2017 GP NHK Mens FS

[mrrice]

Patrick couldn't feel his legs in the LP. That's pretty physical... Have you ever missed connections and lost your luggage? I have. It does take a toll on the body when you are in a delayed plane, knowing you may miss your connection and then, when you are stranded in a hotel, knowing you may miss practice etc... and if on top of that your luggage doesn't show up.. well.. that's REAL BAD LUCK.

I have NEVER made any excuses for Patrick. He underperformed. Fair enough. Lots of factors like competing one last time in an international event at home can be part of the reasons so are the travel issues. Patrick didn't make excuses either.

My point is that one user called out Patrick yet gave a freepass to the other two, saying they were unlucky. That's all I am saying. I find it unfair to find excuses to some skaters and then just say, well Patrick underperformed... Patrick has no jumps... Patrick needs a jumping coach... Patrick should retire... these are all statements that have been posted on this forum repeatedly, and I do not think they are respectful.

YMMV

This is a frightening sign of a lower back or Lumbar injury. They happen to dancers and one of the indicators is numbness in the limbs. This is serious and I can only hope that Patrick is ready for Nationals. If not, it won't bother me to see him retire as he's been a competitive senior for a decade.....He has the rest of his life to live and I have high hopes for him as a coach and choreographer. I want what's best for him and people's opinions do not matter at this time.

 

[rain]

Our B.Esp. commentators went one further. They said this FS performance puts Rippon in the conversation as being another USA hope for the Olympic podium... along with, and after his training mate Chen, of course.

Well, it was lovely performance, but I think that's a tad on the optimistic side when one looks at the field.

 

[4everchan]

This is a frightening sign of a lower back or Lumbar injury. They happen to dancers and one of the indicators is numbness in the limbs. This is serious and I can only hope that Patrick is ready for Nationals. If not, it won't bother me to see him retire as he's been a competitive senior for a decade.....He has the rest of his life to live and I have high hopes for him as a coach and choreographer. I want what's best for him and people's opinions do not matter at this time.

I don't think Patrick has a major injury but I know what it is to wake up one morning not feeling your legs because you had a great workout the day before and you are no longer 20 years old

I hope he wins his 10th National title. That was his goal. I hope he has great Olympics. I never cared about medals when he returned... He never had anything to prove. All I wish for him, is that he gets a chance to say goodbye with a smile. Sochi didn't provide that and with all he has done for the sport, he deserves it.

Life will tell what will happen and I am at peace with any outcome.

 

[Blades of Passion]

And yet he beat his PB by almost 20 points...not bad for "treading water." The audience loved his "boring" skating so much they gave him 2 standing Os!

Voronov beat his PB in international competition by 20 points because of how inflated the scores are in general and because of reputation/momentum bonus for winning the SP and becoming the "leader" of the event. If you watch him at 2014-15 season Russian Nationals, you can see the level of skating was the exact same. Exact same jumps (except he actually did +2Lo+2Lo combo back then and now does +2T+2Lo), exact same spins, exact same level of skating skills and musicality.

Yes the audience gave a good reaction to a performance that was relatively clean and enough to win him this title. That doesn't change the fact that I find his skating boring and the PCS for this performance much too high.

Voronov is not boring. He's comfortable like an old shoe.

Well I agree with you about his skating being like an old shoe...

Why was Keegan Messing's 3A called invalid?

Because the scoring system is stupid. In a proper scoring system his 3T would have been credited as a 2T and the 3Axel would have been the jump to count for points, in accordance with the zayak rule.

 

[4everchan]

^^ i agree that the zayak rule should be applied to the jumping pass with a mistake, not the successful one.. here, the quad turned triple should be punished and marked * and the 3a should count.... that's how i would make the rules

 

[karne]

Because the scoring system is stupid. In a proper scoring system his 3T would have been credited as a 2T and the 3Axel would have been the jump to count for points, in accordance with the zayak rule.

