2020-21 Japanese Nationals: Ladies' Short Program

[eppen]

Almost forgot to write something about this. Could be the choppy pirated stream I had to watch (Japanese fed could take a look at what the Russians are doing!), but it was a bit meh, did not get too excited at all. Was looking forward to seeing what Rika and Satoko had to offer - the others had been competing, so they had been seen. Rika's SP reminded me a little bit too much of the Beautiful Storm FS a couple seasons ago, with a different choreographer that is some kind of an achievement? The cartwheel was the definite hightlight. Satoko was fine, but nothing exciting about that program.

Wakaba messed things up, Kaori was less than impressive in her performance. Although that programs suits her very well - she is one of those great skater-poor performers. For some time I have been thinking that if this is the case, then the skater should stick to classical style music and movement because that is soooo much easier to make look credible than something with a specific dance style or character or storyline. I think Patrick Chan and Yuzuru Hanyu are great examples of that, Tarasova and Morozov in pairs also. This SP for Kaori does not require much expression and kind of survives just on her great skating skills and exhibiting ok lines for the rest.

E

 

[Joekaz]

Wakaba's jumping was terrible last night. She had been struggling with the 3A the last couple of weeks, and fell on it in the morning practice and in the warm up skate. Probably should have just did a 2A instead. Blowing the 3/3 really hurt her though. Oddly, she actually skated well other than the blown jumps. To illustrate the Kaori overscoring issue, they both did sloppy 3/2 instead of 3/3. Other than that the only difference was Wakaba fell on 3A. So 10 point difference? Ok. Lol

 

[labgoat]

Come on Mai, rotate everything.

She is so sweet and delicate on the ice. It's good to see her back and at least seemingly in recovery from her illness. I truly hope she continues to feel better because the sport is poorer without her.

Such a good job! Lovely!

Mai is a personal favorite. She is so precise with her movements, her jumps, spin and transitions are beautifully timed to the music. She is delicate and subtle, a combitnation not always rewarded amongst the big, dramatic jumps and choreography. The more you watch her programs the more you notice the smaller details. She is a lot like Satoko in the detailing, but bigger and cleaner on the jumps in a way that defys her fragile appearance. Well done my sweetie!

 

[Ophelia]

Kihira is a very very well-rounded skater (reminds me a bit of Yuna Kim), and she comes alive during this SP.

 

[TallyT]

Honestly JSF scoring makes me think they must have a prayer chanting circle so that Kaori can go clean and then can give her all the points.

I really do not get it. They have Rika. She has the jumps, the skating skills and all the potential in the world. Tech and artistry. She's the future of figure skating so what the f*** are they looking for exactly?

I always feel like they grudgingly have to tolerate her because she's got it all but they really wish it was someone else.

It makes me very cross

All the federations blatantly play favourites. The US and Russia do it by handing said favs candies by the truckload, Japan by starving out their nonfavs of deserved candies. And 90% of the time it's politics that decides who is in and who is out.

And then the ISU wonders why they can't build popular support for the sport...

 

[alexocfp]

For those that have Fuji on demand, the program has been archived on the site.

No commentary, and no live score box.

 

[Skatefan15]

To illustrate the Kaori overscoring issue, they both did sloppy 3/2 instead of 3/3. Other than that the only difference was Wakaba fell on 3A. So 10 point difference? Ok. Lol

I think Kaori’s combo should’ve gotten a negative GOE but I think since Wakaba 3 turned in between her jumps it caused the GOE to be even lower. Even with the combo mistake I think Kaori’s PCS should be higher than Wakaba yesterday. 31 was kind of harsh on Wakaba, but other skaters I felt were underscored on that aspect too, like Mai who got less than Wakaba—and she was clean. The top three’s PCS were pretty fair (I would’ve had Satoko higher though). However, I hope at whatever competition Wakaba does next, that her coaching team has her 3A entrance for the short the same as the free. I love the entrance for the short but it seems a little too complicated at the moment. Anyway, I hope that Wakaba comes back fighting in the free!

 

[Joekaz]

I think Kaori’s combo should’ve gotten a negative GOE but I think since Wakaba 3 turned in between her jumps it caused the GOE to be even lower. Even with the combo mistake I think Kaori’s PCS should be higher than Wakaba yesterday. 31 was kind of harsh on Wakaba, but other skaters I felt were underscored on that aspect too, like Mai who got less than Wakaba—and she was clean. The top three’s PCS were pretty fair (I would’ve had Satoko higher though). However, I hope at whatever competition Wakaba does next, that her coaching team has her 3A entrance for the short the same as the free. I love the entrance for the short but it seems a little too complicated at the moment. Anyway, I hope that Wakaba comes back fighting in the free!

