2021 Golden Spin of Zagreb: Pairs Free Skate

[ice_tulip]

Ha ha, sure. In terms of talent, the U.S. pairs discipline is deep in talent, whether you think so or not. It's not even debatable, so your dismissive attitude just is what it is. The testament to the U.S. being deep in talent is Lu/Mitrofanov winning Golden Spin of Zagreb, as the U.S. fourth-rated team. Honestly, K/F and C/J have tremendous qualities, which a lot of times is not fully rewarded. Still, both K/F's and C/J's overall quality in comparison to other teams in this field is what kept them relatively high in the standings, when they should have actually both made the podium. I'm saying 3 spots are needed for the U.S., based on the depth of talent. The bottom line is U.S. teams have to convince the judges. They have to earn it, even when the path is made harder for them. They have to believe in themselves when the opportunities arise to grab medals and competitive respect. Come prepared to do battle, or stay home. Easier said than done for every pairs team whether you think so or not.

You mention the Georgian teams. Both are nice-looking teams, but neither are completely polished yet. Both teams need to develop more speed and fine-tuning. The talent is there for both the Georgian teams, and that's exciting. But they need more experience. Quality for quality, C/J and K/F have more talent and experience than the Georgian teams. That's just a fact. You can overlook it because C/J and K/F didn't perform to their abilities at Golden Spin. Clearly, C/J came back from miscues at Warsaw Cup in the sp to beat a lot of teams in the fp (including Metelkina/Parkman, et al) because C/J possess top level talent, and they delivered, even with their sbs jumps in the fp (though that is a huge area of weakness for them that has to improve asap).

As I said, K/F were in a great position at Golden Spin to win gold and they faltered. They can't afford that. But for you to interpret this one competition to mean the U.S. doesn't have depth of talent in pairs, is ridiculous. You are being overly dismissive. Obviously, U.S. teams have to back-up their talent when it counts. But honestly, the judges never give U.S. teams any gifts, nor even a great deal of respect. They have to work hard for everything all the time. When K/F and C/J do what they can do, they have speed, power, pop, and great ice coverage (which the Georgian teams do not fully have yet). K/F have fabulous throws with huge height and distance, but they didn't show that asset here. Managing nerves is what they have to figure out. Plus, I'm not sure why K/F's twist isn't looking as good as it has previously. C/J have the best twist in the world, right up there with Tarasova/ Morosov, hands-down!

Obviously, no team, especially not U.S. teams can afford the butthead mistakes and lapses we've seen from K/F and C/J this fall. C/J came storming back at Warsaw Cup to take silver behind Tarasova/Morosov, so they should have called it a fall season, and went home to work on being prepared with their jumps for U.S. Nationals. Now, they end the fall portion of the season on a down note, along with K/F. What both teams need to do is to believe in themselves, because they should be scoring over 70+ every time out. They both have that level of talent, and we have seen it in competition. The judges are seemingly reluctant to reward certain teams in areas where they have quality, especially when they make mistakes. So consistency is the goal in pairs skating for everyone.

Except, Russian teams can get away with mistakes and still receive high scores. Case in point: I see that James/Radford won the fp at Golden Spin, but their score should have been at least 190 to 191. They were low-balled on PCS. The judges just didn't go with their performance the way they might have had J/R skated in the final group (which means not missing their twist in the sp). I also think that J/R's sp 56+ score was a bit low just for a missed twist. Yes, they made a mistake, but it shouldn't have taken them down that far. Apparently, it woke them up, and they came battling back in the fp. So I hope J/R leave Zagreb hungry to show up and show out at Canadian Nationals. I think J/R should have made the podium here over the Russians, Artemeva/Nazarychev. A/N had a fall in their fp, so they didn't skate clean in either program. I think A/N were given too much leeway from the judges because they generally have solid tech elements and they are Russian. Still, they aren't completely polished and mature. James/ Radford's polish, maturity and experience should count for much more when they skate well. The judges held back on them.

Kirsten looks like she's completely checked out. I don't think she should have taken J/R's pairing so hard, if that's what part of the problem is. It looks like Kirsten is the one having issues keeping it together in competition, not Michael.

