2021 World Team Trophy - Day 2

[gold12345]

The US should have had the silver medal all wrapped up by now but with the weaker US Ice Dance team finishing 3rd in both portions and K/F getting beat by a Japanese Pairs team of all things they now will have to fight for it.

It may be shocking, but that Japanese pairs team was top 10 at Worlds and is no slouch. Pairs scores in the SP tend to get bunched together, especially if they make mistakes, and there were three pairs that ended up within a fraction of a point of each other. K/F got a little unlucky there, but I was just glad to see them look more relaxed and do the jumps well like they normally do and not be so nervous about making a mistake. That throw looked off as soon as he threw her, and that will happen when you're a new pair still trying to feel your way through everything. He throws her with tremendous distance, almost too far sometimes. I've never seen Alexa fall on a SP throw before. But it didn't impact the team standings much.

I'd say Jason placing 8th being Grassl in the FS is the main reason why the US doesn't have the silver medal locked up. That was a real opportunity to surpass Shoma who was only 6th and pretty much lock up the silver, but instead he placed even lower. I don't know the last time I've seen Jason fall on a 3Lz.

Also, Hawayek/Baker's lower results wouldn't have been a big deal had the Japanese dance team finished last, but they weren't last in either segment thanks to Canada's skaters all being in quarantine. So the US didn't get as much separation from Japan there as they normally would even without having Hubbell/Donohue or Chock/Bates.

 

[ladyjane]

Last and least for me (my order in what I love in figure Skating is Pairs, Men, Dance and Women), and today I watched in the for me 'right' order and ended with Dance.

Again, it seems that Carolane and Shane were stuck at the level I've seen from them a few years ago. A pity. Not that they had a bad skate or anything like that, but it just didn't do it for me. They have a lot of potential, but they really need to move forward. After what I've seen from other Canadian couples at the WC, I expected more.

Misato and Takeru (Tim) had a fine skate. Not spectacular, a bit old-fashioned, but still quite good.

I have become a big fan of Adelina and Louis. Beautiful Dance, moving, and they may not yet be at the top in ID, but they definitely look very promising indeed. A real pity France has only one spot at the OG next year.

Their Dance is fantastic, but somehow Kaitlin and Jean-Luc just don't get the points. I can understand Kaitlin's frustrated look in the K&C. I understood from the scoring that it was mostly the technical part. I truly hope they can work on that and improve. But for a less than knowledgeable viewer, it's seems odd that the difference with the Italians was so big. Don't get me wrong, I would have Kaitlin and Jean-Luc behind the Italians too. But 14 points difference?

Charlene and Marco just get better and better. Beautiful Dance. I've been thinking that for the whole season (and luckily in this strange season I got to see these two quite a few times) and they keep on improving.

Victoria and Nikita had another great showing. Good Dance with great sliding moves (not great as in 'big' but great as in 'subtle and elegant').

Another great event!

 

[TontoK]

I'd say Jason placing 8th being Grassl in the FS is the main reason why the US doesn't have the silver medal locked up. That was a real opportunity to surpass Shoma who was only 6th and pretty much lock up the silver, but instead he placed even lower. I don't know the last time I've seen Jason fall on a 3Lz.

To be fair, it wasn't just that it was a fall on the 3Z. I believe that was his 3 jump combo. So, instead of 3Z-Eu-3S with a second half bonus and the good GOE that he normally gets, he scored half-value for the 3Z and a -1 fall deduction.

It's just one of those things that happen. In this case it had a big impact on score and his ultimate placement in this segment, but it's not indicative of much else beyond that.

 

[gold12345]

Bradie and Karen also underperformed in the SP as did Jason in the LP. I haven’t jumped on the Alexa/Brandon bandwagon yet, but it blew my mind that some people were already predicting or expecting them to potentially be top 5 in the world already in just their first season. A reality check is definitely in order. Sadly, all the American pairs struggle with consistency in international competition and no team should be considered a lock for the Olympics at this point. More than any other discipline in the US, I think those 2 Olympic spots will be decided at Nationals because no team has really stepped up to the plate internationally as legitimate challengers to M-T/M, which has been the goal of the USFSA. K/F, C-G/L, and C/J are all pretty evenly matched. I keep hearing people say give Alexa and Brandon more time, but the truth is this team is attempting the same level of technical content they always have while the top teams in the world are passing the US by with more difficult technical and artistic content. The choreography and transitions of Alexa and Brandon are very basic compared to the top teams in the world and these two are considered very experienced veteran competitors. The US is really going to have to step everything up to challenge for top 5 in the World looking at all the top pairs teams from Russia and China.

Did we think Alexa & Brandon were going to go through their entire partnership without ever falling on anything? It's literally their first fall in a competition. The rest of the program was better than at Worlds with strong jumps, so they can be pleased with that. I don't get people's unrealistic expectations. I would never even expect the veteran Russian and Chinese pairs to skate lights out all the time, never mind a new pair.