We just completely disagree on Sakamoto's overal skating ability. On edges and flow she is the top. But on most of the other PCS aspects she is inferior to the other top girls and in no way should ever be close to Miyahara in PCS. Other than the fall on the 3A Higuchi was the better skater. Their body control and movement to the music are not even comparable. Sakamoto is very strong on some aspects of PCS, but also very weak on some. That is why so many people are getting sick of the obvious bias. She herself said she expected a lower score. If judged like the others 67 or maybe 68 would have been the most she should have got, with Rika geting 75 or 76.

 

[4everchan]

Almost forgot to write something about this. Could be the choppy pirated stream I had to watch (Japanese fed could take a look at what the Russians are doing!), but it was a bit meh, did not get too excited at all. Was looking forward to seeing what Rika and Satoko had to offer - the others had been competing, so they had been seen. Rika's SP reminded me a little bit too much of the Beautiful Storm FS a couple seasons ago, with a different choreographer that is some kind of an achievement? The cartwheel was the definite hightlight. Satoko was fine, but nothing exciting about that program.

Wakaba messed things up, Kaori was less than impressive in her performance. Although that programs suits her very well - she is one of those great skater-poor performers. For some time I have been thinking that if this is the case, then the skater should stick to classical style music and movement because that is soooo much easier to make look credible than something with a specific dance style or character or storyline. I think Patrick Chan and Yuzuru Hanyu are great examples of that, Tarasova and Morozov in pairs also. This SP for Kaori does not require much expression and kind of survives just on her great skating skills and exhibiting ok lines for the rest.

E

I am not sure where you got that Patrick Chan stuck to classical music : sure he did a few like Rachmaninoff, Chopin and Vivaldi... but he skated to so many different styles, Jazz (Take Five) Tango (de los exilados, Esqualo) crooners (Bublé), Broadway (Phantom), Beatles, Leonard Cohen, and even Rock (Dust in the wind, Kansas) and a contemporary piano piece by teammate Eric Radford... and I am not even mentioning show programs... he can do it all... I don't want to derail this thread at all... if you want to discuss this, or explain your point, you can just send me a direct message, but when skaters that are not competing are brought into a competition thread, I always feel a bit edgy, especially if the information given is dubious.

Back to the event, and to the topic :

I do believe that Kaori has a huge personality which transcends the programs. Satoko is all elegance and beauty but it's done at a smaller detail level... not always perceptible from the bleachers... Mai for me, among those I have seen live, was a big disappointment as she was back then skating very small, beautiful like Satoko but reaching out way less... but at NHK, we could see the joy in her. I haven't seen Rika and didn't see this competition but I like her a lot... I think she is the most complete skater right now, so though I haven't seen today's (will watch later) I would tend to say that in past events, i agree with those who think she should be marked a bit higher on PCS.

 

[Skatefan15]

We just completely disagree on Sakamoto's overal skating ability. On edges and flow she is the top. But on most of the other PCS aspects she is inferior to the other top girls and in no way should ever be close to Miyahara in PCS. Other than the fall on the 3A Higuchi was the better skater. Their body control and movement to the music are not even comparable. Sakamoto is very strong on some aspects of PCS, but also very weak on some. That is why so many people are getting sick of the obvious bias. She herself said she expected a lower score. If judged like the others 67 or maybe 68 would have been the most she should have got, with Rika geting 75 or 76.

Yeah we really do disagree on her skating ability I guess. Wakaba made mistakes and it really showed in her performance imo. The Japanese ladies field as a whole has really nice skating skills but the performance aspect does depend on whether they land the jumps (with the exception of Satoko). I think Satoko’s PCS should’ve been higher as well with Kaori’s maybe a point or so less. When Kaori finished, I thought it was going to be in the 69-71 region because without the combo mistake she scores in the 74-76 range (internationally as well). However, I would’ve had Mai above her though since she was clean. But yet again we can agree to disagree with the judgement of the Japanese ladies lol

 

[alexocfp]

Personalities matter. Kaori just has “it” that can’t be taught or learned.

She just makes makes you smile. What a joy to watch.

This is why her scores may seem “inflated.”

 

[Joekaz]

Yeah we really do disagree on her skating ability I guess. Wakaba made mistakes and it really showed in her performance imo. The Japanese ladies field as a whole has really nice skating skills but the performance aspect does depend on whether they land the jumps (with the exception of Satoko). I think Satoko’s PCS should’ve been higher as well with Kaori’s maybe a point or so less. When Kaori finished, I thought it was going to be in the 69-71 region because without the combo mistake she scores in the 74-76 range (internationally as well). However, I would’ve had Mai above her though since she was clean. But yet again we can agree to disagree with the judgement of the Japanese ladies lol

Personalities matter. Kaori just has “it” that can’t be taught or learned.

