2023 Four Continents Men's Free Skate

[Janice4th]

out of interest, has anyone ever skated to Erl King?

I’m not good with pop music. Is this a current song, or are you talking about Die Erl Koenig poem?

 

[Diana Delafield]

This is very interesting, thank you for sharing.

So... if a skater wanted to include an open axel in the choreo sequence, that would be allowed since <2 revolutions? I would love to see delayed open axels make a comeback. There were some huge glorious ones in the 70's and 80's, always crowd pleasers.

A Robin Cousins specialty. At 6' tall, with his long legs, he could fly the width of the rink with one delayed open Axel.

 

[yesterday]

I’m not good with pop music. Is this a current song, or are you talking about Die Erl Koenig poem?

I think it's about this? So poem, but without vocals?

F. Schubert - Der Erlkönig (piano accompaniment, G minor)

Franz Schubert's music for J. W. von Goethe's ballad Der ErlkönigPiano accompaniment for medium high voice, G minorPiano: Oliver Manuel PeñaWer reitet so spä...

www.youtube.com

 

[Diana Delafield]

The is perfect for any conversation about Keegan!! Someone earlier said all the hiking Alaskan mountains set Keegs up to handle the altitude in this comp!

Also perfect for my husband, a hiker and rock climber. When he once made a mild protest about me still doing pairs lifts and throws "at my age", I pointed out that I'd never been winched off the ice in a basket stretcher slung from a helicopter, as happened to him once when he fell partway down a cliff and landed in a little tree on a ledge. [Found it! Thank you!]

 

[skatedreamer]

I think it's about this? So poem, but without vocals?

F. Schubert - Der Erlkönig (piano accompaniment, G minor)

Franz Schubert's music for J. W. von Goethe's ballad Der ErlkönigPiano accompaniment for medium high voice, G minorPiano: Oliver Manuel PeñaWer reitet so spä...

www.youtube.com

There’s actually a solo piano version (not just the piano accompaniment for the song) of it. I came across it earlier today on YT; will hunt it up again and post.

Hooray; found!

Evgeny Kissin Schubert Liszt Erlkonig

Evgeny Kissin plays Schubert Liszt -Erlkonig

youtu.be

I still remember hearing the Schubert song for the first time in a college music history class. It’s magnificent, evocative …and downright scary!

 

[MarkinBerkeley]

Exactly right….

Kao landed -3T, eu 3S and 2A as combos
Keegan landed -2T, 3T and 2T and forgot and missed a jump altogether

The combos seem to have made the difference between these two competitors.

I was hoping Keegan would do a 3A 2A 2A jump combination. It is an easy one for him as his axel is his best jump

Still, he had the performance of the night. Him and Aymoz have such under rated skating skills. Kao shouldn’t have been that close to Keegan in PCS score. But, Keegan was so happy with his silver medal.

Also, Keegan’s score of 275 puts him at third place in SB score heading into Seniors Worlds behind Shoma and Ilia out of the men selected to go to Worlds. He is a dark horse for a podium spot now

Jason Brown has a possibility of getting 275, so he's the other dark horse.

 

[Diana Delafield]

There’s actually a solo piano version (not just the piano accompaniment for the song) of it. I came across it earlier today on YT; will hunt it up again and post.

Hooray; found!

Evgeny Kissin Schubert Liszt Erlkonig

Evgeny Kissin plays Schubert Liszt -Erlkonig

youtu.be

I still remember hearing the Schubert song for the first time in a college music history class. It’s magnificent, evocative …and downright scary!

I hope not at that opening tempo for footwork! I guess they could stroke on every eight counts and rely on a
strong push to fly, or else they'd look as if they were trying to catch up or run away. An interesting piece for a physically strong skater, though.

 

[skatedreamer]

I hope not at that opening tempo for footwork! I guess they could stroke on every eight counts and rely on a
strong push to fly, or else they'd look as if they were trying to catch up or run away. An interesting piece for a physically strong skater, though.

The tempo is one of the reasons I can’t imagine it working for skating choreography. But again, that’s JMO.

 

[4everchan]

I think it's about this? So poem, but without vocals?

F. Schubert - Der Erlkönig (piano accompaniment, G minor)

Franz Schubert's music for J. W. von Goethe's ballad Der ErlkönigPiano accompaniment for medium high voice, G minorPiano: Oliver Manuel PeñaWer reitet so spä...

www.youtube.com

this is just the piano part... without voice... so singers can practice.

