Yes, those two falls were really disruptive for viewers like for her. CO mark should be lower IMO since the falls really affected it. IN too as i saw that she didn't really try to sell the program after the first fall.
2018 GP Helsinki Ladies Short Program
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- Dec 9, 2017
Well, that was unexpected. After I said Alina and Kaori have it all figured out, I guess not. I hope Alina doesn't make a habit of popping the loop; she's already done it a few times in practice this season, which is 100% more than she's done it last season. Seems like a weird habit to develop now, normally Eteri's skaters just go for it, fall and all. It's a good thing she has good spins, they really helped keep her TES here. As for her PCS, she did get dinged on performance which is what pops do - affects the performance. I did think it was too high, but it is only 1 point more than Evgenia who made a more serious error last week so it seems okay, or they're both overscored (probably this) and that's one thing that is still as expected 
As for Kaori, that was a shock. I hate seeing skaters so upset :sad21:. Are there any reports on injury when she fell yesterday? I think she can come back with a free to still medal in this field, but I wonder if she's slightly injured.
As for Kaori, that was a shock. I hate seeing skaters so upset :sad21:. Are there any reports on injury when she fell yesterday? I think she can come back with a free to still medal in this field, but I wonder if she's slightly injured.
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2014
A disappointing SP event. If Caro wasn’t injured and competed here, she could have won it by a long mile. And for people constantly claiming PCS overscoring of Caro, what do you say to judges giving 9’s for a big mistake, lacklustre skate and choreography (with a joke 9.04 CO mark) :eeking:?
Hope for better skates for everyone in the free skate!
Hope for better skates for everyone in the free skate!
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- Feb 14, 2018
For the record, I think you’ve made your point in that you think Daria was underscored, but in the interest of actually having a conversation: which specific PCS marks do you take issue with and what score would you give? Why? Comparisons to SCI are not relevant (I don’t believe in pity and/or reputation PCS — you should receive only the marks that reflect what you skated, not a bonus for “Better than last time”).
Her PCS was as follows — SS: 6.68; TR: 6.29; PE 6.68; CO: 6.64; IE: 6.50. In my opinion, going through each component:
SS: Fair. She’s young and allegedly injured, so I know this isn’t her best, but her skating today was laboured (and goes to why I really dislike seeing injured skaters compete, as all I can feel is deep sadness). Her edges were not deep — shallow to flat — and her speed was, at best, not remarkable. Like many younger skaters, she lacks the knee bend and flow of skaters with more experience, and I assume that will improve with time. For what she performed today: fair.
TR: Nothing especially fancy. There are generally steps in and out of major elements, which can be accounted for in GOE, but the full programme was not exactly rich with a variety of transitions, so, again, I don’t see a problem here. There’s an argument to be made for sacrificing complexity for stability, which is fine, but it also means a lower TR mark.
PE: I never sensed she was committed to her movements, choreography, character, etc. The presentation was largely an exercise in checking off elements — again, understandable, but not something that can be awarded a high mark. There was little to no facial expression, and nothing about the performance that was distinctly individual/Daria-esque. The lack of any variance in performance — Daria stays at the same level throughout the programme, no change of expression or speed, nothing to make the music part of the performance rather than just what happens to be on in the background — is especially problematic.
CO: I don’t yet understand the purpose of this programme and who Daria is within it — is she Bond? A Bond girl? Is it unrelated to Bond and instead about the intensity of human connection that gives life to the words “let the sky fall when we crumble”? That troubles me. I also find the first spin awkwardly placed in relation to the music and ice surface — and on the subject of ice coverage, both the solo 3Lo and 3Lz-3T seem to be done in the same place. Because the music doesn’t pick up until the end, I don’t find the first spin and the three jumping passes to be well-matched to the music, as the beat and intensity are the same throughout. If a well-composed programme is one in which every movement is driven by the music, I find this programme to be one in which the music is kept at arm’s length — the programme doesn’t detract from the music and vice-versa, but neither do they enhance each other, and Daria herself does not seem to be moving in response to the music.
IE: Briefly, as already said: there is nothing specific to Daria in this skate, no nuances or individual touches (which — she’s 15! I’m not expecting her to have her own style yet!), no moments in which she accelerates or slows to draw out the music, no character being portrayed. There’s some interpretation in how the programme is choreographed, but it feels ... non-specific, more a response to the tone of the song than the words, and Daria herself isn’t interpreting in this particular free skate so much as working to fulfill the elements. If I had watched her skate without sound, I would not have been able to identify the genre of music, let alone the song.
