2017 GP Cup of China Mens SP

[Mrs. P]

So I"m snail crawling watching videos due to a busy day, so I watch Misha's video. The jumps were super amazing, including the 4Lutz. But I think the PCS was a tad bit high. I think he has good speed, ice coverage and technical aspects to justify solid PCS (and the jumps actually integrated into the choreography pretty nicely), but I didn't feel like he actually did much interpretation to the music or truly performed the program. I'm thinking maybe more like 41.5 or 42. There's no dispute that he deserved a 100+ score (or first place), just nitpicking at how much over.

 

[ice coverage]

There was an American judge who did the same at Worlds 2016 after Mirai Nagasu's fs right in your face at the KnC.

Conflicts of interest, but there you have it. ...

It was the short program sorry.

https://youtu.be/Sl8z-QIBonY?t=258

https://s1.postimg.org/7nh2c4xhtb/wendy_enzmann.png

This lady is Wendy Enzmann, she wasn't a judge at that event (and ironically Mirai didn't receive huge scores there if you remember) ...

She is also the team leader for USA in skating so that might explain the hug, but same goes for Alla Shekhovtseva (which is still a judge by the way) with Sotnikova. How can a person that involved with these skaters also be a fair neutral judge?

There are way too many conflicts of interest in Figure Skating.

....

I am not one who ever complained about Sotnikova and Shekhovtseva -- but a important point here is that Shekhovtseva *was* a judge of the Ladies FS in Sochi. And thus her judging played a direct role (along with the judging of eight others) in Sotnikova's Olympic gold medal.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/SEG004OF.HTM​

Huge difference from your example of Mirai.

ETA:

PLUS the video does not even show any hug btwn Mirai and Enzmann.

The hug is btwn Enzmann and Coach Tom. And I don't see any ethical issue with the team leader giving a hug to a coach from the team.​

 

[rabbit1234]

I think that figure skating is not well prepared for keeping the fairness of the judges and fairness of the competition environment compared with other sports.
Judges came with the competitor of the country to which the judges belong, and they take pictures with the competitor.
Judges may be uploading photos of competitor to SNS.
In this situation, if you widen the discretion of judges such as GOE and PCS, discussion will occur about judgment each time even now, and I think that figure skating will be an opaque sport calling conflicts and doubts.

 

[Tolstoj]

I am not one who ever complained about Sotnikova and Shekhovtseva -- but a important point here is that Shekhovtseva *was* a judge of the Ladies FS in Sochi. And thus her judging played a direct role (along with the judging of eight others) in Sotnikova's gold medal.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/SEG004OF.HTM​

Huge difference from your example of Mirai.

I made other examples (Shin Amano - Patrick Chan) and you can find other good ones by yourself.

On that case you can help a skater even by boosting his/her PB few events before an important one, to build that perception: let's say you were a 60+ skater during you entire career but then at one event you got 75, at the next event if you skate clean you should receive a score close or even better your PB, which is now 15 points higher thanks to that event.

So in the end it's not that different.

My point though was more on the system in general and not defending Alla Shekhovtseva

- If you are a coach, team leader, whatever role that makes you involved with certain skaters you can't ever be a judge. This is a clear conflict of interest.

- You have to decide: coach or judge? and if you are a former coach you can't be a judge either.

That's my opinion.

PS: Sorry for the huge OT.

 

[ice coverage]

... My point though was more on the system in general.

- If you are a coach, team leader, whatever role that makes you involved with certain skaters you can't be in the panel at the same time. This is a clear conflict of interest.

- You have to decide: coach or judge? and if you are a former coach you can't be a judge either.

PS: Sorry for the huge OT.

I edited my post above to add that Enzmann did not even hug Mirai.

Enzmann was holding Mirai's skate guards and handed them to Mirai. That was their only interaction.

Enzmann then hugged Coach Tom.

I agree that the system in general could be a whole 'nother discussion.