Very well said! Thank you for your posts about pairs. I enjoy reading them.

 

[CoyoteChris]

I have seen three worlds fairs and a goat roping contest and I have never seen anything like this! (Poor Alexa...hope she isnt hurt.)
Congrats to Audrey and Misha!
View attachment 4673

 

[gold12345]

Honestly, with their quality, K/F are not being fully respected by the judges, which probably adds to their nerves. I was just so disappointed to see them not win in this relatively middle to lower-tier field. Especially, when first place was in their grasp. Also, they need to fix whatever is going wrong with their twist.

Agree, except this wasn't a lower-tier field. This field had pairs on the fringe of the GPF, James/Radford who are a high quality team, teams who were 6th & 7th at the most recent Worlds... On paper, this was a good field for a Sr B. But the pairs skated pretty far below their ability, and in turn it was a low scoring event, and we ended up with an odd result where 195 points was surprisingly enough to win, and the winner of the FS didn't even get on the podium after a very low SP score. This is certainly not the first Challenger event that has had a strange result.

Knierim/Frazier should have won this, so yeah it's disappointing they didn't show what they can do. You want pairs to win all the events they're supposed to win, and it takes time to learn how to do that, but they've also done well at just about every competition they've entered, so they have shown good competitive toughness despite always having the target on their backs domestically. I agree they must continue working on having a calmness and trust/confidence in themselves under pressure (I could say this for most top pairs in the world). But they haven't shown chronic issues with nerves. Brandon's couple of weird jump errors from the GP disappeared here. Alexa has jumped great this season, but was tentative today. The q call they received in the SP was a bit shocking, and I don't know if that helped her nerves for today. Their twist was great 3 weeks ago, but was weird here. The camera work here didn't help, as it made truly every pair's twist look weird. When has Alexa ever splatted like that on a throw? Not since I've followed her. Hopefully she's fine. The throw is very late in their LP and maybe they'll consider putting it earlier. No they don't baby the throws into the air and skate clean every time, but they have potential to score big even without clean skates, which is what top pairs do.

That's why I think they should have ended their high note at Warsaw Cup and called it a fall season, gone home and prepared for U.S. Nationals. I've spoken about the unfortunate loss of momentum and bad luck C/J have been up against, when they should have two appearances at Worlds under their belts by now, if not for the pandemic, and that Murphy's Law drug-related mishap.

The pandemic affected everyone in some way and took away competition opportunities for all skaters, but it's especially rough to miss Worlds twice, yes. Between that and not even doing 2 GPs, you probably need/want to take every opportunity to compete that you can. Calalang/Johnson are quite inconsistent, so I could see why they would want another competition outing. Both them and K/F scored quite a bit lower than their season averages here, and I guess they could have just skipped this event and rested. But it seems counterproductive to have our pairs hide from competitions and be afraid of making mistakes. K/F need to make mistakes as a newer team, so they can learn how to handle it together and prepare themselves for anything. But you can't prepare for all the scenarios unless you compete. This event wasn't critical for K/F. They weren't going to prove more than we already knew about them by winning this event over L/M, who they've always outscored. This score for K/F's roughest competition is to close to what L/M have scored for some of their better skates.

Obviously, I don't know what's going to happen at U.S. Nationals, keeping in mind that U.S. fed often makes decisions based on favoritism. But I agree K/F deserve to go to Worlds and Olympics.

The U.S. fed takes international scores and scoring potential into account, at least recently. The Olympic selection in 2014 was way too Nationals-centric (just for pairs; in ladies they took international competitiveness into account), and it seems they've learned from that. There's detailed Olympic selection criteria now, although it still gives them some leeway. The criteria says they will examine median scores, I believe. Pairs who have a median as high as the top 5 score from Worlds last season get highest priority for Olympic selection. Knierim/Frazier are in that group. The other top pairs fall into the next tier. K/F have the highest averages no matter how we do the math, and that's our best potential scoring team. At least you give yourself a chance with them. L/M's score at a Challenger (where start order doesn't hurt to the degree it would at a major event) doesn't upset that apple cart, but it possibly complicated predictions for the second spot. A convincing second spot frontrunner hasn't really emerged. But the best way to determine your best skater is to look across a series of competitions instead of heaping a ton of pressure on your top skaters at Nationals. It seems all countries realize this now.