She also had a UR call on the -3T after the Lutz, as well as a visibly shaky landing. I did not find her technical elements to be especially well-executed — this was not her best skate. Due to the subdued nature of the skate, the mistakes are more apparent, which suggests weaker performance. I am not necessarily a fan of Zagitova’s short, but it certainly has a point of view, and Zagitova herself worked quite hard to deliver the short after popping the -3Lo; it’s not an easy thing to do, but being able to hold on to the performance even when the technical elements are imperfect is part of committing to a performance.
Overall, in isolation: PCS is fair. It was neither a solid skate nor a disaster. The performance level just wasn’t there and the programme itself could really use refining. In relation to others: I think it’s ridiculous that PCS is still lowballed due to skating order, but let’s assume 1.5-2 points of variance if Daria had skated later. I think that accounts for the clustering of scores among those who finished below Daria, save for Kaori, who had a higher PCS score. And for those who placed higher? I think it’s largely fair, especially if you add a point or two to adjust for starting order. Konstantinova’s 4 point lead in PCS is probably too much, but I think that’s more an issue of Konstantinova being overscored than Daria underscored. I do not understand Yuna’s programme or how we got to the club, but I think her marks are more or less fine, and while I would really rather never hear POTO ever again, Zagitova’s marks are... if they’re off, it’s not because of how Daria scored, and let’s not go down that rabbit hole.
I realize you take issue with the more briefly-worded version of my thoughts on Daria’s programme, but I am willing to put my cards on the table. Again: in which components do you feel Daria was underscored and why? How she scored in PCS relative to others is not the point, at least for me — I can defend all of Daria’s marks, and if she lost points in PCS, it’s only because she skated early. But her PCS being too much lower than someone else’s doesn’t mean she was underscored; generally, when looking at that kind of variance, the gap has more to do with another skater being overscored, not the lower-scoring skater being underscored. Same outcome, yes, but different problem.
Not mention the patchwork music cuts! PCS scoring is a total joke. How can all 5 of those marks always be within a fraction of each other? Can't someone have good transitions and poor performance? Or vice versa? Alina won the Olympics after her PCS inflated to unbeatable levels when combined with her tech. It looks like the same thing is still happening this season.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2017
That's not generally true. Nebelhorne seems relatively conservative with PCS if you compare it to Skate America and Canada.
Mariah Bell goes clean in both competitions in SP and receives 31.14 in Skate Canada and 30.84 in Nebelhorne. So slightly less in Nebelhorne.
Alaine goes relatively clean in Skate Canada and receives 28.65 against to 27.04 in Nebelhorne (she fell there so I guess if not her score could have been similar to SC).
Marin in Skate America goes clean receives 32.26 at Nebelhorn with one fall receives 30.28 (with no fall I doubt she could have received more than 32).
Alina goes clean in Nebelhorn and takes 36.40 here she receives with pop 35.77. Without the error probably more than 36.40.
So generally I would say Nebelhorne as a challenger event was less overscored or similar in PCS than the GP events. GOEs are a different story.
That's why i don't miss Kostner, at all.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
I find it “funny” that what constitutes a “serious error” deserving of PCS caps is not defined. Is lack of a combo in the SP a serious error, due to failing to meet one of the seven technical elements? What about an invalidated spin that, while not satisfying the requirements, isn’t aesthetically unappealing and doesn’t disrupt the programme? It’s still missing one of the seven technical elements. Why are judges allowed to award PCS marks in excess of ISU’s own rules when a programme contains a fall? (Why doesn’t this at least trigger a pop-up and a reminder to the judge to revise and resubmit.) Why are scores that are clearly input errors accepted — a row of -5s, and the lone +3? Why doesn’t the gap in consensus cause the system to force the judge who’s out of consensus to review the element, then re-enter the GOE? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yes, I'm thinking it's because her choreography and steps are to fast, frantic and perhaps labored for the slow, smooth music. It just doesn't fit for me.
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- Apr 26, 2018
Am I a bad person when I feel total satisfaction by thinking that Alina‘s PCS will be even higher when she skates her FP clean tomorrow? That will be an uproar... but she won‘t care, proudly wearing the gold. :dev3:
No, in all seriousness.... @BillNeal: I love Caro and I was devastated when I heard she won‘t be competing on the GP circuit this season. But we can‘t really say “she‘d have won this by a long mile“ because she isn‘t exactly a prime example of consistency. Had she been remotely clean, she would have. But we don‘t know and we also can‘t tell because she isn‘t here. And so far Alina is in first place and will remain in that position after tomorrow.
