that particularly case, but it can be with the right entry). Good judges will also notice details and added difficulty even if it's not worth any points... e.g. in pairs, we see transitional dance lifts and movements that exert more energy than just skating around... but aren't worth any points.

 

[Mrs. P]

What I think is sometimes forgotten in the discussion of difficulty / lack of difficulty in Jason's programs, is that he does other things that are really hard, but just aren't valued as highly. Case in point: in the first half of his program he went almost directly (1 step in between, I think) from a +2.00 GOE 3A to his trademark teardrop spin, on which he got +3 from 6/7 judges. Similarly, he ended the program with a double axel, directly into twizzles, directly into his final spin. I know that some people do inas or spread eagles into and out of jumps, but I'm not sure I've seen anyone do the things I've described. Right now the scoring system has no way to account for that so people look at Jason's programs and say no quad = not much difficulty. I think that's wrong.

That's covered off in Grade of Execution on those elements as well as Transitions. For spins, you get a difficult entry feature (won't be awarded in that particularly case, but it can be with the right entry). Good judges will also notice details and added difficulty even if it's not worth any points... e.g. in pairs, we see transitional dance lifts and movements that exert more energy than just skating around.

I think that Jason was recognized for what he did with GOE and PCS. I think it's sort of little nuances for me at this point. For one, I think a case could be made that that there needs to perhaps be more differentiation in spins. I feel like unless the spin is TERRIBLE, most skaters get some + GOE when they shouldn't. Getting a level 4 spin is a matter of getting rotations and positions, it doesn't matter if you rotate fast or slow, or your positions look terrible or aren't held correctly. In essence, the only differentiation for a spinner for Jason is a mere 1.5 points or even less, cause as I said, most get at least 0.5.

In Ice Dance, you have to do a HECK of a lot of stuff to get a level 4 step sequence, I wonder if there's something we can do in spins that would have the same feel, to really give those who actually do REALLY good spins a bit of a boost -- not saying it should equal quads..I'm just talking maybe an extra point or two.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

. In the eyes of the judges they were oretty close on execution (which Jason edged Shoma at in the FS, but Shoma had far more in the SP as Jason had some problems, hence the ovreall difference in Shoma's favor) and PCS (only 1.2 difference, again in Shoma's favor and a scant difference in the FS, where Jason beat him in some categories).

Good points. In the SP, Shoma was essentially clean with 2 quads whereas Jason had two blatant technical errors (a 4T<< fall being a really blatant one). And yet their PCS was kept close to each other (probably about 2 points too high for Jason, and maybe a point too high for Shoma, IMO). Same in the FS - Shoma's PCS was spot on, I think... and Jason getting almost his personal best PCS (even with a couple minor errors) was on point too. For a program with no quads in this day and age, getting 91.80 is appropriate.

 

[Tavi...]

That's covered off in Grade of Execution on those elements as well as Transitions. For spins, you get a difficult entry feature (won't be awarded in that particularly case, but it can be with the right entry). Good judges will also notice details and added difficulty even if it's not worth any points... e.g. in pairs, we see transitional dance lifts and movements that exert more energy than just skating around... but aren't worth any points.

Yes, I realize that a difficult transition into a perfect element will or should be recognized with more GOE and higher transition marks. The point I'm trying to make is that it's probably not enough. The base value of Jason's level 4 teardrop spin is 3.20. Add 1.50 points (for unanimous plus 3 GOE on the spin). Add a transition mark of 9.25 - let's say an easier transition would be 8.50, so that's an increase of .75. Total score for a very beautiful spin with a very difficult transition: 5.45 points (3.2+1.5+.75). In contrast, a 4Z without any plus GOE at all is worth 13.6 points - a bonus of 7.6 points over a 3Z - and it can earn up to 3 points in GOE = 17.6 points, or 11 points more than a 3z. That's without the extra PCS that seems to come as an additional quad bonus.

