2019 Judging and Tech calls discussion

[DizzyFrenchie]

So how can you claim the scoring was unfair and that Yuzu should have been 1st in the SP if you can't explain WHY you believe that should have been so?

As for Alina...her skating skills are not the best amongst the ladies nevermind equal to Yuzu, and her hunched over posture is AWFUL for a start. The rest is pretty good, good enough but not WOW.

Just as I told you : by comparison. I am not qualified to define the scale, as you are asking me to do. Just to see if there is a scale fairly, rather consistently used by judges whatever the skater, and there is not. At least with these two men. And only them among senior singles, as far as I know. I have often seen complains about other skaters, for instance that Rika Kihira's jumps are underscored because they are better rotated than 3As and it is not reflected by the scores, but 1) hers are sometimes underrotated, just less often than 3A's, which are far from always pre- or underrotated; 2) hers are lower and shorter, though elegant. So, I don't see (I can't see?) anything unfair, except I think this season she improved much more (not in jumps, as she is injured) than her score — but this is part of the problem, that components are scored as a nearly constant proportion of elements, so, her elements being lower this season, her components are not much better rewarded in spite of being bettter skated. I hope she will fully recover before Worlds, then we will see : she may very well medal with her Lutz back, even without quad this season.

As to Alina Zagitova, I see many people speak of her posture. Is that all? (With ballet I see how much posture matters; but I noticed nothing wrong with Alina's.) There is an union between skater, skates and ice; and this apparent ability of being able to do absolutely anything with her skates and ice, which I see surpassed, at the moment, only by Yuzuru Hanyu. For instance, stopping in an instant, then gliding fast again "without having ever started". This to me is WOW.

 

[chanchan]

Because of FIVE QUADS, Yuzu was really tired in this long program. Everybody can see that he was really slow on the ice from here. https://youtu.be/l5BFnQrgWBQ?t=228 For this competition, Nathan has better skating skills, transitions, performace, composition and interpretation of the music. He deserved higher PCS.

Yes, Yuzu is usually good at PCS, but sorry not this time. Should the judges give him higher PCS just because of his reputation?
Nathan was not as good as Yuzu in the past. But he is improving every season. For that day, he is definitely better than Yuzu.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Do you really think, had the short program been judged fairly, Yuzuru Hanyu would have skated a free program he had skated through only once, and before having put in the transitions? And without listening to his coaches? A free program certainly meant for the Worlds, not even Nationals?
First, Yuzuru Hanyu always polishes his programs so that they look perfect... until next step in his progression. I could not even imagine he could be in such despair as to speak it, pardon, to skate it so plainly, so unlike his own self.
Second, Yuzuru Hanyu always does what he has told he would do. And he told he would endeavour to have even better components, transitions, all. Not to jump more jumps. And his short program shows it is what he had been preparing for, though "ante-paring" one more jump for Worlds, he would probably have announced after GPF.
But anyway, this FS, bad as it was in "Yuzu standard", was not judged on the same basis as Chen's, I repeat it.

 

[Mishaminion]

Just as I told you : by comparison. I am not qualified to define the scale, as you are asking me to do. Just to see if there is a scale fairly, rather consistently used by judges whatever the skater, and there is not. At least with these two men. And only them among senior singles, as far as I know. I have often seen complains about other skaters, for instance that Rika Kihira's jumps are underscored because they are better rotated than 3As and it is not reflected by the scores, but 1) hers are sometimes underrotated, just less often than 3A's, which are far from always pre- or underrotated; 2) hers are lower and shorter, though elegant. So, I don't see (I can't see?) anything unfair, except I think this season she improved much more (not in jumps, as she is injured) than her score — but this is part of the problem, that components are scored as a nearly constant proportion of elements, so, her elements being lower this season, her components are not much better rewarded in spite of being bettter skated. I hope she will fully recover before Worlds, then we will see : she may very well medal with her Lutz back, even without quad this season.

Okay I will help you with this.