Here is a version. The piece has been arranged by Liszt (piano solo) and in all sorts of other versions that may be better for skating than the Lied.

Oh .. I see @skatedreamer replied but i think it's worth sharing the bass baritone version So I will keep my post

 

[4everchan]

The tempo is one of the reasons I can’t imagine it working for skating choreography. But again, that’s JMO.

in other versions (without piano, it's much slower... ) like in Hahn solo violin version... Also, the melodic line is not that fast... it's the repeated octaves that give that impression... It's not impossible to skate to this but I doubt choreos will bother

Hilary Hahn : Ernst - Der Erlkönig

youtu.be

 

[Ruthypegs]

I’m not good with pop music. Is this a current song, or are you talking about Die Erl Koenig poem?

Yes, that's right, Die Erl Koenig poem/Schubert piano and voice duet.

 

[Ruthypegs]

this is just the piano part... without voice... so singers can practice.

Here is a version. The piece has been arranged by Liszt (piano solo) and in all sorts of other versions that may be better for skating than the Lied.

Oh .. I see @skatedreamer replied but i think it's worth sharing the bass baritone version So I will keep my post

I'm really enjoying this discussion about the Erl Koenig. And that version is stunning - thanks for sharing, @4everchan

Next question - who could skate to this? Deniss?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I love me some Keegan as much as the next person, but I disagree that he deserved the win this time. I do agree that it was close, but over two programs, I call it for Miura.

Miura was ahead after the SP by 5 points. Miura's free skate in real time was underscored. I specifically saw the 4T-3T he did (wonderfully) and the tech box came up 3T-3T and wasn't adjusted upward until review during the Kiss & Cry. I don't think there was any "padding" going on. I also thought Miura's PCS was accurate relative to the scoring of Keegan and the other skaters. I thought the tech panel and judges called things fairly as they saw it in real time. A post-competition look at the protocols doesn't reveal anything outlandishly marked for either Kao or Keegan.

Your last two sentences are mind-boggling--in one fell swoop, you are explicitly stating that Keegan should have been given the win because he skated well and it's his final season, AND that the Japanese Fed is shady. I cannot agree with either of these points.

LOL. We don't agree. I will fully admit that my emotions and my sentimentality for all Keegan Messing has given to this sport, combined with his unique talent and how unexpectedly well he skated colors my view of the scoring. Keegan has had some physical challenges and some inconsistencies, so it was wonderful to see him skate such a seamless technical program with his great charm and passion. His presentation was far superior than Miura's.

There's no question that Miura has exceptional jumping ability, technical expertise, and wonderful instincts. He also displayed great desire to win, and he was rewarded. There's dramatic music playing in the background for Miura, which provides the emotional component for viewers. But Miura is not connecting with the music; he's not expressing the music; and he's not telling a story. He's expertly running through the elements, and sure, that's not easy to do.

So yes, it was was close and definitely on technical merit, Miura was rewarded. Jumps matter in this sport, and often, they trump everything else. Also, a factor is how well Miura performed on the GP this season. You can say that shouldn't be a factor, but it is. Reputation, consistency, talent, past results, having a strong federation. All of these things matter and factor into the judging, which we know is not a perfect science. It's often imperfect and sometimes unfair. The PCS scoring is particularly debatable. Also, judges are not robots. They are impacted by many factors, including subjectivity, but also perception, skater reputation, and affiliated fed politics. That doesn't mean judging corruption. Most judges try to be fair. But we can look at the scoring and often see wide variances in GOE, etc. There are numerous influencing factors involved in the judging that are just part of the sport.

Anyway, I'm not saying Miura winning is unreasonable. But it's messy when they go back to add and subtract, which often occurs. They can say it's in the interest of being fair and accurate. It's really about the judges controlling outcomes. With a subjective performance sport, scoring will always be debatable.

My emotions in thevheat of the moment are what they are, and I still feel the same way. I realize that Keegan is likely perfectly happy. He's such a great sportsman! And young gun Miura is establishing himself as a technical force to be reckoned with going forward. Whether or not Miura ever develops better aesthetics, remains to be seen. Maybe he will. He's young and he has time on his side.

