2017 GP Cup of China Mens FS

[Mathman]

So, bottom line, if we are going to use politics and home venue as part of the scoring, then state it in the rules, and not be so sneaky and surreptitious. Boyang is simply put: Chinese fed's guy...

Well of course he is. The French Federation likes Papadakis and Cizeron, too. I don't think we can draw much information about scoring from this Cup of China competition. In the LP Max Aaron gave an excellent performance, won the segment, and moved up to 3rd overall. Kolyada followed an outstanding short with a disappointing long, but held on for the victory. Jin was OK in the short, terrible in the long. He held on to second. Vincent Zhou shook off his SP (8th), got 2nd in the free, and pulled up to 4th overall.

No one really distinguished himself overall, though Kolyada's short and Aaron's long were fine efforts. I just don't see anything here.

 

[twirlingblades]

Come on! The ISU putting out that Javi had a stomach problem! If that's true, then he should have pulled out of the fp instead of skating poorly and then bending over like he was in some kind of agony as he sheepishly exited the ice after embarrassing himself. I have no sympathy whatsoever! The ISU is protecting Javi's embarrassment and coddling him in the exact same way they have over-protected Javi, Hanyu (and before them Patrick) after performances in which they cleaned up the ice with their behinds!

Did the ISU put out that Nathan had a boot problem after 2017 Worlds?! Nope. Nathan Chen sucked it up, did the best he could and took it on the chin! And then he learned from the experience and applied what he learned, even as he continued to lead the way in the quad-revolution that is rocking this discipline to its depths! This statement from the ISU on Javi's behalf tells me even more than the ridiculous overscores for Javi and Hanyu on PCS, that Javi as well as Hanyu are seen as ISU's bread and butter. And honchos in the sport aren't exactly happy about Nathan Chen upsetting the applecart. Why all of a sudden are they hurriedly scouting to find a way to change the rules next year on quads when it should have happened during the Patrick Chan era?

On paper, sure Javi should have won with Kolyada in second and Boyang in third IF they had performed to their abilities in both programs. But they didn't! The only skater who performed well in both programs is Max Aaron, but the ISU is no way eager to get behind rewarding Max Aaron for his hard work and improvements, much less for his performing better than everyone else overall. The looking down on Max needs to stop!

Ashley Cain I believe reported stomach issues as well. High level athletes don't just pull out of a competition because they are sick. This is like the GPF in South Korea where 12+ skaters were ill and still skated.

 

[GGFan]

The fact is that I do not base my comments on who my favorite skaters are. I look at things objectively and frankly, based on over 45 years of following this sport. Boyang's PCS in the fp were way too high because Boyang is Chinese fed's guy, and he's a quadster who the ISU was willing to over-reward right from the beginning. I have nothing against Boyang's character. He's a nice guy with some wonderful abilities and capacity for growth. But he's not a well-rounded skater. Like few skaters, he's been given the moon before he fully paid his dues. He gets on the World podium in his first year in seniors because quads are seen as king. And then after complaints about his lack of aesthetics and skating skills, Boyang and his fed declare that they recognize he needs to become a better overall skater. So like the cart leading the horse, everyone chips in to help train Boyang to be a better skater after he already landed on the World podium, because Chinese fed puts up the bucks to fund their skating programs.

Meanwhile, Max Aaron is largely putting his own money toward training and improving as a skater. And Max has tried everything to excel. He hasn't always made the best choices, and he's been inconsistent technically while he's been so focused on trying to improve aesthetically. No matter his efforts to improve, Max continues to be looked down on and overly criticized. Max is apparently supposed to be happy for even making the podium, when at this woeful competition, a case could be made that Max should have at least won the silver medal overall. Max deserved better PCS scores, because his components truthfully aren't far off Boyang's actual abilities.

It doesn't matter that Boyang's PCS dropped in the fp -- his PCS scores should have never been that high in the sp. His SS score is still a joke in the fp. No way! In fact, Boyang should have landed at least behind Max Aaron overall. Boyang's overly high PCS scores in both programs are what propped him up.