Nathan Chen SP

110.38 TES 63.13 PCS 47.25 1st

Clean skate, 2 quads, one in combination.

Yuzuru Hanyu SP

97.43 TES 50.10 PCS 47.33 2nd

2 quads but combination missed, major error/stumble. Gets highest PCS despite that.

Kevin Aymoz SP

96.71 TES 52.50 PCS 44.21

One quad and 3-3 combo but everything clean and isn't getting the PCS he deserves (yet).

Yuzu was in fact pretty lucky to be 2nd, nevermind 1st. Just one point more in PCS and Kevin would have been above him.

There's no point pretending that BOTH Nathan and Yuzu dont benefit from reputation scoring for PCS... of course they do. Nathan at least skated cleanly, as did Kevin.

So... can you point out the unfairness in any of that?

 

[Mishaminion]

Do you really think, had the short program been judged fairly, Yuzuru Hanyu would have skated a free program he had skated through only once, and before having put in the transitions? And without listening to his coaches? A free program certainly meant for the Worlds, not even Nationals?
First, Yuzuru Hanyu always polishes his programs so that they look perfect... until next step in his progression. I could not even imagine he could be in such despair as to speak it, pardon, to skate it so plainly, so unlike his own self.
Second, Yuzuru Hanyu always does what he has told he would do. And he told he would endeavour to have even better components, transitions, all. Not to jump more jumps. And his short program shows it is what he had been preparing for, though "ante-paring" one more jump for Worlds, he would probably have announced after GPF.
But anyway, this FS, bad as it was in "Yuzu standard", was not judged on the same basis as Chen's, I repeat it.

Yuzu skated the FS he did because he wants to push himself technically.

So too does Nathan Chen, who hasn't exactly been throwing down 5 quad free skates before GPF either.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Okay I will help you with this.

Nathan Chen SP

110.38 TES 63.13 PCS 47.25 1st

Clean skate, 2 quads, one in combination.

Yuzuru Hanyu SP

97.43 TES 50.10 PCS 47.33 2nd

2 quads but combination missed, major error/stumble. Gets highest PCS despite that.

Kevin Aymoz SP

96.71 TES 52.50 PCS 44.21

One quad and 3-3 combo but everything clean and isn't getting the PCS he deserves (yet).

Yuzu was in fact pretty lucky to be 2nd, nevermind 1st. Just one point more in PCS and Kevin would have been above him.

There's no point pretending that BOTH Nathan and Yuzu dont benefit from reputation scoring for PCS... of course they do. Nathan at least skated cleanly, as did Kevin.

So... can you point out the unfairness in any of that?

Could you explain me where you find Chen's PCs anywhere near 9s? In performance, his SP is the best I've seen of him, there is real impersonation (plus it is of Charles Aznavour ;-) ) so I wouldn't mind a 7, but for others components? Have you really seen Yuzuru Hanyu's short program this GPF? Have you ever seen anything near it? And you think it is fair because it is 0.08 (total PCs!) above Chen's?

As to Kevin Aymoz, I like him very much, I have great hopes for him, his skating skills are superb, but nearly 45 at components? He deserved very well his medal, this being said, I don't think I am too "nationalistic" in thinking so. I am just speaking of scores.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Yuzu skated the FS he did because he wants to push himself technically.

So too does Nathan Chen, who hasn't exactly been throwing down 5 quad free skates before GPF either.

"Yuzu skated the FS he did because he wants to push himself technically."
I really do not comprehend how anybody following men figure skating can think a fraction of second the motivation of "push(ing) himself technically" could bring Yuzuru Hanyu to skate an unprepared program? This was certainly the motivation to start preparing such a program, aiming to skating it in "remote" championships. But Yuzuru Hanyu cannot live without delivering programs at the level of perfection he thinks befitting. Which was so, so far from being the case here (though he did skate better than Chen, just from his settled abilities).