What? He did a 3T. You can't just magically make that disappear.

Oh, and if you made it a 2T, he'd still Zayak because then he'd have three 2Ts.

 

[silverfoxes]

If Patrick couldn't feel his legs, that's news to me. I knew about the missing luggage, but unless his skates were missing like poor Daniel Samohin that one time, I don't see it as something a top level skater should allow themselves to be affected by. There are methods one can use to deal with psychological stress but there is only so much you can do if you are sick from food poisoning. I don't know what kind of medicine Javi would have been allowed, but in my experience, food poisoning makes you really weak. Anyway, the real point about Patrick was that he chose not to come to NHK and fight for a medal. That's absolutely his right, but other skaters are working hard to get to the final and I hate to see their efforts diminished just because of the mindset some people have that it's not worth watching unless their favorites are there. Let some different people have a chance to shine. Just because someone isn't a 2 or 3 time world champion doesn't mean they can't have good performances. And honestly, I enjoyed Sergei and Adam (in the FS) much more here than some of the error-riddled skates we've seen from the so-called top guys. The men's final last year wasn't really that great, as I recall.

 

[4everchan]

If Patrick couldn't feel his legs, that's news to me. I knew about the missing luggage, but unless his skates were missing like poor Daniel Samohin that one time, I don't see it as something a top level skater should allow themselves to be affected by. There are methods one can use to deal with psychological stress but there is only so much you can do if you are sick from food poisoning. I don't know what kind of medicine Javi would have been allowed, but in my experience, food poisoning makes you really weak. Anyway, the real point about Patrick was that he chose not to come to NHK and fight for a medal. That's absolutely his right, but other skaters are working hard to get to the final and I hate to see their efforts diminished just because of the mindset some people have that it's not worth watching unless their favorites are there. Let some different people have a chance to shine. Just because someone isn't a 2 or 3 time world champion doesn't mean they can't have good performances. And honestly, I enjoyed Sergei and Adam (in the FS) much more here than some of the error-riddled skates we've seen from the so-called top guys. The men's final last year wasn't really that great, as I recall.

I have enjoyed watching the event and Patrick wasn't there... and I will watch GPF without Patrick and Javi and Yuzu... that wasn't why I commented on your post. You can go and listen to Patrick in the KnC talking to Marina and telling her that in the SP he had a lot of energy but in the LP he couldn't feel his legs at all and when that happens, there is no point to break his body by pushing.

He has also mentioned it in interviews. That's why I was surprised that he was put in a different category while the others were "excused".. anyways, I also enjoyed very much watching Adam's LP and well, if some people won't watch when the usual guys from the last decade are retired, I know I will still be watching... I have since 1988... Patrick wasn't even born and I had that same username.

 

[NAOTMAA]

My god this podium, first Cup of China and now this one! Is there something brewing under the ice? :eeking:

can you imagine the Olympic podium featuring all men who a year ago we would have laughed at by the mere suggestion of their name and none of the typical names who dominated the last four years

 

[Blades of Passion]

What? He did a 3T. You can't just magically make that disappear.

Oh, and if you made it a 2T, he'd still Zayak because then he'd have three 2Ts.

Yes you can "magically" make it disappear, just like they made his 3A disappear. The point is that the lowest scoring element should always be the one to get hit with the zayak clause, in a fair world. His 3T should have been the deducted jump, not the 3A. I don't think the zayak rule should exist for double jumps either (except for 2Axel), but a zayaked double jump should be getting credited as a single jump.

 

[Tolstoj]

Voronov beat his PB in international competition by 20 points because of how inflated the scores are in general and because of reputation/momentum bonus for winning the SP and becoming the "leader" of the event. If you watch him at 2014-15 season Russian Nationals, you can see the level of skating was the exact same. Exact same jumps (except he actually did +2Lo+2Lo combo back then and now does +2T+2Lo), exact same spins, exact same level of skating skills and musicality.