There are things in here that I agree with, but I'm not sure how you lead by underscoring your objectivity and then make an argument that is filled with emotional appeals. Sports are not fair--a lot has to do with natural abilities and we do not even the playing field. I'm not sure what Max paying his way has to do with this. We could argue in turn that Max is from a privileged nation and has been given many great advantages. There are many skaters with stories and we do not score them based on that.

Part of this sounds like a conspiracy theory where there is none. You identify a problem with quadsters but isn't that how Max made his name? The argument basically sounds like: Boyang did a better job of exactly what Max tried to do. Whether it's fair or the Chinese federation has put in too much money, etc. Boyang has been packaged better than Max. He's also shown improvements at a faster rate than Max. There may be something wrong with that from the "too bad the world is not fair" point of view but that has nothing to do with sports.

 

[Eclair]

The fact is that I do not base my comments on who my favorite skaters are. I look at things objectively and frankly, based on over 45 years of following this sport. Boyang's PCS in the fp were way too high because Boyang is Chinese fed's guy, and he's a quadster who the ISU was willing to over-reward right from the beginning. I have nothing against Boyang's character. He's a nice guy with some wonderful abilities and capacity for growth. But he's not a well-rounded skater. Like few skaters, he's been given the moon before he fully paid his dues. He gets on the World podium in his first year in seniors because quads are seen as king. And then after complaints about his lack of aesthetics and skating skills, Boyang and his fed declare that they recognize he needs to become a better overall skater. So like the cart leading the horse, everyone chips in to help train Boyang to be a better skater after he already landed on the World podium, because Chinese fed puts up the bucks to fund their skating programs.

Meanwhile, Max Aaron is largely putting his own money toward training and improving as a skater. And Max has tried everything to excel. He hasn't always made the best choices, and he's been inconsistent technically while he's been so focused on trying to improve aesthetically. No matter his efforts to improve, Max continues to be looked down on and overly criticized. Max is apparently supposed to be happy for even making the podium, when at this woeful competition, a case could be made that Max should have at least won the silver medal overall. Max deserved better PCS scores, because his components truthfully aren't far off Boyang's actual abilities.

It doesn't matter that Boyang's PCS dropped in the fp -- his PCS scores should have never been that high in the sp. His SS score is still a joke in the fp. No way! In fact, Boyang should have landed at least behind Max Aaron overall. Boyang's overly high PCS scores in both programs are what propped him up.

yeah that really sounds like you don't play favorites at all! 'Chinese fed's guy' who got 'big bucks behind him' vs. poor Max, who is doing everything on his own. Because Chinese fed was so good at politicking for their skaters in the past? *sarcasm*

Why didn't Yan Han then get a PCS boost when Boyang was still in juniors? Why didn't Zijun get higher PCS in 2014-2017? She was the feds single ladies skater favorite.

Why didn't Boyang's PCS rise the same way Nathan's PCS rose in their first senior season? If you want to accuse federations to politick successfully for skater's PCS, Chinese fed would be my last choice, lol.

Elizaveta got world champions PCS the season she landed the 3axel. Boyang didn't even get Kolyada PCS as a 2 times bronze medalist or the season he landed the 4lutz-3toe. And Kolyada is no Patrick Chan either.

You're acting like Kolyada and Max got underscored because they're from a small powerless federation, while Boyang is from that big powerful federation who has all the money and power.

78 PCS on his home GP while Kolyada got 87 is no home inflation. out of all great examples of recent home-inflations, this isn't one.

 

[Mathman]

Why didn't Zijun get higher PCS in 2014-2017?

That is the very question I was asking myself for three years.

 

[Amei]

This program is very random

Well his 'burst onto the scene" skate was with music to The Nightmare Before Christmas....What did you expect?

 

[Eclair]

That is the very question I was asking myself for three years.

and now she is injured and had to withdraw from her first GP

 

[OS]

Ha! Of all PCS complaints, lol Boyang got China boost with his massive 78.78 (down from 78.80 last year)? 6th among the men behind Kenji even with 2nd highest tech content in the field? Lol really? I guess reputation as 2 times world bronze medalist shouldn't matter AT ALL even when skate at home, never mind this is the same event Javier received almost 90 in pcs for a stomach ache (Why is ISU putin out report like this? Have they ever done these for any other skaters?), and Kolyada received 87 put out these?.