 

[Mishaminion]

Could you explain me where you find Chen's PCs anywhere near 9s? In performance, his SP is the best I've seen of him, there is real impersonation (plus it is of Charles Aznavour ;-) ) so I wouldn't mind a 7, but for others components? Have you really seen Yuzuru Hanyu's short program this GPF? Have you ever seen anything near it? And you think it is fair because it is 0.08 (total PCs!) above Chen's?

As to Kevin Aymoz, I like him very much, I have great hopes for him, his skating skills are superb, but nearly 45 at components? He deserved very well his medal, this being said, I don't think I am too "nationalistic" in thinking so. I am just speaking of scores.

That you do not believe Nathan deserves higher then a 7 (what the hell? That's ridiculously low) does not make the scoring unfair, what it does is shows your extreme bias that Yuzu should always be scored near perfect while everyone else should be given only just above average scores.

Even knocking a few points off Nathan's score still would have him 1st in the SP and anything more than that is downright unfair as he's a fantastic skater in his own right.

 

[Mishaminion]

"Yuzu skated the FS he did because he wants to push himself technically."
I really do not comprehend how anybody following men figure skating can think a fraction of second the motivation of "push(ing) himself technically" could bring Yuzuru Hanyu to skate an unprepared program? This was certainly the motivation to start preparing such a program, aiming to skating it in "remote" championships. But Yuzuru Hanyu cannot live without delivering programs at the level of perfection he thinks befitting. Which was so, so far from being the case here (though he did skate better than Chen, just from his settled abilities).

For such a huge Yuzu fan you don't seem to listen to what he actually says.

He praises Nathan for his technical ability and said it gives him new found motivation to compete and improve his own.

His own mistake in the SP left him with fewer points than he hoped for, he lost a lot on that combo and the judges cannot be blamed for that. He tried to make up for it in that amazing FS and he gave it so much he ran out of steam.

Instead of complaining, you should be very proud that at 25 and having already won everything that Yuzu is still around, still has that competitive fire and wants to better himself technically. If his perfection elsewhere suffers while he upgrades his jumps well...that is a compromise he is obviously willing to take or he wouldn't be bothering at all.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

He is a fantastic skater because he has powerful jumps (yet, to the moment doesn't manage to have them as high and long as Yuzuru Hanyu, which "strangely" doesn't appear in scores). Becauses he does improve, so may give great hopes. And because he seems to be a great person too.
But he has the infortune of living at the same period as the greatest skater of all times. He is not the greatest by any fancy of my own. He is so because his skating is so near perfection, in all criteria I can see, and in overall. He is one of the very few persons (the only one ever in ice skating, to tell the truth I didn't even think it could happen in ice skating) of whom can be said, as a critics about tenor Fritz Wunderlich, that one can find imperfections with him, but only from an ideal of perfection, not from comparison with other skaters. And if it is the reason why I, personnally, love so much watching him (and even my husband loves watching him), do not believe I may pretend it to be sufficient to give him all medals inconditionnally. Only, there are criteria, this criteria are written, rather objective, he is objectively far above all others in all these criteria, yet not credited for it.
An 7 is not a low mark. It is a good one. Good to very good. 9 means an exceptional program in the component in question. Is Nathan Chen exceptional in performance? Really? I think he is "good to very good" in his short program, and I am very happy because this is the first time I see such a good performance from him, while he is only 20 and will obviously progress. In skating skills, interpretation, transitions, do you find him really good? As to composition, I don't feel entitled to an opinion, though I see well his much lesser ice coverage — though it probably relates to his lower skating skills, it is a criterium in composition.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

For such a huge Yuzu fan you don't seem to listen to what he actually says.

He praises Nathan for his technical ability and said it gives him new found motivation to compete and improve his own.

His own mistake in the SP left him with fewer points than he hoped for, he lost a lot on that combo and the judges cannot be blamed for that. He tried to make up for it in that amazing FS and he gave it so much he ran out of steam.