Most people argue that a 4Z is so hard that it deserves all those points. But is it? That value was established before anyone ever jumped one. Should a perfect 4Z with max GOE really be worth more than 3 times what Jason's perfect spins with very difficult transitions are worth? Is it more than 3 times as hard? I don't know for sure because I can't do any of those elements myself, and it probably varies from person to person anyway. But I'd guess the jump bonus is probably too high relative to the bonus other elements earn. Perhaps that's what the rumored changes in scoring are intended to address.

 

[el henry]

I don't know what these changes include then. A poster wrote that it was a change that would help Jason Brown (perhaps as a stand-in for the artistic skater) win every competition, but that user used no sarcasm emoji or anything implying they weren't dead serious, saying yes, artistry is going to 'weigh' more than tech, elsewise how could he win? Even if 'artistry' will be better rewarded I think it won't make a difference in who is at the top and who isn't. I still think the jumps are more important than the artistry. It's a difficult situation but I think the focus on the tech is more fair than having people win on PCS, which made it so much harder to come out on top if you weren't on the judges radar anyway. I for one was more than often disappointed in results where the technical superior skater lost to some more 'artistic' skater on the grounds of PCS. But that's just my personal feeling on the matter.

This poster is not a Jason fan. Those points are made in every single thread about Jason, but they are to mock Jason, not to support him. You can check out the Fan Fest if you want to see how real Jason fans discuss the issues, because we do

I have no problem with differing personal opinions. I am disappointed when the skater who demonstrates superior spins, footwork, and skating skills, which I find just as "athletic" and "sporting" as jumps, are not rewarded. That too is just my personal opinion, and we can have different opinions. That is why we have figure skating boards:agree:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, I realize that a difficult transition into a perfect element will or should be recognized with more GOE and higher transition marks. The point I'm trying to make is that it's probably not enough. The base value of Jason's level 4 teardrop spin is 3.20. Add 1.50 points (for unanimous plus 3 GOE on the spin). Add a transition mark of 9.25 - let's say an easier transition would be 8.50, so that's an increase of .75. Total score for a very beautiful spin with a very difficult transition: 5.45 points (3.2+1.5+.75). In contrast, a 4Z without any plus GOE at all is worth 13.6 points - a bonus of 7.6 points over a 3Z - and it can earn up to 3 points in GOE = 17.6 points, or 11 points more than a 3z. That's without the extra PCS that seems to come as an additional quad bonus.

Most people argue that a 4Z is so hard that it deserves all those points. But is it? That value was established before anyone ever jumped one. Should a perfect 4Z with max GOE really be worth more than 3 times what Jason's perfect spins with very difficult transitions are worth? Is it more than 3 times as hard? I don't know for sure because I can't do any of those elements myself, and it probably varies from person to person anyway. But I'd guess the jump bonus is probably too high relative to the bonus other elements earn. Perhaps that's what the rumored changes in scoring are intended to address.

In short, YES. A perfectly execute 4Z is more than 3 times as hard as any spin. In terms of being able to actually physically able to execute the element in the first place, a quad lutz (which only 4 or 5 skaters can do) is IMMENSELY more difficult than any spin. Of course, few can match the quality Jason has in his spins due to his superior flexibility, which is why he gets the highest GOE on it.

The rumored scoring changes will partially address this, and it will close the gap, but other skaters getting awarded less points on their multiple quads still isn't going to significantly help Jason if he can't get a couple of his own.

 

[TontoK]

How many men landed multiple quads just this past weekend? I think Max Aaron landed five. Nathan Chen landed three in deliberately watered down programs. Shoma landed seven. Brendan - I don't remember - two maybe? Liam landed two (I think). And that's off the top of my head, not counting skaters who didn't even compete this weekend - Hanyu, Patrick, Javier, Vincent...

The barrage of quads isn't slowing down; it's picking up.

 

[Mrs. P]

In short, YES. A perfectly execute 4Z is more than 3 times as hard as any spin. In terms of being able to actually physically able to execute the element in the first place, a quad lutz (which only 4 or 5 skaters can do) is IMMENSELY more difficult than any spin. Of course, few can match the quality Jason has in his spins due to his superior flexibility, which is why he gets the highest GOE on it.