I feel your complaints may have been motivated by the fact Grant is generally undermarked in PCS but that shouldn't have anything to do with how Boyang has been marked when he is pretty much behind everyone else even at home, and his PCS hasn't changed from last year, still @ 78. Consider how everyone skated out, Han Yan is the one that seems tad undermarked, when they could have totally reward him if this 'Chinese boost' thing is real.

 

[rabbit1234]

2016-2017 PCS

126.99 ＝ SP 40.99 ＋ FP 86.00 ： Boyang JIN ISU World Figure Skating Championships 2017
124.00 ＝ SP 41.86 ＋ FP 82.14 ： Boyang JIN ISU World Team Trophy 2017
117.95 ＝ SP 39.15 ＋ FP 78.80 ： Boyang JIN ISU GP Audi Cup of ＣHina 2016
117.51 ＝ SP 40.07 ＋ FP 77.44 ： Boyang JIN ISU Four Continents Championships 2017
115.25 ＝ SP 37.05 ＋ FP 78.20 ： Max AARON 2016 Autumn Classic International
115.04 ＝ SP 37.04 ＋ FP 78.00 ： Boyang JIN ISU GP 2016 Progressive Skate America
114.26 ＝ SP 37.50 ＋ FP 76.76 ： Max AARON ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2016
114.05 ＝ SP 37.77 ＋ FP 76.28 ： Max AARON ISU GP Audi Cup of ＣHina 2016
111.60 ＝ SP 36.40 ＋ FP 75.20 ： Max AARON 2016 CS Lombardia Trophy


2017-2018 PCS

120.00 ＝ SP 41.22 ＋ FP 78.78 ： Boyang JIN ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
118.59 ＝ SP 38.61 ＋ FP 79.98 ： Max AARON ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
118.25 ＝ SP 37.65 ＋ FP 80.60 ： Max AARON 2017 US International Figure Skating Classic
116.45 ＝ SP 39.43 ＋ FP 77.02 ： Boyang JIN Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2017

 

[Art&Sport]

Below are some reflections in response to the overwrought and/or dismissive responses to my earlier posts: To the poster OS who brought up Grant. Believe me, Grant was the farthest skater from my mind when I posted earlier. You've got to be kidding that I'm at all thinking about Grant's PCS! Not. Grant is in his final year and reportedly he's had to cut some of his training time because he's coaching to supplement his income for life expenses as well as skating expenses. He's not been performing up to his abilities this season in any case. Under those circumstances, I certainly never had any expectations of Grant being a factor at CoC. Much less is it of any importance to me to compare Grant's PCS with anyone else's at this comp.

Yes, I only state things objectively how I see them, and with passion simply because I have been following the sport for so long because I love figure skating, but it's a frustrating sport. Obviously, the scoring is not about 'conspiracies,' but all of you are rather naive if you don't understand how political this sport actually is. There doesn't need to be any conspiracy when we know that the judges are all affiliated with different countries and therefore conflicting interests are always involved. The judging was kept anonymous for years for a reason. There have been a number of judging scandals over the years, which doesn't mean that most of the judges don't try to do their best with the complicated and messy IJS/COP. Nothing was a conspiracy at CoC, and I'm not complaining about any 'conspiracy theories'. Far from it. But that always seems to be the 'go-to' accusation by some fans when they object to or don't understand another fan's comments about political scoring and inaccurate scoring on PCS.

That politics are involved in the scoring is nothing new. It's been that way forever in figure skating. Of course the Chinese fed backs their quad-talented skater in Jin Boyang and expect him to get on the podium and they support him politically in that effort. And they are going to do all they can to help talent. I was simply pointing out how Boyang's success came down quickly due to his quad abilities rather than any prodigious skating talent. I think it's rather curious and indicative of the quad era that Boyang's success was mainly based on his jumping ability, and then after making the World podium he's being helped to improve his skating and presentation skills. In the past, a skater at least had to be a bit more well-rounded before making the podium. And I think that's how it should be rather than the other way around, no matter what country you come from as a skater! Whatever! The quad has changed a lot of things in men's figure skating.

