2023 Grand Prix Espoo: Men's Thoughts?

[gsk8]

Kao Miura captures first Grand Prix gold in Espoo

2023 Grand Prix Espoo: Men Japan’s Kao Miura captured his first Grand Prix gold in Espoo, Finland, on Saturday afternoon. Teammate Shun Sato maintained second place for the silver, while […]

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So glad Aymoz was able to climb back up. Yesterday he was too upset to go to the mixed zone, understandably.

Great job Miura and Sato!!

What are your thoughts on this event?

 

[el henry]

Kao and Shun were quite the battle, but I have come to expect them to always bring it.

I love that Kévin was able to pull himself back up. The skate was slower than at SA, but still as fascinating as ever.

I also loved the quotes that GS did get after his FS

I came today with no goals, I was just here because I love figure skating and I wanted to fight... ..
I want to take every day as a gift, keep being healthy and dream big.

 

[Warwick360]

So glad for Kevin and his Bolero today. Glad he's able to carry himself upwards and onwards after setbacks these days. Glad Worlds has done wonders for his confidence.

 

[gsk8]

Now he can focus on Nationals and Europeans. I don't see him going to the Final though. Uno and Kagiyama will more than likely take two spots, pushing him down to sixth with 24 points. It will depend I think on how Britschgi and Egadze do at NHK. It will be close.

 

[4everchan]

Now he can focus on Nationals and Europeans. I don't see him going to the Final though. Uno and Kagiyama will more than likely take two spots, pushing him down to sixth with 24 points. It will depend I think on how Britschgi and Egadze do at NHK. It will be close.

For Kévin not to make the finals, it would require 3 skaters pushing him down.
Kévin is at 24, with a 2nd place finish and 529 points to consider for tie-breakers.

Four skaters can get 24 points (but not at the same time obviously) and work on the tie-breakers. The only scenario I can imagine that would exclude Kévin is the following :

Nika or Lukas 1st = 9+ 15 = 24 would win first tie-breaker
+ Yuma 2nd = 11+13 = 24 points with over 529 points in total to win second tie-breaker
+ Shoma 3rd = 13+11= 24 points with over 529 points in total to win second tie-breaker

Any other scenario won't work because only two skaters at most would gather enough points to dislodge Kévin.

Most likely, Shoma and Yuma will take the first two spots.

In either case, the third place finisher would only get 20 points maximum. So Kévin is safe apart from the odd scenario I have shown above.

10	Shoma UNO	JPN				13		X	13	2	279.98
11	Yuma KAGIYAMA	JPN			11			X	11	3	273.14
12	Lukas BRITSCHGI	SUI			9			X	9	4	263.43
13	Nika EGADZE	GEO	9					X	9	4	237.45

I think i did the maths properly but it's late so maybe someone else wants to confirm or infirm this.

 

[icewhite]

For Kévin not to make the finals, it would require 3 skaters pushing him down.
Kévin is at 24, with a 2nd place finish and 529 points to consider for tie-breakers.

Four skaters can get 24 points (but not at the same time obviously) and work on the tie-breakers. The only scenario I can imagine that would exclude Kévin is the following :

Nika or Lukas 1st = 9+ 15 = 24 would win first tie-breaker
+ Yuma 2nd = 11+13 = 24 points with over 529 points in total to win second tie-breaker
+ Shoma 3rd = 13+11= 24 points with over 529 points in total to win second tie-breaker

Any other scenario won't work because only two skaters at most would gather enough points to dislodge Kévin.

Most likely, Shoma and Yuma will take the first two spots.

In either case, the third place finisher would only get 20 points maximum. So Kévin is safe apart from the odd scenario I have shown above.

10	Shoma UNO	JPN				13		X	13	2	279.98
11	Yuma KAGIYAMA	JPN			11			X	11	3	273.14
12	Lukas BRITSCHGI	SUI			9			X	9	4	263.43
13	Nika EGADZE	GEO	9					X	9	4	237.45

I think i did the maths properly but it's late so maybe someone else wants to confirm or infirm this.

Yeah, I haven't done the math myself (and if I did you sure couldn't trust it) but this is pretty much what I read elsewhere as well.

 

[TontoK]

Is still don't fully understand Matteo's choreo sequence being invalidated. I think Kevin probably had enough of a cushion that it didn't matter in the final placements, but if Kevin had made the GP Final on the basis of that technical decision, it would have been very controversial.

I continue to be very frustrated at the men who slam the door when opportunity knocks.

 

[TT_Fin]

Is still don't fully understand Matteo's choreo sequence being invalidated. I think Kevin probably had enough of a cushion that it didn't matter in the final placements, but if Kevin had made the GP Final on the basis of that technical decision, it would have been very controversial.

I continue to be very frustrated at the men who slam the door when opportunity knocks.

If you have noticed some of my posts, my local commentator (Mika Saarelainen) is a high-level-judge and he knows very quickly what goes wrong. He could quite soon say "Oh, he did not have two moves". Rules are clear: skater can do almost anything inside the rules which differ from other compulsory elements: stsq, spins and jumps. But there must be clearly two different choreo moves. Matteo just forgot to put another move, he started step sequence. Those moves can be, just some examples: split jumps, spirals, Hydroblades, Ina Bauers or skater may even invent something own. Two different spirals is also enough, just change and women use it often. Judges think skaters benefit and they took some time to find something they could think to be the other move, but if they cannot do it, they must follow the rules. It was just a sloppy mistake to forget to do another move. Matteo and his coach for sure have checked and know about that mistake themselves. I think this was second time this season in men, when this has happened in competitions I have watched. Once it was marked invalid, but corrected later, so judges could find out something they could think as another move.