Check out what it takes from true champions at the highest level: Savchenko/Massot were in 4th place after one tiny mistake in the sp at the 2018 Olympics (Bruno performed a sbs double instead of a triple). With that one mistake, they still knew they had a chance. They didn't entertain any other notions, or worry about the judges and their competitors. They knew what they could do and they believed they could do it. That's what enabled them to come out and perform the way they did in the fp, in iconic style (backed up by training and years of experience and hard work). However, Savchenko's focus and desire truthfully is something very rare. Bruno raised his level, because he was determined to help her finally win Olympic gold (for himself too).

I get what you're saying, and sure we could compare Knierim/Frazier to one of the greatest pairs of all time 1 year into their partnership, but it just feels like a unfair comparison. Even so, Savchenko needed 5 Olympics and made countless errors on her way to winning gold. She also had zero pressure to maintain her perch on top of German pairs. Some skaters need domestic competition to motivate them, but for someone as self-motivated as Savchenko, she was better without it. German Nationals was a practice run, and she was entirely focused on competing with the world's best. If she messed up an event, nobody dwelled on it, it was just part of the game. Onto the next event. Golden Spin tends to have a ton of withdrawals. Not a crucial event for a higher ranked skater.

 

[withwings]

I have seen three worlds fairs and a goat roping contest and I have never seen anything like this! (Poor Alexa...hope she isnt hurt.)
Congrats to Audrey and Misha!
View attachment 4673

Why do you even post this screen shot...I do not think it is of any help to anyone.

 

[labgoat]

MTM are just in such a funk! I wonder if it's a crisis of confidence when performing or if training is off as well? The quality of their pair elements has definitely declined, particularly the twist.

Sadly this is starting to remind me of Lubov & Dylan when he was very injured going into nationals and it was kept quiet.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Saying Georgia deserves 2 pairs spots more than the US deserves 3 spots right after 3 US pairs just placed ahead of the 2nd Georgian pair (with one of those US pairs scoring drastically lower than they usually score) doesn't make much sense. But I agree Georgia deserves 2 pairs spots... and the US also deserves 3 spots. The way the ISU allocates spots is faulty and turns Worlds into an enormous pressure cooker when it doesn't need to be; skaters shouldn't be responsible for earning Worlds spots for other skaters. The magic number of "13 to get 3 spots" is random. Why not 2 skaters in the top 10 to get 3 spots? Spots should be based on something like world ranking and representation on the GP. The US pairs don't always score great, but they score well enough to have the right to send 3 skaters to compete.

Rest of the post is great, but I kinda disagree with the whole thing about worlds. Giving out spots via the magic number is the most sensible way to do it? It might not be, but at the end of the day this is competition. And if these athletes can’t handle the pressure of doing it, maybe they can move on to shows. Every form of qualification will have its downsides, but the end result of any of them will lie in how the athlete perform, and a bunch of them will have to learn how to perform under pressure to excel.

It’s kind of what happened to the top Georgian pair here, pressure to skate as the best one after the SP might have gotten to them. And that fine, it happens. But I’m sure they’re not gonna blame ISU because they had to skate last and they couldn’t deal with that. Ultimately is the skater that goes in the ice to perform and, most of the time, they are in compete control of how they compete. Scores are impossible to predict, but they’ve got to be ready to deliver.

Also, many athletes are high up in the rankings because they collects points doing senior Bs all season in less competitive fields, so they might even be higher up in the rankings than others. And how about representation on the GP, are we ready to give Russia, like, five spots for Worlds?

 

[labgoat]

Well I am THRILLED.

I like Audrey and Misha, and good for them for keeping it together. This is an important win.

All great athletes have to have had a breakthough moment at some time or other, and perhaps this will instill the confidence necessary to polish their skills and presentation and take their skating to another level.