But I still take issue with your reference to Mirai.
The hug btwn Coach Tom and Enzmann is not at all comparable to the hug btwn Sotnikova and Shekhovtseva.

 

[karne]

Expanding on a thought from last night.

I am so tired of the inconsistency when it comes to preceding steps before the solo jump. That was why I was mad at Hanretty last night. Because I watched from Zhou onward, and the only two skaters he called out for not having preceding steps - specifically mentioned it in the slo-mo replays and targeted it - were Max and Boyang, when Zhou, Tanaka, and Kolyada also did not have preceding steps. (In fact, Hanretty was the one who remarked "+3!" for Kolyada's solo quad Lutz!). It was kind of obvious that Hanretty was playing favourites in his mentioning of it.

And it reflects the overall marking of it. Kolyada's protocol in particular is a mess for that 4Lz because some judges have chosen to ignore the fact that you're supposed to dock for no preceding steps, and some have chosen to do so. And generally, the bigger the name, the more likely they are to get away with not having preceding steps. I've been mad for years seeing clean quads from Brendan get docked to -2s and -3s because no preceding steps, while other skaters at the same comps do the same thing and get regular GOE for it.

I just want some consistency. If you're going to call out one skater for no steps, call them all out. If you're going to mark down one skater for no steps, mark them all down. None of this piecemeal stuff.

And yeah, Max has no preceding steps. Well aware of that. Would be totally fine with it being mentioned/him being marked down for it if everyone else was too.

 

[Tolstoj]

I edited my post above to add that Enzmann did not even hug Mirai.

Enzmann was holding Mirai's skate guards and handed them to Mirai. That was their only interaction.

Enzmann then hugged Coach Tom.

I agree that the system in general could be a whole 'nother discussion.

But I still take issue with your reference to Mirai.
The hug btwn Coach Tom and Enzmann is not at all comparable to the hug btwn Sotnikova and Shekhovtseva.

The hug between a coach and a judge or between a skater and a judge is that different? i don't think so but anyway, don't focus on the detail

Think about: the team leader of USA in figure skating is also a long time judge at ISU events including Worlds and Olympics. (to clarifiy as i said, this is just one example) Is it fair?

In my opinion it is not, and this is not legal on other sports. Just that.

 

[karne]

This is Vincent's first outing as a senior in the Grand Prix so I'd cut him some slack. It's hard transitioning from Junior to senior look how Marin is struggling.

Okay, so I saw this comment last night but didn't have a moment to respond to it, so I will now.

Sorry, but no, this argument doesn't fly. Weren't the Zhou fans all carrying on like pork chops about how great he would have done at Senior Worlds if only USFS let him go? And now that he didn't skate so well it's because "the transition to senior is rough"? C'mon, you can't have it both ways, guys.

 

[ice coverage]

The hug between a coach and a judge or between a skater and a judge is that different? i don't think so but anyway, don't focus on the detail

Think about: the team leader of USA in figure skating is also a long time judge at ISU events including Worlds and Olympics. Is it fair?

In my opinion it is not, and this is not legal on other sports. Just that.

It is no less fair than what is happening with other skating federations.
So I wish you would stop pointing your biggest finger at Mirai and the U.S. (although you have mentioned other countries).

Again, the big difference (IMO) is that Shekhovtseva hugged Sotnikova immediately after Shekhovtseva had just finished judging Sotnikova and the other ladies in Sochi.

That "detail" is a very important point (IMO).

That's all I have to say. Not going to keep going around in circles.

 

[Yatagarasu]

That was why I was mad at Hanretty last night. Because I watched from Zhou onward, and the only two skaters he called out for not having preceding steps - specifically mentioned it in the slo-mo replays and targeted it - were Max and Boyang, when Zhou, Tanaka, and Kolyada also did not have preceding steps. (In fact, Hanretty was the one who remarked "+3!" for Kolyada's solo quad Lutz!). It was kind of obvious that Hanretty was playing favourites in his mentioning of it.