As I said, it's the quad factor and Boyang's jumping ability that bounded him to the top before he actually had the skating skills to back him up. There's nothing wrong with his fed putting everything into helping him improve. There are advantages and disadvantages to the reality of being fully funded by your federation. That generally means you have less power over your own decisionmaking. Still, it is interesting to examine the differences among countries today in how skaters are developed, funded, packaged, etc. I'm stating the facts, not saying that Max needs in any way to be pitied. The U.S. is vastly different in how their skating system is set up, and in fact the U.S. is somewhat behind the times in its organization and competitive structure and selection process, just like the ISU is in the way they run the sport.

The scoring has always been based not only on what the skaters do on the ice, but on buzz and status quo rep and politics. And how much the judges believe in and trust a skater. Clearly Russian fed is adept at politics (and they are always preparing their skaters to excel in the lead-up to an Olympics), plus there's that Russian aesthetic tradiition that's often blindly over-valued by the sport. As well, Canada has a lot of talented skaters and reputable political power. Japan has respected political power because a lot of the money and fan interest, as well as top level skating talent is in Japan. Meanwhile, the U.S. has never been adept politically, but they did have more power and influence during the era of U.S. television contracts, which doesn't exist anymore. The U.S. also lost a lot of political influence and status with the ISU after the Ron Pfenning led coup attempt in 2003 in the aftermath of the 2002 SLC judging scandal.

On the positive side, the U.S. has always welcomed skaters and coaches all over the world to come to the U.S. to take advantage of the variety of training resources available here. Certainly, the U.S. ice dance program has benefited from Russian ice dance coaches making a difference here with young, talented skaters over the past 30 years or so. It's actually a good thing how the sport has become so global, and I think there needs to be more cooperative and global efforts. We see a lot how the growth of the sport is benefited by skaters being able to partner with skaters from other countries (and this has especially benefited and influenced ice dance, and to some extent, pairs). In fact, I think the country over-emphasis in the sport should change with it's heavy reliance on country affiliation rather than talent in how the competitive selection process is handled.

The sport needs to provide more opportunities to all skaters, as there is increasing depth in all the disciplines, but a lack of competitive opportunites and chances to be rewarded and to build competitive experience and momentum. Clearly, U.S. skaters have more options to either skate or not to skate if they can't make steady progress in the sport, whereas in Russia, skating can be a skater's main ticket to a better life, or at least it has been that way for many Russian skaters. In Japan, the sport is very different and skaters are treated like rock stars. That has never been the case in the U.S. which I find fascinating, but not something I'm looking at judgmentally one way or the other.

As you can see, I don't talk in soundbites. I recognize that the issues and problematic challenges involved in this sport are complex and not easily solvable. Too many fans just accept what happens and shrug it off or make excuses for it. I don't do that. There's a lot going on both behind the scenes and underneath the surface that too often no one wants to address head-on. Bottom line: Boyang's PCS are a tad overly high because he's respected for his quads and he's seen as one of the big time players who could land on the podium at the Olympics. But this showing at CoC is a low point for both Boyang and the sport. And I include Kolyada in that assessment because neither came out and fought like they wanted to win, and yet they were still overly rewarded. I also question Kolyada being in third at Cup of Russia over Misha Ge. As well, some of the other guys tanked at CoC. Or some guys were better in one program or the other. It's gotten overshadowed how well Kevin Reynolds skated in the fp, after putting himself in the dungeon in the sp. Grant wasn't able to maximize his abilities to any notable degree here (and I had no expectations that he would). Tanaka skated a bit over his abilities, what with now having some fairly decent quads in his arsenal.

Meanwhile, what I have also tried to point out in regard to CoC and just in general, is that I think Max's efforts to improve his aesthetics are not fully appreciated. Part of that is due to the fact that he faltered in being consistent with his quads over the past few years. And because the U.S. men have so much depth that the fed has not been behind any one particular guy to the exclusion of everyone else. The U.S. fed has also struggled with how to handle the quad vs complete skater conundrum, since their best skaters in recent years have been inconsistent on quads. It's not that the U.S. has lagged so much in men who can perform quads. Timothy Goebel was the first man to perform 3 quads in a fp. Brandon Mroz was the first man to land a quad lutz in competition. Even Evan Lysacek landed quads on a number of occasions, including a quad-triple at 2007 U.S. Nationals (although Evan is consistently blamed for not performing a quad at 2010 Olympics, when few men there did). Through the years, U.S. men have been instrumental in pioneering the quad. If you are young and new to the sport, you might not know that unless you study the history.