Many times a skater or team wins ahead of schedule. They are important wins. Often those skaters go on to be our champs - names like Tai & Randy, Tiffany Chin, Gordeeva/ Grinkov, Yamaguchi, Kwan, Cohen, Lysacek, Sarah Hughes, Belbin/Agosto and Davis & White.

 

[gold12345]

Gordeeva/Grinkov? Kwan? Davis/White?

I didn't know people took Senior Bs that seriously lol. Someone tell the Golden Spin organizers how important this event is, because then maybe they'll book a hotel closer than an hour away from the arena. There were actual dozens of skaters who W/D from this competition, something like 50 entries, they must not have gotten the memo that it was a path to Kwan-like glory.

L/M did their best, but it was an unlikely medal for them, and they needed James/Radford, Knierim/Frazier, and Artemeva/Nazarychev to all seriously botch a program in a way they hadn't yet this season. J/R literally didn't do a twist. There were fluke things happening out there. Everyone scored lower. It was like everyone was saying "here L/M, you can have this one".

Everyone follows pair skating to different degrees, but in all disciplines, there have been some random winners at Sr Bs throughout the years. Evgeni Krasnopolski won Golden Spin with one of his partners once! Kemp/King won Golden Spin back in the day. A US pair named Barnhart/Bernard once won Golden Spin; I couldn't tell you a thing about them aside from that.

Rest of the post is great, but I kinda disagree with the whole thing about worlds. Giving out spots via the magic number is the most sensible way to do it? It might not be, but at the end of the day this is competition. And if these athletes can’t handle the pressure of doing it, maybe they can move on to shows. Every form of qualification will have its downsides, but the end result of any of them will lie in how the athlete perform, and a bunch of them will have to learn how to perform under pressure to excel.

It’s kind of what happened to the top Georgian pair here, pressure to skate as the best one after the SP might have gotten to them. And that fine, it happens. But I’m sure they’re not gonna blame ISU because they had to skate last and they couldn’t deal with that. Ultimately is the skater that goes in the ice to perform and, most of the time, they are in compete control of how they compete. Scores are impossible to predict, but they’ve got to be ready to deliver.

Also, many athletes are high up in the rankings because they collects points doing senior Bs all season in less competitive fields, so they might even be higher up in the rankings than others. And how about representation on the GP, are we ready to give Russia, like, five spots for Worlds?

I agree with you, keep the max spots at 3. But the magical number of 13 to qualify 3 spots is a little random isn't it? I wonder how they settled on that number in the first place. Is 7th and 8th place really not deserving of having a 3rd person even compete? What if that third skater is capable of top 10? Then there are the instances where a country like Kazakhstan will qualify multiple spots when they don't even have more than one world level skater. It's possible to make a less flawed system.

Worlds is obviously a pressure-packed event in itself. But then adding the "Spots at future events" component to it adds another layer instead of just making Worlds about, well, Worlds.

You're right that the World Standings are also flawed. That's why I suggested some sort of combination of World Standings, GP Standings, whatever else to figure out spots. Obviously it would require some brainstorming. No more than 3 per country of course. Or we can just continue to give multiple spots to countries that literally one have one World level skater. As if that is the best system we could come up with.

 

[dorispulaski]

The Golden Spin organizers are completely ignoring that it is the final event in the Challengers Series, which determines which skaters get the monetary prizes for the series, so it is not just a Senior B, it is a big time Senior B, second in importance behind Nebelhorn, which was the Olympic selection event. They need to promote their event better.

 

[labgoat]

Gordeeva/Grinkov? Kwan? Davis/White?

I didn't know people took Senior Bs that seriously lol. Someone tell the Golden Spin organizers how important this event is, because then maybe they'll book a hotel closer than an hour away from the arena. There were actual dozens of skaters who W/D from this competition, something like 50 entries, they must not have gotten the memo that it was a path to Kwan-like glory.