She just makes makes you smile. What a joy to watch.

This is why her scores may seem “inflated.”

Wakaba does too, but even when she was doing well, she never got any inflation from JSF. Actually it was the opposite.

 

[alexocfp]

Wakaba does too, but even when she was doing well, she never got any inflation from JSF. Actually it was the opposite.

Well, if Wakaba doesn’t benefit in the scoreboard, her “it” is much smaller by definition.

“It” doesn’t count if you don’t gain any advantage from it. Hahaha

 

[Joekaz]

Yeah we really do disagree on her skating ability I guess. Wakaba made mistakes and it really showed in her performance imo. The Japanese ladies field as a whole has really nice skating skills but the performance aspect does depend on whether they land the jumps (with the exception of Satoko). I think Satoko’s PCS should’ve been higher as well with Kaori’s maybe a point or so less. When Kaori finished, I thought it was going to be in the 69-71 region because without the combo mistake she scores in the 74-76 range (internationally as well). However, I would’ve had Mai above her though since she was clean. But yet again we can agree to disagree with the judgement of the Japanese ladies lol

Ok. We disagree. So let me ask you, if they both skate clean in the SP, with Wakaba only doing a 2A to make it fair, what should she get if Kaori

Well, if Wakaba doesn’t benefit in the scoreboard, her “it” is much smaller by definition.

“It” doesn’t count if you don’t gain any advantage from it. Hahaha

It counts with the fans though, even if it doesnt count with the crooks. Lol

 

[Skatefan15]

Wakaba does too, but even when she was doing well, she never got any inflation from JSF. Actually it was the opposite.

I actually do agree that Wakaba has a lot of personality and that’s one of the main things that drew me to her skating in 2016.

 

[Joekaz]

Yeah we really do disagree on her skating ability I guess. Wakaba made mistakes and it really showed in her performance imo. The Japanese ladies field as a whole has really nice skating skills but the performance aspect does depend on whether they land the jumps (with the exception of Satoko). I think Satoko’s PCS should’ve been higher as well with Kaori’s maybe a point or so less. When Kaori finished, I thought it was going to be in the 69-71 region because without the combo mistake she scores in the 74-76 range (internationally as well). However, I would’ve had Mai above her though since she was clean. But yet again we can agree to disagree with the judgement of the Japanese ladies lol

Ok. We disagree. So let me ask you, if they both skate clean in the SP, with Wakaba only doing a 2A to make it fair, what should she get if Kaori gets 74-76?

 

[alexocfp]

It counts with the fans though, even if it doesnt count with the crooks. Lol

Haha.

So I guess the Kaori fan club should be renamed the crooks. Haha

This is part of the fun of figure skating. It’s a sport with a lot of emotional attachment.

 

[Skatefan15]

Ok. We disagree. So let me ask you, if they both skate clean in the SP, with Wakaba only doing a 2A to make it fair, what should she get if Kaori gets 74-76?

Wakaba clean should be 73-75. And the reason I have it slightly different is because I personally think Kaori’s spins are better and she backloads combo. However a lot of the bonus she gets from doing that gets lost when she does her 3Lz (e) instead of loop. Her lutz should always be called imo. For Wakaba it depends on the day in terms of her flip edge, sometimes it’s outside and sometimes it kind of is a flip. Internationally though, Kaori scores higher than Wakaba when both are clean, like at Skate America in 2019 where Kaori got 73 and Wakaba got 71 (and they both had missing levels).

 

[Joekaz]

I actually do agree that Wakaba has a lot of personality and that’s one of the main things that drew me to her skating in 2016.

So Im sure you will agree

Haha.

So I guess the Kaori fan club should be renamed the crooks. Haha

This is part of the fun of figure skating. It’s a sport with a lot of emotional attachment.

No. Fans are free to inflate their skater all they want. But judges and Feds shouldn't. Im sure if you polled all the Wakaba, Rika and Satoko fans, the one thing they would agree on is that Kaori is way overscored, and usually for no logical reason. I doubt that is a coincidence

 

[Joekaz]

Wakaba clean should be 73-75. And the reason I have it slightly different is because I personally think Kaori’s spins are better and she backloads combo. However a lot of the bonus she gets from doing that gets lost when she does her 3Lz (e) instead of loop. Her lutz should always be called imo. For Wakaba it depends on the day in terms of her flip edge, sometimes it’s outside and sometimes it kind of is a flip. Internationally though, Kaori scores higher than Wakaba when both are clean, like at Skate America in 2019 where Kaori got 73 and Wakaba got 71 (and they both had missing levels).

That is reasonable. My opinion is the opposite of course. Wakaba has better steps, body control and musicality. And Fed support affects international scores. Let's not pretend the ISU is a fair organization after all. Lol