I mean fine if Javi had stomach problems. Still suck it up, and don't use that as an excuse for skating poorly. He's skated poorly before, but not with quite as many mistakes as he had at CoC. After winning Worlds two years in a row, and spectacularly in 2016, Javi found himself off the podium in 2017 because he simply didn't perform well. I say this at the same time that I like Javi and I enjoy his good performances and I root for him. He's very likeable and obviously the entire sport has adopted him as a loveable favorite. Most likely Javi had some pressure to perform in order to make the GPF as one of the sport's huge stars. But if he wasn't well, he shouldn't have gone out there. It's counterproductive, and benefits no one.

TBH, I'm not particularly a huge rabid fan of Max Aaron like someone here, but I do support Max and all of the U.S. men who are fun to watch (regardless of quads). Some of the U.S. men I enjoy watching the most are Alexander Johnson and Sean Rabbitt who don't have quads. So the point is that I comment with strong opinions because I'm looking at everything that goes on in this sport objectively. You can think what you will about some of my comments that can be easily misconstrued and misinterpreted on an Internet forum. There's really a lot that's going on in this sport that actually should be addressed, debated, and examined in a thoughtful and intelligent way. But that usually doesn't happen, especially not on Internet forums. And the suggestion that U.S. skaters are somehow better off financially is not true. The majority of them do not come from rich families, despite the perception that they do. The U.S. should not be seen as big-bad U.S. with all these advantages. Every skater in the U.S. as well as in other countries need to be looked at on an individual basis regarding their particular backgrounds and circumstances. There are certain generalizations about how different countries programs operate, but we should all be careful about making too many generalizations.

In addition, I would have to say that the skaters I have been a huge fan of over the years are no longer skating. These days, I tend to enjoy a lot of skaters regardless of country. And I do support many U.S. skaters, because I'm more familiar with them. But I am realistic about every skater's strengths and weaknesses. I was a big fan of Dai Takahashi, and I liked Hanyu a lot in the beginning. But he lost me with the sport's overemphasis on his quads to the detriment of him working on building his overall aesthetics. I think Hanyu has fabulous quads when he's on, but he's over-rated artistically. The skaters I have been the biggest fan of have been Babilonia/Gardner, Michelle Kwan and Johnny Weir. Plus I've enjoyed Midori Ito, Chen Lu, Meno/Sand, Brian Boitano, Pang/Tong, Gordeeva/Grinkov, Paul Wylie, Salle/Pelletier, Anissina/Peizarat, Shen/Zhao, Davis/White, Dai Takahashi, Takahiko Kosuka, Savchenko/Szolkowy, Jeremy Abbott, as well as currently competing skaters Adam Rippon, Jason Brown, Nathan Chen, Alexander Johnson, Alexandrovsky/Windsor, Hawayek/Baker, Duhamel/Radford, James/Cipres, Denis Ten, Deniss Vasiljevs, Papadakis/Cizeron, Hubbell/Donahue, the Shibs, Gilles/Poirier, Weaver/Poje, et al. But as I said, I mostly enjoy the sport as a whole these days, and I like watching a lot of skaters. And I look at the complexities in total, while filtering the hype and the status quo with a strong lens.

 

[rabbit1234]