I feel like this should be obvious, but when you switch pair partners, it takes a lot of time to get used to the new person and you need more than 3 competitions together. A brand new pair placing 7th at Worlds (with a legitimate chance at top 5 had they skated more like themselves) is very encouraging. You're expecting too much from a new team, while at the same time underestimating their capabilities.

Looking at this objectively, Alexa/Brandon have already established themselves as legit challengers to M-T/M. They placed right behind them at Worlds, just 3 points back-- with M-T/M skating a solid LP and K/F making several bigger errors. And yes, while it was unlikely for a new pair to place top 5 at Worlds in their third competition ever, it was actually possible based on the skates K/F have been producing this season, including the very high scores they earned in the ISU tech minimum video "competition" right before Worlds-- their SP TES would have been 2nd at Worlds, their LP TES would have been 3rd. The claim about the top teams blowing us away in technical content isn't true-- if anything there's been an obvious push in pairs lately to take out content for the sake of quality. Peng/Jin have even made GPF podiums with intentional double salchows.

M-T/M have been skating together for a long time. You must not recall their struggles early on in their partnership. I remember 'The Skating Lesson' telling Kirsten to go back to Dylan after Year 1, it was that rough. Fortunately for them they stayed the course. Pair partners aren't interchangeable, and when you switch to a different partner, everything feels foreign and has to be "relearned", especially when the partners come from differing backgrounds. Volosozhar/Trankov are a rare exception who rocketed onto the World podium in their first season, but that's not a normal trajectory for a new pair. Yes, a new pair will make mistakes, and so will all the pairs who've been together for years. Brandon doubled his SP jump at Worlds; the reigning World Champs doubled their SP jump here at WTT. Of course you want skaters to skate at their full potential, but it doesn't always happen. That's sports. But K/F are still doing much better than most new pairs do.

A new pair would typically debut at a local competition or exhibition somewhere, or maybe do a couple Sr Bs and GP events. But this isn't a normal season. One of Alexa & Brandon's first events was Worlds. They also had quite different throw/twist techniques coming into this partnership, and they've come a long way in merging those, but it needs more time. They have bigger throws than most pairs (all the pairs are basically doing the same throws, so having bigger throws differentiates you), so they won't all be perfect and if one goes haywire, that's just a normal growing pain. They obviously have potential to be more consistent than Alexa & Chris were and that's all that really matters. I'm not expecting perfection from any of these pairs.

 

[eppen]

Only watched the men yesterday. Not too many great things, but some interesting details. Nam's steps were a bit of an homage to javier Fernández's Man of La Plancha (however, could have been perhaps better not to do it that way bcs the comparison is brutal to Nam. Though I am not sure if anyone else but me and maybe two other Javi freaks actually noticed ).

I still think that Jason is no good at making characters or telling actual stories - the choreo features some nifty details, but without much connection with anything. It is clearly honoring a 1948 version of Slaughther on 10th Avenue with Gene Kelly, so I guess the FS follows the story line and all, I just can't make head or tails of what is supposedly happening.

Watching Semenenko is a bit like eating a bit of good-looking fruit that is after all not mature - all the parts fulfil the job, but it tastes and feels like eating cardboard. Kevin Aymoz, on the other hand, is never cardboard, not even when the tech side is not really working for him.

For the top two, it was interesting to see them head to head with the same kind of content - four quads and two 3As. Neither was obviously truly brilliant (both need the tech side to shine to be truly interesting to watch), but even if neither had done their biggest mistakes, Nathan would have won. IMO Nathan beats Hanyu also clearly with more original music and theme choices - Heaven and Earth is after all just a version of Seimei. But I do wonder if the end game for Nathan is 5 quads and 2 3As for next season?

E

 

[1111bm]

Far be it from me to defend WTT, which is - hands down - the most ridiculous competition of the year. I watch it because of the individuals - not the team thing. But, if you're going to go with the middle school "team" hype, complete with wigs and pompoms, then you have to be prepared for the team-focused criticism. Jason's 8-of-11 finish was bad for the team, end of story. His wasn't the only result that was bad for the team - but that doesn't change things about his showing.

Oh I'm sure if Jason had landed a fully rotated quad and got it ratified, WTT would certainly be a 'real enough' competition for many of Jason's fans.

 

[Tavi...]

Oh I'm sure if Jason had landed a fully rotated quad and got it ratified, WTT would certainly be a 'real enough' competition for many of Jason's fans.

Why would you even make a comment like that? One of the things I like about Nathan is how respectful he is of others. Perhaps you could learn from him.

 

[TontoK]

I really don't understand why Hawayek and Baker are so underrated. I find them mesmerizing.