L/M did their best, but it was an unlikely medal for them, and they needed James/Radford, Knierim/Frazier, and Artemeva/Nazarychev to all seriously botch a program in a way they hadn't yet this season. J/R literally didn't do a twist. There were fluke things happening out there. Everyone scored lower. It was like everyone was saying "here L/M, you can have this one".

Everyone follows pair skating to different degrees, but in all disciplines, there have been some random winners at Sr Bs throughout the years. Evgeni Krasnopolski won Golden Spin with one of his partners once! Kemp/King won Golden Spin back in the day. A US pair named Barnhart/Bernard once won Golden Spin; I couldn't tell you a thing about them aside from that.




I agree with you, keep the max spots at 3. But the magical number of 13 to qualify 3 spots is a little random isn't it? I wonder how they settled on that number in the first place. Is 7th and 8th place really not deserving of having a 3rd person even compete? What if that third skater is capable of top 10? Then there are the instances where a country like Kazakhstan will qualify multiple spots when they don't even have more than one world level skater. It's possible to make a less flawed system.

Worlds is obviously a pressure-packed event in itself. But then adding the "Spots at future events" component to it adds another layer instead of just making Worlds about, well, Worlds.

You're right that the World Standings are also flawed. That's why I suggested some sort of combination of World Standings, GP Standings, whatever else to figure out spots. Obviously it would require some brainstorming. No more than 3 per country of course. Or we can just continue to give multiple spots to countries that literally one have one World level skater. As if that is the best system we could come up with.

I think you miss my point. It is not so much Golden Spin or any other challenger but the fact that some of these wins are the emergence of the next crop of challengers. I take your point some are not. The pair I site is building a BOW based on their technical skills as did every skater cited. Most started out as the bridesmaids or understudies and were underrated as stylists,boy did some of them learn fast. Yes,some won by consistency as others faltered. How many events have you seen where the favorites succumb to pressure or make mistakes only to get beaten by emerging talents. Keep an eye on these skaters, what happens after many others retire and they gain access to top coaches and choreographers. Watch and see if they learn and grow and advance. The difference between baby Yamaguchi,Kwan and Sarah in a years time can be impressive. Will this team be a future stars worthy of mention in the group above - I don't know. But I've seen enough go this path to pay close attention to the possibility.

Recent skaters ahead of schedule include Yuma Kagiyama, Vincent Zhou, Mishina & Galiamov, Papadakis & Cizeron, Fear & Gibson. Please add more if you see my point. All of these skaters medaled much sooner or placed higher than expected. They are now players and the veterans are on notice. It is fascinating to see the emergence of the new talents and sometimes sad to see the veterans falter especially when an Olympic spot is lost. Will the new kids prove their win was not a fluke or will the veterans wake up and reassert their talent and experience?

 

[TontoK]

@labgoat has the correct perspective. Every single legendary champion had to start somewhere.

Will Audrey and Misha become truly great skaters? I don't know. I hope so because there is something about them that I find appealing. If they do, perhaps they'll look back on this win as the catalyst they needed.

The fact that better regarded skaters did not perform up to their abilities is irrelevant. While others didn't hold it together, Audrey and Misha did, and that's a big deal.

 

[labgoat]

@labgoat has the correct perspective. Every single legendary champion had to start somewhere.

Will Audrey and Misha become truly great skaters? I don't know. I hope so because there is something about them that I find appealing. If they do, perhaps they'll look back on this win as the catalyst they needed.

The fact that better regarded skaters did not perform up to their abilities is irrelevant. While others didn't hold it together, Audrey and Misha did, and that's a big deal.

With so little time until nationals, it seems the veterans are getting more jittery and Audrey & Misha more solid. An upset could be in the making or this is the wake up call the veterans needed. US National pairs will be fascinating, terrifying and heartbreaking at the same time.

About the young skaters, it is important to note that I grew up watching a 13 & 15 year old Tai & Randy make the world team.

Tai & Randy 1973 US Jr Nationals

Little Tai and Randy

1973 US National Jr. Pair Champions

youtu.be

Tai & Randy 1974 US Nationals - 2nd place

Tai and Randy 2

1974 US NAtional Senior pairs long program - Second PLace

youtu.be

 

[labgoat]

Who beat Tai & Randy in 1974?