Instead of complaining, you should be very proud that at 25 and having already won everything that Yuzu is still around, still has that competitive fire and wants to better himself technically. If his perfection elsewhere suffers while he upgrades his jumps well...that is a compromise he is obviously willing to take or he wouldn't be bothering at all.

Are you sure you really heard/read what Yuzuru Hanyu and Nathan Chen really said after this GPF? I have explained some of it, yet you didn"t seem to read it, or what? I wonder if any skater, particularly such respectful skaters as them, have anywhere spoken so little implicitly against "unfair judgment"?

And am I to bear seing Hanyu denigrated, just because he is 25 and should be glad of whatever alm score he is given, in spite of the real, objective superiority of his skating? This fire as you say, is what drove him nearly crazy this GPF, because it makes him probably more sensitive to scores — and to injustice in them, after so much hard work and dedication.

 

[Mishaminion]

Are you sure you really heard/read what Yuzuru Hanyu and Nathan Chen really said after this GPF? I have explained some of it, yet you didn"t seem to read it, or what? I wonder if any skater, particularly such respectful skaters as them, have anywhere spoken so little implicitly against "unfair judgment"?

And am I to bear seing Hanyu denigrated, just because he is 25 and should be glad of whatever alm score he is given, in spite of the real, objective superiority of his skating? This fire as you say, is what drove him nearly crazy this GPF, because it makes him probably more sensitive to scores — and to injustice in them, after so much hard work and dedication.

I've seen lots of fans reading into their words and coming to their own conclusions as to their meaning.

I just see two skaters who are enjoying skating against each other, have great respect for one another and a desire to both keep pushing themselves and each other to greater heights.

Which is good for the sport isn't it?

I don't prefer one over the other, at least not at this point. Yuzu is one of the Greatest Of All Time but Nathan is improving so much and may one day be called that himself.

In my mind there is never just one Greatest of All Time, because there are different greats in different times.

 

[1111bm]

So how can you claim the scoring was unfair and that Yuzu should have been 1st in the SP if you can't explain WHY you believe that should have been so?

Yeah. Especially when you (DizzieFrenchie) say that you can't see an edge, how are you qualified to assess someone's skating skills, which entail things such as edge depth, cleanness and precision of edges during turns and steps etc.

 

[1111bm]

I've asked a tech specialist - the steps he did counts as steps before a jump in her opinion. Sorry this is tedious just very interesting.

Doesn't matter, since it is the judges who give out GOE, not tech specialists. And as has already been mentioned several times, both the tech and judging panel have some room for interpreting the rules, requirements and guidelines.
So every judge will have a somewhat different opinion on what steps satisfy that old SP requirement and which don't and how harsh they wanna judge this when it's a particularly difficult jump vs. an easier triple for instance.

You can see this in Misha's score from CoC 2017, where he received GOEs ranging from 0 to 3 on his 4Lz. It's seems pretty obvious that the judges were trying to find a middle ground between rewarding the insane quality of that jump but also subtracting some points for the missing steps (which the majority of the judges must've felt were lacking).

The steps that he did are a standard entry into a Lutz nowadays (mohawk-edge change-crossover), so just a simple way you set up your jump.

If we call this additional steps, by that logic, we could count all mohawks or 3-turns or back power 3s into jumps 'additional' steps, when in reality they're part of a regular jump entry.

(Also, not tedious at all )

 

[gkelly]

either the judges should give him 10 (without fall) at each of the components, stating he is over the scale of the competition, then be free to use the whole scale of PCs scores for others; or they may give him less than 10, stating he could be even nearer perfection, but then, even if they consider the scale of components not to be linear but to be logarithmic (which I doubt they do), who can pass 8s? In fact very few can pass 5s.

If I understand correctly, you only watch elite skating, are not familiar with the details of skating technique, and do not keep up on all the rules/guidelines as they apply to all the skaters.