The rumored scoring changes will partially address this, and it will close the gap, but other skaters getting awarded less points on their multiple quads still isn't going to significantly help Jason if he can't get a couple of his own.

How many men landed multiple quads just this past weekend? I think Max Aaron landed five. Nathan Chen landed three in deliberately watered down programs. Shoma landed seven. Brendan - I don't remember - two maybe? Liam landed two (I think). And that's off the top of my head, not counting skaters who didn't even compete this weekend - Hanyu, Patrick, Javier, Vincent...

The barrage of quads isn't slowing down; it's picking up.

Just to be clear. I'm not anti-quad or think that spins/step sequences should be worth just as much as a quad even. And I'm definitely not a "limit the quads in a program" type. If people can do those jumps and they want to attempt that level of content, it should be allowed, especially in a free skate. But given the number of stories I've heard from people (like Ashley Wagner) getting concussions from spins, it's clear it takes work and there's inheritant risk in practicing spins as well. I don't think doing a really good spin is so easy that it should only warrant at best, a one point differential between BV/GOE.

I get step sequences are the main game in town for ice dance, but at one time it used to be much more difficult to get a level 4 for even single skaters. Judges used to be far more judicious with giving level 4s a few years back. Again, not saying at a step sequence should be worth 14 points or even that much more than it's worth now, but the differential between a level 3 and a level 4 should be higher (it's only 0.3, I think) and it should probably be harder to get a level 4.

And I'd also argue that judges should be more judicious with +GOE bullets too.

All that said, I don't dispute that Jason needs to have quads to been in the medal conversation (and right now he isn't based on what he's put out so far), but I think it's more that people truly underestimate that his program is more difficult in certain ways and the scoring system doesn't show that. It's easy to say, oh wow this skater has a 4T that's worth 10.3 points! That's really difficult. People see a Stsq4 is only worth 3.9 points (or 6.0 if you get MAX GOE) so they're like, "His program's so easy."

I've started watching gymnastics more lately and one thing I like about their scoring system is that they give bonuses for "connecting" elements and difficult transitions when calculating a base value score. Figure skating might benefit by having more of that incorporated into the TES side of things, i.e. into the base value rather than in GOE, which is where that is being recognized now.

 

[karne]

Brendan - I don't remember - two maybe? .

Three - two in the short and one in the free.

 

[Tavi...]

In short, YES. A perfectly execute 4Z is more than 3 times as hard as any spin. In terms of being able to actually physically able to execute the element in the first place, a quad lutz (which only 4 or 5 skaters can do) is IMMENSELY more difficult than any spin. Of course, few can match the quality Jason has in his spins due to his superior flexibility, which is why he gets the highest GOE on it.

The rumored scoring changes will partially address this, and it will close the gap, but other skaters getting awarded less points on their multiple quads still isn't going to significantly help Jason if he can't get a couple of his own.

I respectfully disagree that we know for a fact that a 4Z is more than 3 x harder than any spin. The reason only a few people currently do it is because until recently it was just assumed it was too hard. And yet, Boyang, Nathan, Vincent, and other guys trying it all seem to have picked it up pretty quickly. Similarly, Nathan, Vincent, and Shoma have all picked up the 4F pretty quickly, Yuzuru and Nathan have picked up 4L pretty quickly, etc. Are they all super-talented jumpers? I'm sure they are. But the fact that people are picking up these "hard" jumps so easily may be anecdotal evidence that the 4Z maybe isn't quite as hard as everyone thought it was. Maybe it's not hard enough to give someone more than double the base value of a 3Z, or 5+ points more than a 3A, for simply attempting it. My point is there's no real evidence one way or the other. And to bring this back to spins, Jason, at least, has said in an interview that even without quads, his programs are extremely taxing. So maybe spins the way he does them are harder than he's getting credit for. But we don't have evidence of that, either.