1974 Melissa Militano Johhny Johns Worlds LP

HOLY KATSENJAMMER!!! Melissa and Johnny take to Worlds for the first time, creating some of skating's legendary COMMENTARY!!! For months afterwards, in rin...

youtu.be

Yes that Johnny Johns...

 

[CoyoteChris]

Why do you even post this screen shot...I do not think it is of any help to anyone.

It is important for two reasons. One, Alexa was not having a good skate when this happened...one has to wonder if she was sick or injured to begin with. This was a hard fall on a throw....sometimes, athletes get up and go on due to the body's response. It may be a day before she feels it. I hope she is all right. Two, I cant remember many events when there was such a disconnect between the performances in the short and free. Under the old system, if you were in the top 3, IIRC, you controlled your own fate. Here, its all about the points. Not saying that is wrong, but when was the last time you saw a team do a four and four and get second place? Lots of good and bad skating. Sometimes I think the seasons are now too long.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Agree, except this wasn't a lower-tier field.

Apparently, you didn't see that I said "middle to lower-tier" teams. That designation is accurate.

Plus, I was characterizing the field in relation to 3 major teams (K/F, C/J, and J/R, with potentially a 4th in A/N, as teams in the middle tier who are able to score high 60s and low 70s, on the cusp of being at the top level). Therefore, only 3 to 4 teams can be categorized as being right at the cusp of movement to the top level. And, I was indicating that this competition provided those teams with a chance to make a statement (without any top Russians or top Chinese teams competing). The young Russian team, A/N, are new to seniors. They can and have scored anywhere from low 60s to very low 70s, but they're Russian, which tends to give them points advantages and perception advantages -- still they have no chance to make Worlds or Olympics currently; they are a young, developing team on a par with the U.S.'s Lu/Mitrofanov. A/N have strong elements, but they had a fall in the fp (and made mistakes in both programs); they should not have edged J/R in the overall standings, IMO.

J/R were lowballed on PCS in both programs, albeit they won the fp. Had judges not been so harsh on them for the missed twist in the sp, J/R might even have edged L/M for the win. J/R most certainly should have been on the podium. If they were a Russian team, they would have been, as the judges would not have dumped them into the 50s range for that fluke error. Still, the low disregard managed to shake J/R up to storm back with a clean fp.

I didn't include the two Georgian teams as being on the cusp of the top tier, although they certainly have the potential to move up over the next four years. Right now, they are clearly middle-tier in terms of scoring and judges' perception. I don't know how new the Georgian teams are, or how long they've been together. Perhaps one or both previously competed in juniors. They are exciting teams to watch. Of the two teams, I am more drawn to Metelkina/ Parkman. KM-T/MM have scored over 70+ in the past, but they've been on a downward spiral this season, and so I didn't see them as a serious competitive threat coming into the competition. Still, I thought it might be possible for them to turn things around a bit by getting some solid performances under their belts. But that didn't happen.

The last nine placements, out of the 17 entries, are all lower-tier teams. By that designation, I mean they tend to score in the 50s, with a few currently high 40s. And the other part of the lower-tier categorization is that all of these nine teams are either still developing, or new pairings. Only Walsh/Michaud have been around for awhile, as they skated in juniors, but they generally score mid-to-high 50s, and sometimes low 60s. In my estimation, W/M currently do not have the talent potential as a team to move to middle-tier status (mid-to-high 60s consistently). If Trennt wishes to move to the next level, he needs to find a less tall partner with skills more at his level. I know experienced pairs guys, Harley Windsor, Balazs Nagy, and Evgeni Krasnopolski competed with new partners, so they are all among the nine lower-tier teams. I'm under the impression that the other two Australian teams are new. In fact, one of the latter two teams, Young/Lewer, are at an even lower tier (mid-30s in sp) due to being at an early learning stage.

ISU CS 53rd GOLDEN SPIN OF ZAGREB 2021 - PAIRS

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I get what you're saying, and sure we could compare Knierim/Frazier to one of the greatest pairs of all time 1 year into their partnership, but it just feels like a unfair comparison.