Without that knowledge base, it's hard to have a good sense of what constitutes average, very good, or exceptional skating skills or how the 0-10 scale should be applied across the whole field of skaters from beginners to Olympic champions, much less to complain that others with much deeper knowledge are doing it wrong.

If you want to put your current knowledge into a broader context, I would recommend reading the PCS guidelines
https://usfigureskating.org/content/PC Chart combined SPD.pdf
http://iceskatingresources.org/ProgramComponents.html

If it would be easier in French, try
https://info.skatecanada.ca/index.p...sif.html#h4-1-habiletes-de-patinage-equilibre

For Skating Skills/Habiletés de patinage:

Habiletés de patinage (équilibre)

• Équilibre, mouvements rythmiques du genou et précision du placement des pieds : Mettez l’accent sur l’inclinaison du corps et la profondeur des courbes – notez comment les patineurs déplacent leurs corps pour se déplacer de façon rapide et puissante sur la glace (ou non). Y a-t-il seulement une ligne verticale du corps ou uniquement des fléchissements du corps vers l’avant ou intègrent-ils une gamme complète de mouvements à partir de l’axe vertical – et comment est-ce que la puissance, la vitesse et l’évolution diffèrent entre les patineurs possédant ces qualités?
• Netteté et assurance d’exécution, le contrôle des courbes et l'évolution : Déterminez la profondeur du vocabulaire du patinage de chaque patineur... combien de contre-accolades, de contre-trois, de changements de carres voyez-vous en comparaison des mohawks et des virages trois? Comment cela se compare-t-il avec la vitesse et l’évolution des patineurs?
• Puissance, vitesse et accélération : Déterminez où le patineur varie sa puissance et sa vitesse comme le dicte la musique. Comment génère-t-il de la puissance – à partir des virages, des mohawks, des trois intensifs ou des poussées-élans? Demandez aux participants de déterminer où dans le programme ils voient des changements dans la qualité du patinage ou la difficulté du patinage ou la vitesse et la puissance. Demandez-leur d’identifier, d’après eux, ce qui produit ces changements.
• Maîtrise du patinage sur un pied : Déterminez la profondeur du vocabulaire du patinage de chaque patineur... combien de virages sur un pied sont exécutés, comme des contre-accolades, des contre-trois, etc.
• Maîtrise égale de la technique par les deux partenaires montrée par leur unisson (patinage en couple et danse) : Pour les équipes de patinage en couple et de danse, étudiez attentivement les différences entre les deux patineurs. Que voyez-vous et comment est-ce que vous en tenez compte dans votre note?

Watch some large competitions with wide ranges of Skating Skills on video. I recommend watching an entire JGP competition phase (short program or freeskate, men or ladies) from start to finish to see what kind of skating is earning 3s, 5s, or 7s.

Or watch a whole largish senior event such as the Challenger series or other "senior B" events, or Europeans or Four Continents, from start to finish. You'll see skaters earning 5s there. How do those performances compare to the medalists who aren't your favorite?

If you have the opportunity to attend a largish competition (not necessarily junior or senior) in person, up close, you'll be able to see, and hear, differences in the skating that don't come across on video.

If you can watch practices of different levels of skaters at a local rink, that could also be very instructive.

 

[Mathman]

Watch some large competitions with wide ranges of Skating Skills on video. I recommend watching an entire JGP competition phase (short program or freeskate, men or ladies) from start to finish to see what kind of skating is earning 3s, 5s, or 7s.

Do skaterswho are good enough to compete on the Junior Grand Prix really earn 3's sometimes?

What do novices get? Intermediates? Juniors who are not good enough for the JGP but compete at lesser events?

 

[Noxchild]

The JGP is much more of a catch-all than the senior GP. You will see a lot of rough gems out there in the massive skating rosters, and a lot of kids trying their best despite a lack of resources (but never effort).

 

[Mishaminion]

Do skaters good enough to compete on the Junior Grand Prix really earn 3's sometimes?

What do novices get? Intermediates? Juniors who are not good enough for the JGP but compete at lesser events?