Yeah, but Mark Hanretty is a joke. The man is so biased that it's incredible. His, and the whole team's, Shoma stuff alone is enough to show that. I honestly wonder if they truly think that we don't know about Chris Howarth's connection to Shoma or what. Anyway, yeah, don't expect anything from that guy. He'll push his favorites quite blatantly without a care in the world. Today was quite obvious, with the whole steps things. Some part of me hopes we'll hear him again, simply to expose him more but on the other hand, a lot of folks don't know enough to judge for themselves and rely on him and Simon and Chris to tell them things. Ah well.

 

[3T3T]

That was an amazing 4Lz from Kolyada. He definitely deserved to be 100+. I thought he captured the slow music well but not the tango part so much. I liked Tanaka and Yan also. I preferred Hockstein of the Americans. Disappointed for Petrov.

 

[Mrs. P]

Mark Hanretty is also the guy who basically try to paint the Shibs as shady people, so I don't hold much regard for him either. Also it's worth mentioning Hanretty is an ice dancer, so how much knowledge would he have about preceding steps requirements? It would be like Ryan Bradley trying to explain key steps in a pattern dance. I say that not to give him a pass but I suspect he doesn't fully understand those rules either.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Oh yes totally forgot that he fell.

Am i wrong or lack of steps should be reduced by 3?

Though it's still confusing what is defined as steps, because i see many skaters doing a couple of turns on their solo 4s or 4f, and those to me are hardly considerable as steps.



Lack of steps on the 4ltz (the solo non-axel jump has to have steps going in).

He has a great technique on the axel.

Yeah, I edited my initial post after re-watching Zhou's skate... there was a break before the 4F but it wasn't devoid of steps... he had some tricky turns going down the ice, but there was a "break" before the 4F, which could have reduced the GOE a bit. If there are no preceding steps it's -3 reduction, so the judges were very kind indeed to Kolyada's lutz, even though the jump itself was amazing.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Okay, so I saw this comment last night but didn't have a moment to respond to it, so I will now.

Sorry, but no, this argument doesn't fly. Weren't the Zhou fans all carrying on like pork chops about how great he would have done at Senior Worlds if only USFS let him go? And now that he didn't skate so well it's because "the transition to senior is rough"? C'mon, you can't have it both ways, guys.

I think he's handling the transition to seniors well actually, in that his skating is amazing and he has senior choreography. Like, he doesn't skate like a junior just turned senior, IMO. And certainly he has the highest senior-level difficulty (that 4Z+3Trippon was awesome!). At Worlds last year, he didn't have to deal with the demands of this year's programs, so I think the ambitiousness of his first outing resulted in errors.

People were just worried about Senior Worlds because Brown didn't (and still doesn't) have a consistent quad, so it stands to say that the guy who landed a ton of quads at Nationals, even as a junior, would be considered more favourable. Thankfully Brown did enough to earn the 3 spots with Chen.

Zhou's doing fine so far (I mean, the axel error is a bad senior error to make, but I cut him slack for falling on a quad flip in his first senior GP). Also, some US men took a few seasons to crack 80 points in their Grand Prixs and Zhou has already done so, so that's a good sign.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I was just kidding, xeyra. Thing about Kolyada is, he will be a contender if he consistently delivers, but I am not very confident in him. He certainly has the goods, and I think Europe should be very happy that he's had a wonderful outing like this, because I think the future of men's skating looks seriously bleak at the moment. I almost hope Javier continues after the Olympics.

I don't have a ton of confidence in him as well, but after some really shaky skating a few weeks ago, he has gotten his act together. Gotta give credit where it's due, he laid it DOWN.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think he's handling the transition to seniors well actually, in that his skating is amazing and he has senior choreography. Like, he doesn't skate like a junior just turned senior, IMO. And certainly he has the highest senior-level difficulty (that 4Z+3Trippon was awesome!). At Worlds last year, he didn't have to deal with the demands of this year's programs, so I think the ambitiousness of his first outing resulted in errors.