2017-2018　　BV

159.40 ＝ SP 50.31 ＋ FP 109.09 ： Shoma UNO 10th Lombardia Trophy 2017
153.56 ＝ SP 49.29 ＋ FP 104.27 ： Vincent ZHOU ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
149.85 ＝ SP 53.98 ＋ FP 95.87 ： Nathan CHEN ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
148.30 ＝ SP 50.73 ＋ FP 97.57 ： Boyang JIN ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
147.90 ＝ SP 47.41 ＋ FP 100.49 ： Shoma UNO ISU GP 2017 Skate Canada International
141.02 ＝ SP 45.19 ＋ FP 95.83 ： Vincent ZHOU Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2017
139.34 ＝ SP 47.80 ＋ FP 91.54 ： Boyang JIN Finlandia Trophy Espoo 2017
138.49 ＝ SP 39.25 ＋ FP 99.24 ： Mikhail KOLYADA ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
136.13 ＝ SP 47.05 ＋ FP 89.08 ： Max AARON 2017 US International Figure Skating Classic
135.38 ＝ SP 46.91 ＋ FP 88.47 ： Yuzuru HANYU ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
134.33 ＝ SP 44.15 ＋ FP 90.18 ： Max AARON ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
131.45 ＝ SP 44.83 ＋ FP 86.62 ： Moris KVITELASHVILI ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
131.42 ＝ SP 49.95 ＋ FP 81.47 ： Mikhail KOLYADA ISU GP Audi Cup of China 2017
130.76 ＝ SP 41.60 ＋ FP 89.16 ： Yaroslav PANIOT 2017 US International Figure Skating Classic
129.54 ＝ SP 47.05 ＋ FP 82.49 ： Nam NGUYEN ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
127.98 ＝ SP 47.29 ＋ FP 80.69 ： Alexander SAMARIN ISU GP 2017 Skate Canada International
127.52 ＝ SP 46.55 ＋ FP 80.97 ： Nam NGUYEN 2017 Autumn Classic International
125.38 ＝ SP 31.00 ＋ FP 94.38 ： Mikhail KOLYADA 25th Ondrej Nepela Trophy
124.82 ＝ SP 42.66 ＋ FP 82.16 ： Nathan CHEN 2017 US International Figure Skating Classic
124.04 ＝ SP 43.15 ＋ FP 80.89 ： Dmitri ALIEV ISU GP Rostelecom Cup 2017
122.96 ＝ SP 37.70 ＋ FP 85.26 ： Yaroslav PANIOT ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2017

Vincent ZHOU
Nathan CHEN
The United States is now a technical leader.
The BV top of this competition was Vincent ZHOU.

As far as PCS is concerned, now there is a high score for excellent competitors even without quad like Jason.

 

[Art&Sport]

All the freaking numbers are over-rated as far as I'm concerned, although I understand young skating fans obsession and over-focus on the numbers. That's what you have to work with, despite the fact that the numbers are at essence, meaningless in terms of actual individual skaters' talents, performance ability and potential. But yeah, the ISU has fed and fostered this notion of the importance of the numbers with terminology such as SB, PB, GOE, base value, PCS, TES, IJS/COP, levels, etc.

I have always trusted my eyes and my continuously developing and expanding knowledge of the sport, rather than getting too caught up in the numbers. Unfortunately, with such heavy emphasis on the numbers it becomes harder to stay detached from the hypocrisy of the numbers. It's quite obvious that most of the time PCS are kept with in a range, and are generally inaccurate and always debatable, but not worth debating because they are written in stone and can't be changed. The way the current judging system was instituted and why is part of the huge problems this sport has faced since the SLC Olympic scandal in 2002.

 

[rabbit1234]

All the freaking numbers are over-rated as far as I'm concerned, although I understand young skating fans obsession and over-focus on the numbers. That's what you have to work with, despite the fact that the numbers are at essence, meaningless in terms of actual individual skaters' talents, performance ability and potential. But yeah, the ISU has fed and fostered this notion of the importance of the numbers with terminology such as SB, PB, GOE, base value, PCS, TES, IJS/COP, levels, etc.

I have always trusted my eyes and my continuously developing and expanding knowledge of the sport, rather than getting too caught up in the numbers. Unfortunately, with such heavy emphasis on the numbers it becomes harder to stay detached from the hypocrisy of the numbers. It's quite obvious that most of the time PCS are kept with in a range, and are generally inaccurate and always debatable, but not worth debating because they are written in stone and can't be changed. The way the current judging system was instituted and why is part of the huge problems this sport has faced since the SLC Olympic scandal in 2002.

PCS is not the same as artistic impression. Skating skills etc. should be discussed for each item.
Also, I can not understand what "The way the current judging system was instituted and why is part of the huge problems this sport has faced since the SLC Olympic scandal in 2002.”

Under the 6.0 point system, figure skating was a limited closed competition in which medals were monopolized in competitors in Europe and America, Canada.
I think that now, Europe and America and Canada, as well as Asian countries got medals and I think that it became a more transparent worldwide sports. Various countries such as Malaysia and North Korea are working on this sport in Asia as well.
The 6.0 point system is a system that gives judges wide discretion and can not verify the reasons for the scoring later, and political and uncertain scoring has been done.
I think that now it is becoming a more fair system.