Huh? I wasn't comparing K/F to Savchenko/Massot. You're misinterpreting my comments. I was using Aljona Savchenko in particular, as an example of an extraordinary champion with a calm, centered mindset competitively. If you notice more carefully, I indicated how rare Aljona's passion to win is, coupled with her nearly obsessive desire to continually compete and to be the best, and to never rest on her laurels. She's a risk-taker, with steely, single-minded focus and self-belief. Not everybody can be that way, and being that way can have its drawbacks too. OTOH, it can take you far in reaching goals, yet you might lose friends along the way too, unless you have a more open, charismatic personality that gives a measure of allowances for failure.

Aljona Savchenko strikes me as a harsh taskmaster and a perfectionist. When Aljona fell in competition, it was usually because she was trying to advance her difficulty; e.g., trying to land a throw 3-axel, and looking to pull off a high and far triple flip landing (or was it a 3-loop?) at the very tail end of a program, for bonus points! Who does that? Who can calmly and determinedly come back from 4th place in the sp to win gold at the Olympics in a pressure cooker situation, with three very accomplished pairs teams in front of you, skating first out of that group??? And it's your 4th Olympics, so by all intents and purposes, it's your last best opportunity to try and grab gold! Ummm, I don't think anyone has ever done that before in the way that it was done, except Aljona Savchenko (w/ her partners, of course).

Now, obviously, Alexa is a fierce pairs diva, and she dearly wants to win. Brandon definitely has deep desires to win. In a way, they both are probably trying to balance the joy they've found in competing together, while trying to develop a strong, competitive mindset. And they are still in a partnership 'learning each other' phase as well. They have to balance nerves and wanting it too badly, by finding a way to harness calm intensity, in order to maintain focus and self-belief. That's not easy to do. Not everyone is Nathan Chen.

I will offer reflections on some of your other comments in the U.S. Pairs thread, since a focus on U.S. pairs and U.S. nationals is off-topic in this thread. And in any case, our conversation is going beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

L/M did their best, but it was an unlikely medal for them, and they needed James/Radford, Knierim/Frazier, and Artemeva/Nazarychev to all seriously botch a program in a way they hadn't yet this season. J/R literally didn't do a twist. There were fluke things happening out there. Everyone scored lower. It was like everyone was saying "here L/M, you can have this one".

I think the better way to say that is, 'L/M's win was unexpected.' Forget about 'unlikely,' because they won gold! They upped their level and skated two clean programs extremely well in a competitive field, and they deserved to win. L/M did not need anyone else but themselves and their coaches to skate their best, and let the chips fall where they may. L/M came ready to compete and nothing fazed them. Good for them! It's certainly nice to see, and kudos to them. I don't think by a long shot that they aren't going to go right back to their rink and continue working hard. They still have a lot of work to do. Once again, no team 'needs' anyone else to 'botch' a program. The best competitive attitude any athlete should have is to focus on fulfilling their potential, and taking care of their own business, not worrying about 'needing others to make mistakes.'

As I said earlier, pairs at 2021 Golden Spin is a middle to lower-tier field, with only about 3 to 4 teams who have the potential right now to score 70+ and they have done so previously (J/R with their former partners, of course). I'm not including KM-T/MM simply because they don't seem to be carrying themselves this season in a way that says, "I want to win." The two Georgian teams are in the middle tier and will surely advance further over the next four years. But they still have to develop precision, consistency, and polish.

It is important for two reasons. One, Alexa was not having a good skate when this happened...one has to wonder if she was sick or injured to begin with. This was a hard fall on a throw

I think the point @withwings was making is that the screenshot wasn't necessary to post, especially not at that angle. Everyone who viewed the competition can clearly remember what happened. Those who haven't seen the competition would be better served by seeing full videos of performances.

It's possible to talk about concern over the 'hard fall,' without posting that screenshot.