I agree. I'm not a dance expert - I just like their style and my connection to their skating... for the most part, not always. But this year's free, for sure.

But there must be something lacking that is beyond my understanding of the sport, because it's not just a one-time thing. They get low-balled internationally and domestically. It happens all the time. It's not like they get a bad caller or a rough panel every now and then. It's consistent.

 

[1111bm]

Why would you even make a comment like that? One of the things I like about Nathan is how respectful he is of others. Perhaps you could learn from him.

Care to explain what's so disrespectful about my comment?

 

[Tavi...]

Care to explain what's so disrespectful about my comment?

You used a statement from a post that in itself was critical of Jason to make fun of (1) Jason for still not having landed a quad; and (2) his fans as lacking in critical thinking abilities. Whether it was your intention or not, the tone came across to me, at least, as “I’m superior because I like the best skater in the world.”

 

[el henry]

Oh I'm sure if Jason had landed a fully rotated quad and got it ratified, WTT would certainly be a 'real enough' competition for many of Jason's fans.

Wutt?

Jason’s fans love this competition. For what it is, a fun semi-cheesefest with the chance to earn PBs and big bucks. And to see Jason is in his Uncle Sam suit again.

if Jason had landed a rotated quad, sure, it would count. It doesn‘t take away from the fact that the comp itself is a semi cheesefest and is only as serious as any one skater or country takes it.

but the respect and admiration that all the skaters have for each other is real. And I take that seriously.

 

[1111bm]

You used a statement from a post that in itself was critical of Jason to make fun of (1) Jason for still not having landed a quad; and (2) his fans as lacking in critical thinking abilities.

If you ask me, it is disrespectful to be attacking another poster’s character and telling them to censor their opinions, just because you personally deem them offensive.

Sure, I don’t like it either when someone points out a flaw in something that I said/wrote or when my favourite skater gets criticised. But I don’t usually reprimand the opposing poster and question their motives (I don’t think?), but rather argue it out by having a discussion related to the actual content of the post.

...the tone came across to me, at least, as “I’m superior because I like the best skater in the world.”

See and this is the problem. Nothing in my post even hinted at that. This is all based on your biased assumptions, based on your preconceived notions about me.

This may come as a surprise to you, but just because I’m critical of certain aspects of Jason’s skating and just because Nathan is my favourite skater, doesn’t mean that I think Jason ‚needs‘ a quad or that I’m ridiculing him for not having one (none of my posts on GS ever even implied such a lien of thinking).

I was just amused at human nature, when I saw a Jason fan downplaying the significance of WTT when Jason had a bad skate, when I'm pretty sure the opposite wouldn't be true if he had skated well or succeeded at landing a quad, so I decided to take a humorous dig at that, that’s all.

And btw, I don't like Nathan because I believe him to be the best skater in the world, I actually find that an offensive assumption, that I would care about such labels and titles, and take pride in it. I simply enjoy his skating style, it's as simple as that.

 

[Tavi...]

If you ask me, it is disrespectful to be attacking another poster’s character and telling them to censor their opinions, just because you personally deem them offensive.

Sure, I don’t like it either when someone points out a flaw in something that I said/wrote or when my favourite skater gets criticised. But I don’t usually reprimand the opposing poster and question their motives (I don’t think?), but rather argue it out by having a discussion related to the actual content of the post.


See and this is the problem. Nothing in my post even hinted at that. This is all based on your biased assumptions, based on your preconceived notions about me.

This may come as a surprise to you, but just because I’m critical of certain aspects of Jason’s skating and just because Nathan is my favourite skater, doesn’t mean that I think Jason ‚needs‘ a quad or that I’m ridiculing him for not having one (none of my posts on GS ever even implied such a lien of thinking).

I was just amused at human nature, when I saw a Jason fan downplaying the significance of WTT when Jason had a bad skate, when I'm pretty sure the opposite wouldn't be true if he had skated well or succeeded at landing a quad, so I decided to take a humorous dig at that, that’s all.

And btw, I don't like Nathan because I believe him to be the best skater in the world, I actually find that an offensive assumption, that I would care about such labels and titles, and take pride in it. I simply enjoy his skating style, it's as simple as that.

You know, I don’t think this is a productive conversation, so I won’t continue it other than to say that no one can say for certainty what their words do or don’t “even hint[ ] at.” I don’t need to have “biased assumptions” or “preconceived notions” about you to read your words in a way that make sense to me, regardless of how those words read to you. Cheers.

 

[el henry]

I was just amused at human nature, when I saw a Jason fan downplaying the significance of WTT when Jason had a bad skate, when I'm pretty sure the opposite wouldn't be true if he had skated well or succeeded at landing a quad, so I decided to take a humorous dig at that, that’s all.