Because the scoring system is stupid. In a proper scoring system his 3T would have been credited as a 2T and the 3Axel would have been the jump to count for points, in accordance with the zayak rule.

We could say the same about Rippon and Brown. They were equally as beautiful artistically 2 years ago, and they have still the same problems with the jumps today.

It's funny that you picked RN 2014-15 where to me Sergei was oddly robbed, but this program is way better than that FS. (costume, music, and choreography less cringy)

The scoring system isn't stupid, it makes you think: Keegan could have done a 2a instead of the 3a and that would have been counted. When you pop a jump, you need to have a plan b.

But he will get better, i can see the potential in his skating, though the jumping technique isn't great. (i wonder if he is really able to land a 4ltz or it was a planned fall at Skate Canada)

 

[twirlingblades]

Yes you can "magically" make it disappear, just like they made his 3A disappear. The point is that the lowest scoring element should always be the one to get hit with the zayak clause, in a fair world. His 3T should have been the deducted jump, not the 3A. I don't think the zayak rule should exist for double jumps either (except for 2Axel), but a zayaked double jump should be getting credited as a single jump.

Why should the lower one get hit with the zayak rule? Up until the last 3A, he had not zayak'd. He only broke the rule once the 3A was done, so that is the jump that is scratched. Also, skaters should be able to think on their feet. Skaters know the rules (especially the zayak rule). If he made the last axel a 2A, it would've been fine. I remember Gracie messing up a jumping pass and later having to add a 1T at the end so one of her 3Z's had a combo (she couldn't add a 2T or else she would've had three 2Ts/zayak'd).

Why should it not apply for double jumps? Many skaters never learn triple jumps, and only have a program full of doubles. Should they be able just do one or two doubles multiple times and call it a day? Should a skater win by going five 2Z's or 2F's and a few axels over someone that did a variety of jumps? That's the original issue that the rule fixes. I think we need to remember that IJS rules apply to all skaters, not just international/elite ones.

 

[Alexz]

Potentially, Voronov can pull "Adeline Sotnikova" on this Olympics. Potentially.

 

[4everchan]

^^ he can land the 4lz and also 4lz-3t

 

[TontoK]

Mathman, you still around this thread? I've got something semi-controversial to say, and I always appreciate your input when I do that.

It just struck me that Jason now heads to US Nats, likely the stand-alone deciding event in determining the Olympic Team, without having ever completed a clean quad in competition.

Given this, why didn't he even attempt them here? Do you think the idea was to skate clean and make the GPF?

So now what? Does he try them at US Nats? Does he go without them and hope someone else has bad programs and he sneaks into the Top 3 by default?

Everyone, including myself, has been so complementary of his coaching team, but now I'm bucking that narrative. I can't believe they've led him to this point.

Olympic berth on the line at US Nats, no clean competition quad ever, more rivals than spots on the team and all of them are technically superior, his most recent competition is a relative mess wherein he didn't even get competition reps on the quad attempt, finishing off the podium in a weaker GP field, losing badly to one of his rivals...

I don't know how a coaching team could have done worse in zapping confidence of an athlete. Y'all continue cheerleading Team Kori if you want, but I'm off that boat.

 

[Tonichelle]

Yay Keegan!!!!

 

[Mathman]

The scoring system isn't stupid, it makes you think: Keegan could have done a 2a instead of the 3a and that would have been counted. When you pop a jump, you need to have a plan b.

The strange thing is that if Keegan hadn't popped an intended 4T into a 3T, he still couldn't have done an extra 3A because he would have repeated the 4T and the 3Lz. He must have decided to add another 3A on the fly, after missing the second 4T, in order to bring up his point total. (?)

 

[4everchan]

The strange thing is that if Keegan hadn't popped an intended 4T into a 3T, he still couldn't have done an extra 3A because he would have repeated the 4T and the 3Lz. He must have decided to add another 3A on the fly, after missing the second 4T, in order to bring up his point total. (?)

i think the opening jump was the main mistake.... At Skate Canada it was a 4lz.... his planned repeated jumps are 4t and 3a.