Regarding popularity of figure skating in Europe etc, I think that it is rather a problem of ladies.
There have been no technological progress for 40 years since Kristi Yamaguchi and MIDORI ITO in 1980.
They are competing for distinguishing trivial GOEs, I think that it is difficult to understand as a competition from the outside and it is boring.

 

[Ender]

The reality is the numbers don’t speak much. They can be manipulated just like 6.0 era.

 

[icybear]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! Even in the short program, what was Boyang doing with PCS scores that close to Mikhail Kolyada??? :noshake: :disagree:

Yes, the venue is in China. But if that's part of the scoring then both Jason Brown and Adam Rippon should have placed 1 and 2 over Shoma Uno at Skate America last season, especially with the fact that Shoma camouflages his tech weaknesses (pre-rotations, flutzes, poor jump technique). And last season, Shoma did not have good ice coverage in one of his programs -- too much of it was performed at one end of the ice.

So, bottom line, if we are going to use politics and home venue as part of the scoring, then state it in the rules, and not be so sneaky and surreptitious. Boyang is simply put: Chinese fed's guy. He's the one they want on the podium and he's the one they are pushing. There sat Boyang in the kiss 'n cry sweating bullets because he knew how poorly he had skated the fp, and that he didn't deserve to be on the podium. For that fp performance, Boyang shoud have landed at least behind Max Aaron and maybe Vincent Zhou as well. But yeah, the event did take place in China, and it was important to ensure that Boyang got on the podium no matter how poorly he skated in the fp. However, since Boyang had been so overscored on PCS in the sp and again overscored in the fp (even despite his PCS dropping slightly), he was able to squeak past Max and stay in first place. The arena erupted, and some of those shouts were boos and disbelief.

Kolyada is the real deal, but he needs to show it consistently on the ice. How can you go out there in first place and lay an egg because two previous competitors laid eggs? Kolyada too was over-rewarded in the fp , even despite his flashes of brilliance in the fp. None of these skaters need to be smirky and act like they deserve something from the judges. Kolyada and Boyang needed to be sent a message that skating good in one program and poorly in another isn't good enough to land on the podium above another skater who skated well in both programs! It was already pushing it that Kolyada fell 3 times in the fp at Cup of Russia, and still won the bronze medal over Misha Ge.




Absolutely! Me too! I love Han Yan, and furthermore he's a much better all-around skater than Boyang. IOW Yan has better skating skills and aesthetic qualities than Boyang. But Yan lost prestige in Boyang's quad wake. This despite the fact Yan can also land quads and has much better skating skills. The difference is the quad-lutz-triple combo and 3 more quads than Yan.

Too much quad deification, over manipulation of the scoring and inability to understand the sport, and lack of ability to score PCS fairly.

Lol I find your argument laughable. Boyang Sp PCS has always been around 2pts or so behind Kolyada - Worlds 2017 so saying his Sp PCs is home inflated is a joke. So Aaron loss to Boyang by around 5 pts. So apparently to you the Chinese fed inflated his PCS to surpass Aaron. Let's say we took off that 5 pts of PCs "inflation" that makes his PCS 73 pts which is around what Boyang got in his first ever senior competition. I know this is probably the first time you've ever watched Boyang only because he beaten your american skaters and you wanted to find something to accuse of inflation but rest assure you his PCS now is never going to be as bad as his first competition. If the Isu really wanted to inflate Boyang because of his quads, then he would have won over Chan in Coc and 4cc last year and not lose by a suspicious just over a point or so. There's no need to be so hateful just because you wanted Americans to win. Also there's no such thing as home inflation at Cup of China because the Chinese fed isn't strong enough to make the judges inflate their own skaters. Just look at Zijun li getting pcs lowballed at home each year. When it comes to Skate America this year you'll see what home inflation really mean when the USfed try to push as much US skaters into the GPF as possible. Also i find it amusing how americans love to cry home inflation when they're one of the best Fed in doing it like how a splat fest Gracie Gold was ranked higher than Sakato at worlds 2016. And also don't pretend to like Han Yan just so you can find more ways to hate on Boyang. Your comment has made my day.