Which Jason fan did you see downplay the significance? And why are you "pretty sure" they would have said something if he had a good FS? After all, he had his usual brilliant SP

Personally, I find it unproductive to talk about fans in the abstract. I do try (and I am not perfect, but I try) to engage the poster directly, rather than say "Nathan fans say that" or "Vincent fans would say otherwise".

Because what happens, is that I, as a Jason fan, wonder if a generic comment is directed to me. So I jump in. And maybe it's not, but I don't know

And as I have already said, it's a semi cheesefest. It was in 2015 when Jason was on a team that won gold, it was in 2017 when Jason was on a team that won bronze, and it is now. So at least for one Jason fan, you don't need to presume

 

[ice coverage]

Jason’s fans love ...

... Personally, I find it unproductive to talk about fans in the abstract. I do try (and I am not perfect, but I try) to engage the poster directly, rather than say "Nathan fans say that" or "Vincent fans would say otherwise". ...

I agree that Nathan fans are not a monolith, Vincent fans are not a monolith, etc.

Jason fans also are not a monolith -- and I will make a general (and friendly) observation that one fan of Skater X does not necessarily speak for all fans of Skater X.
I am not perfect either, but I try to remember to say, "Many of Skater X's fans love ..." or "Some of Skater X's fans love ...," even when I am among the fans of Skater X. It's possible that another fan of Skater X would feel differently from me about something related to Skater X, and vice versa.

(I happen to enjoy WTT, and as a Jason fan, I am glad that Jason does too.)

---

... Nastya and Sasha were great! Sasha's such a diva with the knee slide. I love it.

I'm late to the party, but I think Mishina/Galliamov's SP almost has become my favorite program (from all disciplines) of the season -- judging by my frequency-of-rewatching meter.

 

[1111bm]

By the same token, Jason fans are not a monolith -- and I will make a general (and friendly) observation that one fan of Skater X does not necessarily speak for all fans of Skater X.
I am not perfect either, but I try to remember to say, "Many of Skater X's fans love ..." or "Some of Skater X's fans love ...,"

Exactly, which is what I did, see below...

Oh I'm sure if Jason had landed a fully rotated quad and got it ratified, WTT would certainly be a 'real enough' competition for many of Jason's fans.

 

[el henry]

Exactly, which is what I did, see below...

But were you speaking about me or not?

I still don't have an answer to that one. I still have no idea who this mythical Jason fan is that would have changed their mind about WTT being a cheesefest if Jason had performed better in the FS. I guess some concepts are just mysteries....

I agree that Nathan fans are not a monolith, Vincent fans are not a monolith, etc.

Jason fans also are not a monolith -- and I will make a general (and friendly) observation that one fan of Skater X does not necessarily speak for all fans of Skater X.
I am not perfect either, but I try to remember to say, "Many of Skater X's fans love ..." or "Some of Skater X's fans love ...," even when I am among the fans of Skater X. It's possible that another fan of Skater X would feel differently from me about something related to Skater X, and vice versa.

(I happen to enjoy WTT, and as a Jason fan, I am glad that Jason does too.)

---

I'm late to the party, but I think Mishina/Galliamov's SP almost has become my favorite program (from all disciplines) of the season -- judging by my frequency-of-rewatching meter.

Yes, this Jason fan, and the fans I know, are big fans of WTT. Whatever we may think of its cheesefest-iness. So I will gladly rephrase to say that.

 

[ice coverage]

Exactly, which is what I did, see below...

Yes, don't worry, 1111bm. I know that you did.
I hope you also noticed that I had not quoted you in my previous post -- which was not referring to your post.

I had quoted only el henry's posts, because they prompted my comment.
And she and I now have completed our brief conversation.

---

His brother, Liam, did.

I miss Liam Firus.
A lovely skater, and a nice person too.

 

[Seven Sisters]

For what it is, a fun semi-cheesefest with the chance to earn PBs and big bucks.

I never cared for the WTT in the Before Times, both because of its cheesiness and because it seemed mean to inflict this obligation on skaters who were obviously banged up and exhausted after a long, grueling competitive season culminating in Worlds. But this year, when we are starved for competitive skating of any kind, I truly enjoyed it. Not only were there some excellent performances—I particularly enjoyed Sadovsky and Tuktamysheva’s wonderful skating in their SPs—but I also made some new discoveries, like the two lovely Italian ladies (one of which I’d never heard of before!) and the young French pair team. (And here we thought French pairs skating was dead in the water after the departure of James & Cipres!)

A big thank you to the skaters who participated, and my best wishes to the people of Osaka as they deal with the pandemic.

 

[1111bm]

I hope you also noticed that I had not quoted you in my previous post

Yes, I did in fact. I just quoted that part of your post as a sort of transtition to quoting my own post.