ETA:
Alexa could have injured herself in the fall -- hopefully not. If she was sick or injured prior to competing, she shouldn't have been competing. This is not a must-do competition, by any means. They are unlikely to have made the trip if either of them were sick or injured beforehand. There could be something personal going on, but again, as an athlete, if you plan to compete, then you know you need to be present while competing, and not worrying about other things. The rest, of course, is about learning how to manage nerves, in the moment, and staying in sync with your partner.

 

[withwings]

I think the point @withwings was making is that the screenshot wasn't necessary to post, especially not at that angle. Everyone who viewed the competition can clearly remember what happened. Those who haven't seen the competition would be better served by seeing full videos of performances.

It's possible to talk about concern over the 'hard fall,' without posting that screenshot.

Thank you. It is exactly what I meant.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Definitely deserved more PCS here, but I'm not sure they're yet top 5. Although, the American pairs are giving them all the chances, and on the right day, they might even sneak into the podium and surprise one or two of the Russian pairs.

I think they will be behind the Russians and S/H but can beat P/J. The one keeping them out of the top 5 is the Japanese pair who tbh should place higher if both pairs are clean because their elements are way more interesting and cleaner but J/R if they get it together can be really spectacular and I could picture them playing a bit of a spoiler. Certainly they would give Canada an outside shot of a team medal.

 

[CoyoteChris]

I think the better way to say that is, 'L/M's win was unexpected.' Forget about 'unlikely,' because they won gold! They upped their level and skated two clean programs extremely well in a competitive field, and they deserved to win. L/M did not need anyone else but themselves and their coaches to skate their best, and let the chips fall where they may. L/M came ready to compete and nothing fazed them. Good for them! It's certainly nice to see, and kudos to them. I don't think by a long shot that they aren't going to go right back to their rink and continue working hard. They still have a lot of work to do. Once again, no team 'needs' anyone else to 'botch' a program. The best competitive attitude any athlete should have is to focus on fulfilling their potential, and taking care of their own business, not worrying about 'needing others to make mistakes.'

As I said earlier, pairs at 2021 Golden Spin is a middle to lower-tier field, with only about 3 to 4 teams who have the potential right now to score 70+ and they have done so previously (J/R with their former partners, of course). I'm not including KM-T/MM simply because they don't seem to be carrying themselves this season in a way that says, "I want to win." The two Georgian teams are in the middle tier and will surely advance further over the next four years. But they still have to develop precision, consistency, and polish.


I think the point @withwings was making is that the screenshot wasn't necessary to post, especially not at that angle. Everyone who viewed the competition can clearly remember what happened. Those who haven't seen the competition would be better served by seeing full videos of performances.

It's possible to talk about concern over the 'hard fall,' without posting that screenshot.

ETA:
Alexa could have injured herself in the fall -- hopefully not. If she was sick or injured prior to competing, she shouldn't have been competing. This is not a must-do competition, by any means. They are unlikely to have made the trip if either of them were sick or injured beforehand. There could be something personal going on, but again, as an athlete, if you plan to compete, then you know you need to be present while competing, and not worrying about other things. The rest, of course, is about learning how to manage nerves, in the moment, and staying in sync with your partner.

Yes, there is the point of the shot being unflatering/shocking or what every you want to call it...I have taken the pic down. I never put up the pic I made of Danny and Chelsea so I could see what happened...since obviously there were injuries. There is another point about the pic though, and you have to watch the video and stop it and back up....landing on your tush is one thing....landing on the small of your back is another....I think this is analogous to what happened to C/L when she fell / was dropped on her head...in both cases, someone was watching out for them....let us hope Alexa was just having a bad a day and a bad skate and wasnt injured/sick before the fall.
(BTW, I do agree that if a skater is sick or injured, they shouldnt be competing and shouldnt lie to the USFS like a certain US lady did, was caught, and fined. Sure, these skaters are very competitive (like Alexa) but the eye should be on the prize....getting to nats healthy and refreshed...Tara L. and I agree on one thing....there is this letdown and recovery period after any comp. A long flight home, jet lag, taking care of things you missed....and then prep for the next comp. Lets hope they are in good form for nats....)