 

[asiacheetah]

Did the ISU put out that Nathan had a boot problem after 2017 Worlds?! Nope. Nathan Chen sucked it up, did the best he could and took it on the chin!

I have no idea what ISU put out regarding Nathan's boot problems during WC, but it's not exactly a secret. It was talked about extensively by TV broadcast before and during the competition. And not just by US broadcast. It was mentioned in Canadian and British broadcasts.

 

[tureis]

I think it's rather curious and indicative of the quad era that Boyang's success was mainly based on his jumping ability, and then after making the World podium he's being helped to improve his skating and presentation skills. In the past, a skater at least had to be a bit more well-rounded before making the podium.

This is nothing new and not even unique to the men's field and the current quad era. Think Tara Lipinski, with her 3-3 combos, but minuscule jumps and childlike presentation, and still vaulted to World and Olympic titles without ever becoming a well rounded skater.

I mean fine if Javi had stomach problems. Still suck it up, and don't use that as an excuse for skating poorly. He's skated poorly before, but not with quite as many mistakes as he had at CoC. After winning Worlds two years in a row, and spectacularly in 2016, Javi found himself off the podium in 2017 because he simply didn't perform well. I say this at the same time that I like Javi and I enjoy his good performances and I root for him. He's very likeable and obviously the entire sport has adopted him as a loveable favorite. Most likely Javi had some pressure to perform in order to make the GPF as one of the sport's huge stars. But if he wasn't well, he shouldn't have gone out there. It's counterproductive, and benefits no one.

I actually prefer to hear the reason when world champions suddenly produce the worst skate of their lives. Just like last week with Patrick.

And as painful as it was to see this skate from Javi, I don't agree that he should have withdrawn. He's an athlete, his job is to go out there and try. I'm sure he or his team didn't expect him to do quite this bad, but now that it happened, there are always lessons to take away from everything, including this skate.

 

[Jaana]

Will Javier withdraw from FRA like Patrick did or will he be there and try to redeem himself?

I´d suppose that his reported stomach problems will be over long before that event.

Well, the stomach problem the ISU also reported would mostly explain Javi's disastrous showing at least. But the entire men's event was depressing overall.

 

[Eclair]

whole post

if you initial intention was to criticize the general unfair PCS scoring, then you probably should have phrased your initial posts differently.

I quote you here:
'if we are going to use politics and home venue as part of the scoring, then state it in the rules, and not be so sneaky and surreptitious. Boyang is simply put: Chinese fed's guy. He's the one they want on the podium and he's the one they are pushing. '
and the whole post goes this way.

I get that you don't dislike Boyang personally, but really, Boyang's scores at Cup of China in no home-inflation. If anything, it's proof how ineffective Chinese fed politicking is.

The 'Chinese fed's no.1 boy'(your words), who's 2-time world bronze medalist and skating on HOME ice getting less PCS than the US's no '4 or 5th guy' (Max), who was NOT clean and who isn't exactly known to get high PCS at US nationals or any other competition either.

that's a pretty weird example for home-inflation and inflated PCS scores, that you chose. If you want a recent decent example, I'd suggest Wakaba's PCS compared to Alina's PCS to you for a start.

 

[Mathman]

I was simply pointing out how Boyang's success came down quickly due to his quad abilities rather than any prodigious skating talent. I think it's rather curious and indicative of the quad era that Boyang's success was mainly based on his jumping ability, and then after making the World podium he's being helped to improve his skating and presentation skills. In the past, a skater at least had to be a bit more well-rounded before making the podium. And I think that's how it should be rather than the other way around, no matter what country you come from as a skater! Whatever! The quad has changed a lot of things in men's figure skating.

Interesting analysis. To me, it is the opposite. Jin's jumping prowess has somewhat disguised his evident skating skills and performance ability. He is just now starting to get the PCS that he deserves. That is just a natural progression and does not say anything about politics, IMHO.

For the second part, it seemed to me that the jumps always came first. Every year there was a new youthful "jumping bean" (Michelle Kwan, for instance) who wowed everyone. The hope was that this raw talent could be refined later on -- sometimes yes, sometimes no.