Not sure.

But in the Mens GPF SP none of the six skaters got less than an 8 other than Boyang Jin who got high 7s in Transitions...he had a poor SP too.

So DizzyFrenchie is marking Nathan down so much that his PCS for the kind of performances he put out at the GPF should have been dead last.

In the FS Boyang Jin and Dmitri Aliev both had rough skates, Aliev got FOUR fall deductions...they both got scores in the 7s across the board for PCS apart from one 8.00 for Jin in skating skills and a 6.96 performance score for Aliev, who had an absolute disaster skate in general.

So DizzyFrenchie is claiming Nathan Chen only deserves the same sort of PCS as a skater who completely BOMBED their FS.

 

[gkelly]

Do skaters good enough to compete on the Junior Grand Prix really earn 3's sometimes?

Yes.
For instance, at the Junior Grand Prix in Lake Placid this season, panel average scores in the men's freeskate ranged from 3s (two skaters) to 7s (the winner), with the majority spread from 4s to 6s:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/jgpusa2019/SEG002.htm

In the ladies' freeskate, the top 4 all earned some 7s, three skaters earned 3s, and one skater who could not realistically be called a junior skater earned 1s:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1920/jgpusa2019/SEG004.htm

What do novices get? Intermediates? Juniors who are not good enough for the JGP but compete at lesser events?

It depends on the competition, and how well each skater performs that day. And sometimes how generous or strict the judges on that particular panel happen to be.

I just chose one US regional competition and one qualifying round per level at random and found

Novice ladies in the group I chose earned PCS ranging from high 2s to low 5s.

In a randomly chosen intermediate ladies group, PCS ranged from low 2s to low 4s.

Juniors all skated in one large group, earning PCS from low 3s to low 5s.

So those are approximate ranges you would see among skaters at those levels within the US. The top skaters nationally at those levels might earn a bit higher, but maybe the top skaters weren't at this event or in the groups that I chose. Especially since the new National Qualifying Series meant the top skaters got to skip regionals if they wanted.

There are overlaps: the stronger skaters at one level may earn higher scores than weaker skaters a couple of levels higher.

 

[Andrea82]

It depends on the competition, and how well each skater performs that day. And sometimes how generous or strict the judges on that particular panel happen to be.

I just chose one US regional competition and one qualifying round per level at random and found

Novice ladies in the group I chose earned PCS ranging from high 2s to low 5s.

In a randomly chosen intermediate ladies group, PCS ranged from low 2s to low 4s.

Juniors all skated in one large group, earning PCS from low 3s to low 5s.

So those are approximate ranges you would see among skaters at those levels within the US. The top skaters nationally at those levels might earn a bit higher, but maybe the top skaters weren't at this event or in the groups that I chose. Especially since from new National Qualifying Series meant the top skaters got to skip regionals if they wanted.

There are overlaps: the stronger skaters at one level may earn higher scores than weaker skaters a couple of levels higher.

Looking at last week's international event in Bratislava, the ranges are broadly the same.

Advanced novice boys: from mid 3s to low 5s
http://www.kraso.sk/wp-content/uploads/sutaze/2019_2020/20191213_ba/SEG007.HTM
http://www.kraso.sk/wp-content/uploads/sutaze/2019_2020/20191213_ba/SEG008.HTM

Advanced novice girls: In SP, 3 were in high 2s and top was in 5s. In FS there were more 5s. Top 9 girls got some components over 5s. Bottom 6 was still in the 2s
http://www.kraso.sk/wp-content/uploads/sutaze/2019_2020/20191213_ba/SEG009.HTM
http://www.kraso.sk/wp-content/uploads/sutaze/2019_2020/20191213_ba/SEG010.HTM


Advanced novice ice dance: there were some 6s for the top 2 teams in the free dance. Some judges gave some 7s in Interpretation for the winners.
http://www.kraso.sk/wp-content/uploads/sutaze/2019_2020/20191213_ba/SEG013.HTM