 

[Mrs. P]

Well those quads are probably hard enough that we have all these guys repeating programs, to be fair.

That said, the 3A is still a money jump and there's been more than one story about skaters picking up quads because they didn't have the 3A. Lambiel didn't, for one. Before Shoma picked up the quad toe before really getting the 3A. Nathan's 3A is OK, but it's obvious it's not his best jump, hence his gravitation toward quads. Jason has done himself a solid stabilizing that 3A while he integrates the quad this season.

 

[lavender]

Unpopular opinion....my favorite lp so far is Jason but I don't like his sp. It's not giving me that Prince program feels which was surprisingly one of my favorites.

 

[Mrs. P]

Unpopular opinion....my favorite lp so far is Jason but I don't like his sp. It's not giving me that Prince program feels which was surprisingly one of my favorites.

I definitely love the FS more and ok with SP.. so you're not alone.

 

[WeakAnkles]

Unpopular opinion....my favorite lp so far is Jason but I don't like his sp. It's not giving me that Prince program feels which was surprisingly one of my favorites.

It still feels like a work in progress, particularly in terms of element layout. But I think it has enormous potential. It's not so immediately flashy as Riverdance. But it strikes me as the direct descendant of the Tristan AND Piano FDs. Which is fascinating.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I respectfully disagree that we know for a fact that a 4Z is more than 3 x harder than any spin. The reason only a few people currently do it is because until recently it was just assumed it was too hard. And yet, Boyang, Nathan, Vincent, and other guys trying it all seem to have picked it up pretty quickly. Similarly, Nathan, Vincent, and Shoma have all picked up the 4F pretty quickly, Yuzuru and Nathan have picked up 4L pretty quickly, etc. Are they all super-talented jumpers? I'm sure they are. But the fact that people are picking up these "hard" jumps so easily may be anecdotal evidence that the 4Z maybe isn't quite as hard as everyone thought it was. Maybe it's not hard enough to give someone more than double the base value of a 3Z, or 5+ points more than a 3A, for simply attempting it. My point is there's no real evidence one way or the other. And to bring this back to spins, Jason, at least, has said in an interview that even without quads, his programs are extremely taxing. So maybe spins the way he does them are harder than he's getting credit for. But we don't have evidence of that, either.

We can agree to disagree. But I think that any skater with sufficient flexibility and at least junior-level spinning ability could do a one-handed back Biellmann. Maybe not as well as well as Brown can but still they can execute. However only a handful of athletes can do a 4Z.

If a spin were worth 12 points then sure, you'd get tons of skaters devoting time to that.

 

[Mrs. P]

It still feels like a work in progress, particularly in terms of element layout. But I think it has enormous potential. It's not so immediately flashy as Riverdance. But it strikes me as the direct descendant of the Tristan AND Piano FDs. Which is fascinating.

I was thinking that also It has some of the romanticism and drama (without the gurgling sounds, lol) of Tristan but the lyrical feel of The Piano. Kinda want to watch both programs back to back now that you mentioned it.

ETA: So I did watch them. OMG, I was surprised at my reaction. I haven't seen the Tristan FS probably in two years or so and it was still good and appreciate his performance and all that, but after two years of minimalist Jason w/ The Piano watching Tristan Jason felt like eating a big bowl of candy! SO MUCH DRAMA SUGAR. THE COSTUME! The sound effects. It was all sooo much. I watched the WTT version, which means sans yellow pants, which is probably good cause I probably be like even more shocked, ha.

I can kinda even see why it may have been OTT or manufactured artistry or whatever to some people. Anyway, it's good he's evolved since then. I think that program was a good vehicle for him at the time -- he needed something more mature that allowed him to perform like Riverdance. But this probably would have been super disappointing as a FS if this had come AFTER the Piano or the FS was a carbon copy of that.

I feel like this FS is a nice compromise between the two. There's a bit of romanticism and drama but not too much. But it's still pretty minimalistic.

The Hamilton program may seem a bit much too after last year's SP also, which is probably why I'm not all in on it.