People were just worried about Senior Worlds because Brown didn't (and still doesn't) have a consistent quad, so it stands to say that the guy who landed a ton of quads at Nationals, even as a junior, would be considered more favourable. Thankfully Brown did enough to earn the 3 spots with Chen.

Zhou's doing fine so far (I mean, the axel error is a bad senior error to make, but I cut him slack for falling on a quad flip in his first senior GP). Also, some US men took a few seasons to crack 80 points in their Grand Prixs and Zhou has already done so, so that's a good sign.

FWIW, Jason also got over 80 (I think it was 83) on his first GP.

I haven't seen Vincent's SP yet, so can't comment on the actual performance. My only take is that, so far, the scores don't indicate that he's an absolute lock for one of the spots RIGHT NOW. He has yet to outscore Jason, even with all those quads, let alone Nathan. He's not even outscoring Max at this point. I don't mind cutting him slack, but looking at raw numbers, Vincent doesn't have solid "You should send me to the Olympics" case just yet.

Given his pattern of his last two competitions, however, I expect he'll move up.

 

[beki]

I'm softening toward Vincent after that SP. I can see he's working on the components and he already looks better than last year. Too many mistakes today, but I expect he will outscore Max going forward.

Kolyada! I've been thinking for a year or so that Javi should worry about him. He could steal the European crown.

So nice to see Keiji step up as Japanese #3. Good choreography and he sold it.

Boyang's program is so interesting. I think it challenges him. I'd love to see him perform it better as the season goes on.

The combo killed Javi. I hope he and Patrick can keep their fire going this year.

 

[bixby]

Icenetwork:

"Sometimes I skate well, sometimes not so well. I have been training well during the competition, but I was not able to do a great short program," Fernández said. "The judges did not seem to like my program as I received low component scores."

He actually thinks he deserve higher component scores. Say what??? The guy from Eurosport live stream thought he was marked base on reputation and so with many of us here.

I think his style of choreography is kind of stale after seeing it over and over, over the years. Like those judges, I didn't like it too. It's looking a bit cheesy now.

 

[Art&Sport]

Whoa, I have to say that I agree with all the placements if not with some of the scores. In the first group, the performances were scored fairly well. I would have given Kevin a bit more credit for performance ability. Tanaka was wonderful and deserved his placement, though I would have had him about 85 or 86 instead. It was close between Han Yan, Grant, and Vincent, but I think they got it right for the placements at least. Han deserved a bit more on components.

I think Boyang has improved a bit on his components, but he was still overscored a bit there. He shouldn't be that close to Kolyada on components. Javi should probably have been dinged a bit more. He's always overscored on component marks. He was not better on components than Kolyada. Javi is more like 44 or 45 if Kolyada is at 43+ on components. I would have had Boyang at 38 or 39 on components, particularly since Han Yan has much better skating skills than Boyang. Apparently quads are boosting Boyang's PCS this season, with the help of Lori Nichol. If Kolyada can keep skating like this (the best I've seen him skate), he will have to be reckoned with at the Olympics.

Figure skating, I wish I could quit ya! Even when the judging doesn't suck so much, it still sucks. :handw:

 

[Shayuki]

Icenetwork:

"Sometimes I skate well, sometimes not so well. I have been training well during the competition, but I was not able to do a great short program," Fernández said. "The judges did not seem to like my program as I received low component scores."

He actually thinks he deserve higher component scores. Say what??? The guy from Eurosport live stream thought he was marked base on reputation and so with many of us here.

I think his style of choreography is kind of stale after seeing it over and over, over the years. Like those judges, I didn't like it too. It's looking a bit cheesy now.

It's unbelievable, really. He skates a lackluster performance, gets incredibly high PCS and complains that they're too low? Some skaters really are entitled. I guess he thinks he can just skate around the ring, pop some jumps and get 9.75s.