 

[Tolstoj]

Given this, why didn't he even attempt them here? Do you think the idea was to skate clean and make the GPF?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA5F4tAZhGA

I'm actually with Kurt and Carol Lane this time: he should take the risk and go for the quads asap, because even with all triples he's not a very consistent skater.

Franca Bianconi (coach/ISU technical specialist/commentator) said that here he tried to make his axels longer than usual (perhaps to boost the GOE even more) but it didn't work at all because he needs to have more elevation.

 

[Mrs. P]

Mathman, you still around this thread? I've got something semi-controversial to say, and I always appreciate your input when I do that.

It just struck me that Jason now heads to US Nats, likely the stand-alone deciding event in determining the Olympic Team, without having ever completed a clean quad in competition.

Given this, why didn't he even attempt them here? Do you think the idea was to skate clean and make the GPF?

So now what? Does he try them at US Nats? Does he go without them and hope someone else has bad programs and he sneaks into the Top 3 by default?

Everyone, including myself, has been so complementary of his coaching team, but now I'm bucking that narrative. I can't believe they've led him to this point.

Olympic berth on the line at US Nats, no clean competition quad ever, more rivals than spots on the team and all of them are technically superior, his most recent competition is a relative mess wherein he didn't even get competition reps on the quad attempt, finishing off the podium in a weaker GP field, losing badly to one of his rivals...

I don't know how a coaching team could have done worse in zapping confidence of an athlete. Y'all continue cheerleading Team Kori if you want, but I'm off that boat.

Ha, why Mathman? Can't handle me debating with you instead?

Just kidding. I'm not surprised by this post -- it's not that controversial to me really. And I understand 100 percent how you got to that view -- well you made it easy since you wrote it above.

I have thoughts. I don't expect anyone to be persuaded by my thoughts, just simply putting it out there for the record.

1.) I think it cannot be underestimated how much of an impact not having Yuzu there wreak havoc on his nerves. I know this comes off as an excuse, and you're welcome to see it as that. But I think Jason respects skaters who are better than him and if anything he feeds off their energy and ambition. It's like a person who drifts behind the lead cyclist in a a Tour de France. With Yuzu gone, he was the guy to set the standard. I don't think he was comfortable being in that position. Yes, a different person might have THRIVED on this sudden spotlight. But Jason wasn't, at least this time.

2.) There's also this additional pressure I think he puts on himself to do well in Japan. He has a really strong fan base there and he loves the country and performing there. Sometimes you can want something too badly.

3.) As to whether Kori & Co. were responsible for his performance here, I don't agree. I think they did what they could to deal with these nerves. I think they took out the 4T because they were hoping that would ease his nerves or take out the edge a bit. One thing, for better or worse, is that if a jump isn't working in the warm-up practice, they will adjust accordingly. I have a feeling the 4T was MIA that morning. So Kori tried to adjust. It didn't work. As I said, I can get why people think that was the wrong decision -- perhaps if he did the 4T and fell, it might have shocked him and he would have hit everything else -- but hindsight's 20-20.

4.) As to what he'll do at Nationals....who knows at this point. But just a quick story. At JGPF, he waxeled his sole 3A attempt in the FS and finished off the podium. At U.S. Nationals 2013, he basically was 1/2 on Axel attempts in the FS, but adding a new 3Z-1L-3S combo. At junior worlds a month later, he was 2/2 on the 3A, and had the 3-3 combos in the second half. Here was his protocals from JGPF, where he finished OTP. Here is what he did at Nationals about a month later. And here's the protocals from Jr. Worlds two months after Nationals.
So it's not unprecedented that Jason lands things when he needs them. Things might not turn out that way this time, but I don't think it's crazy for him to land a quad at Nationals. If anything, this result might be exactly the thing he needs....

Anyway, I welcome your debate and disagreements, but thought you might appreciate my perspective.