Also, it's factual that Japan has huge political clout within the ISU, in large part due to their tremendous fan base. We are far beyond the days of of U.S. network television contracts having any sway. We are in a complicated new era. It's always helpful to have a strong federation on your side. Meanwhile, you can differ in how you feel and cite the numbers and do the tallying. It's fine that we don't see this outcome in the same way. I can see why Miura won, even if I disagree. Bottom line: Miura's presentation is NOT good. It's an area he needs to work on.

 

[4everchan]

Anyway, I'm not saying Miura winning is unreasonable. But it's messy when they go back to add and subtract, which often occurs. They can say it's in the interest of being fair and accurate. It's really about the judges controlling outcomes. With a subjective performance sport, scoring will always be debatable.

The big addition came from correcting a tech box error. Miura had been credited for a 3t-3t combo while he had done 4t-3t. That's what took some folks by surprise. I expected the TES score to rise. Regarding who should have won this, I am fine either way, There are good arguments for each skater to at least win the LP portion of the event.
PCS is very debatable indeed. I'd add to the factors influencing judges : reaction of the crowd, skating last and well after having won the SP, etc. Do I think Miura's PCS score is justified? Rationally yes. He skated with energy, focus, a desire to win, got the crowd excited... which all adds up when judging presentation. The program is well made.. His skating skills are there (not the best but very good). Emotionally, I don't remember much from his program, so I agree there is work to do with musicality and connection... but these two factors are probably lesser factors when considering figure skating as a sport first and wouldn't take away that much in terms of scoring, even with a harsh panel, at least, not enough for Keegan to win it I believe. I am a huge Messing fan, nobody skates like him. Nobody spins like him. He is very personable. But, I am not devastated with the results.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

See people, this is what you miss when you don't follow the JGP. Here is Younghyun Cha of Korea skating to Erlkönig:

Younghyun CHA (KOR) | Men Short Program | Courchevel 2022 | #JGPFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaF Visit https://isu.org/JuniorGrandPrix for more information on the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating.Cour...

youtu.be

 

[4everchan]

See people, this is what you miss when you don't follow the JGP. Here is Younghyun Cha of Korea skating to Erlkönig:

Younghyun CHA (KOR) | Men Short Program | Courchevel 2022 | #JGPFigure

To license ISU footage: https://bit.ly/3M7bcaF Visit https://isu.org/JuniorGrandPrix for more information on the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating.Cour...

youtu.be

LOL.. I am pretty sure, now that you shared it, that I have seen it before...I do follow JGP but my memory is selective
As I explained, if you remove the singer and the piano, the piece itself works well for figure skating... the strings repeat the notes... sounds like almost normal string accompaniment, and the woodwinds do the melody... which is not too fast for skating.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

LOL.. I am pretty sure, now that you shared it, that I have seen it before...I do follow JGP but my memory is selective
As I explained, if you remove the singer and the piano, the piece itself works well for figure skating... the strings repeat the notes... sounds like almost normal string accompaniment, and the woodwinds do the melody... which is not too fast for skating.

Lol, in fact I am sure you have seen it before because we discussed it at the time in the competition thread. It gave me flashbacks of having to learn and recite the poem when I was a kid in school. It is a beautifully moody poem though.

 

[4everchan]

Lol, in fact I am sure you have seen it before because we discussed it at the time in the competition thread. It gave me flashbacks of having to learn and recite the poem when I was a kid in school. It is a beautifully moody poem though.

HA !!!!! I guess for a pianist, the flashbacks are about the tour de force it is to play this... and would nix all memories of it in figure skating context LOL But yes indeed, I remember you saying you had to learn it at school !

The poem I remember learning and reciting in school was If by Kipling. Very powerful. It has only be set once to music... (in 2019 by Ron Beckett)... and I didn't find a recording of it...

 

[skatedreamer]

in other versions (without piano, it's much slower... ) like in Hahn solo violin version... Also, the melodic line is not that fast... it's the repeated octaves that give that impression... It's not impossible to skate to this but I doubt choreos will bother

Hilary Hahn : Ernst - Der Erlkönig

youtu.be

Golly, the solo violin version is wonderful!

 

[TontoK]

A Robin Cousins specialty. At 6' tall, with his long legs, he could fly the width of the rink with one delayed open Axel.

Lesser known American Charlie Tickner (1978 World Champion and bronze medalist to Cousins in Lake Placid) also had a humdinger of an open axel. Such a beautiful era of skating. I love the way those guys could make that axel just hang in the air.