No, in all seriousness.... @BillNeal: I love Caro and I was devastated when I heard she won‘t be competing on the GP circuit this season. But we can‘t really say “she‘d have won this by a long mile“ because she isn‘t exactly a prime example of consistency. Had she been remotely clean, she would have. But we don‘t know and we also can‘t tell because she isn‘t here. And so far Alina is in first place and will remain in that position after tomorrow.
There will only be an uproar from people who didn't like Alina to begin with. She's reigning OGM, of course her PCS will be high (and deservedly so). I'll stay in the Alina fan fest since there's so much petty negativity about her on competition threads now, but just want to say I LOVE her POTO program. Even with the popped jump, I love the expressiveness during her "Think of Me" segment. Her footwork and arm motions are lovely. Her spins are exquisite as usual. The music box moment feels other-worldly. Her jumps remain some of the most difficult given the transitions and entries into them, and the placement at music crescendos. OK, I could do without the glass shattering and thunder side effects. But overall, it's a lovely program. I wish they expanded on this and made it her FS.
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2014
I wish judges could score components separate of each category. A nine in transitions doesn't mean you have a nine in performance, interpretation, or whatever.
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- Oct 30, 2012
I hope this is just the "normal" Alina who does not do her best at the beginning of GP. She is never as consistent as Evgenia in the past three season or Satoko. So for those who say she is already in the GPF even before she skated here, they are too optimistic. For this weak competition and how everyone skated in the SP, there is no way that Alina will be off the podium. Since 3lz3lo is a high risk combo, maybe eventually they will just replace it with 3lz3T. This season is just very unpredictable.
I think Stalinslava has a very good chance to get the bronzes or even silver.
I think Stalinslava has a very good chance to get the bronzes or even silver.
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- Dec 29, 2013
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I never understood why judges struggle with this but I think as much as I wish the judges would think a bit more on their scores... if I only had one wish from an ISU genie it would be that the fans would think a little less about the scores
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- Oct 19, 2018
Where as I see her pitched far forward looking all too wilting in the thing of me section.
However, I do love her spins!
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- Apr 26, 2018
I know, I was joking, don’t take that comment too seriously.
I didn‘t like the program at first at all, because of the music cuts but after watching it a few times I hardly notice them at all now. This isn‘t her best SP and there were a few things that were off today but when she hits everything, it‘s quite lovely indeed. I prefer the fierce and flirty FP but it‘s nice to see a more vulnerable Alina skating to a more lyrical piece and showing emotions. I love some of the moments; especially the 3F when it‘s hit right on the beat of the music. Her spins are wonderful as well. I also like the ending and the beginning, the look in her eyes is very expressive!
Of course it‘s the normal Alina who else would she be? She just missed the combo because she lost momentum on the landing of the 3Lo. All loop combos have to be timed perfectly, you can‘t add them if the landing of the first jump has slipped or is a bit iffy. And Alina will win Gold here and then she‘ll have a second event where she‘ll most likely also not finish below second. So yes, she pretty much is in the GPF already. She had bad SP last season, too but always delivered in the FS and then by the time Olympics were there she performed everything flawlessly.
In her fanfest was a discussion about replacing the combo in the SP but I don‘t think they will. She nails 99.9% of the 3Lz-3Lo in practice, she can do it in her sleep and it‘s her signature combo. Sometimes you just have bad luck but I don‘t think they‘ll change the program because of that. They didn‘t last season and that was even more risky as it was the Olympic season. If they didn‘t take the safe route then, they won‘t do it this year either.
I‘m still hoping for a medal for Kaori but Stasya could easily get a medal. Loena would be a favourite of mine too, however. Overall, I‘m wishing for everyone to have a good skate and may the best take a medal!
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- Mar 15, 2014
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LOL
I suspect it will be mentioned in each thread. It was already posted about in the pairs thread.
I think it's quite distracting.
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- Jun 27, 2003
I agree, it's such a powerful message song that unless you're doing a program to really emphasize the message (which I don't think one can really do in a competitive short program) it just seems to be something playing while a skater is gliding around. I do love watching Angela skate, though.
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