 

[Arriba627]

Most likely, Shoma and Yuma will take the first two spots.

In either case, the third place finisher would only get 20 points maximum. So Kévin is safe apart from the odd scenario I have shown above.

Thank goodness you deciphered all that. My head is spinning!

 

[Jumping_Bean]

If you have noticed some of my posts, my local commentator (Mika Saarelainen) is a high-level-judge and he knows very quickly what goes wrong. He could quite soon say "Oh, he did not have two moves". Rules are clear: skater can do almost anything inside the rules which differ from other compulsory elements: stsq, spins and jumps. But there must be clearly two different choreo moves. Matteo just forgot to put another move, he started step sequence. Those moves can be, just some examples: split jumps, spirals, Hydroblades, Ina Bauers or skater may even invent something own. Two different spirals is also enough, just change and women use it often. Judges think skaters benefit and they took some time to find something they could think to be the other move, but if they cannot do it, they must follow the rules. It was just a sloppy mistake to forget to do another move. Matteo and his coach for sure have checked and know about that mistake themselves. I think this was second time this season in men, when this has happened in competitions I have watched. Once it was marked invalid, but corrected later, so judges could find out something they could think as another move.

What is weird about Matteo's ChSq is that it was called at completely different points in the program at the two preceding competitions and this one. In Canada, it was called before the 3A+2A, in Shanghai before the second 3A, and here after.
On the planned program content, the ChSq is listed before the last 3A, but he indeed does it before the 3A+2A, like in Canada.

It's not the best or most recognisable ChSq, but there are two movements there.

 

[icewhite]

What is weird about Matteo's ChSq is that it was called at completely different points in the program at the two preceding competitions and this one. In Canada, it was called before the 3A+2A, in Shanghai before the second 3A, and here after.
On the planned program content, the ChSq is listed before the last 3A, but he indeed does it before the 3A+2A, like in Canada.

It's not the best or most recognisable ChSq, but there are two movements there.

I looked at the program again two times now and I can't see it.
Would have to look at his other free skates again I suppose to recognize it.

But... that helps to explain it. I thought the sequence does not only need two movements but they need to be distinct and held for two seconds? Usually it's easy to recognize it because you have some standard movements like a spiral, Ina Bauer, Hydroblade or Spread Eagle which everybody knows. Often the movements are not held for more than a second and messy, but it's enough to go "okay check" for the judges.
Seems like it's a mixture of a sequence of movements that is not very standard, the movements are not held, they are in a different place from where they were before and where they are on the planned content layout - honestly, as much as I like Matteo, it's not exactly the fault of the judges then.

But hopefully we will get better choreo sequences from a lot of skaters than what we are getting now.

 

[deedee1]

Congrats to all medalists! Shun could have won I thought.I feel sorry for Jimmy. Kevin can redeem himself by French Nationals for sure. His free suits him so well, very artistic and very Kevin's.

Anyway, Kao and Shun were quite good here, especially Shun! This season so far, every time I see him skate, he surprises me, he's improving HELL A LOT!
I hope both will work on their spins more. Need more GEOs when competitions get tight. Japanese Nationals will be very interesting.

 

[lariko]

I think Kevin probably had enough of a cushion that it didn't matter in the final placements, but if Kevin had made the GP Final on the basis of that technical decision, it would have been very controversial.

Kevin only got into final because Sato and also every direct competitor for was downscored by one judge (versus 8 others) in this event (French one, surprise, surprise.)

Here is the simple math of how she did it:

Judge No.3

Ms. Florence VUYLSTEKER

FRA

In short program:

Miura: 6.75, 6.50 and 8.0 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 9.0).
Sato: 7.0, 6.75 and 8.25 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.75).
Shimada: 5.25, 5.0, 6.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.0 to 8.50).
Rizzo: 6.75, 6.75, 7.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 8.75).

Aymoz: 8.75, 8.75 and 8.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.0 to 9.0).

In the free skate:

Miura: 6.75, 6.75 and 8.75 (every non-French judge gave 7.75 to 9.25).
Sato: 6.50, 6.50 and 8.50 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.75).
Shimada: 7.50, 6.75, 8.0 (every non-French judge gave 7.50 to 8.25).
Rizzo: 7.50, 7.0, 7.25 (every non-French judge gave 8.25 to 8.75). --> which is actually weird given the fatal flaw in Co that led to ChSq annulled; his Co should have been lower than others' in this leading group.

Aymoz: 9.50, 9.50 and 9.50 (every non-French judge gave 8.50 to 9.50).

Sato, coming in first would have won the tie with Aymoz. Sato scoring more than 279 (Aymoz in Canada) would have won the tie. So, back-calculating from that and strategic scoring is how Aymoz got into the final, not for some mysterious hand of God or that he magically rallied and produced something so special that the world stood still. He just had a judge who did the min-maxing for him.

 

[TT_Fin]

I looked at the program again two times now and I can't see it.
Would have to look at his other free skates again I suppose to recognize it.

But... that helps to explain it. I thought the sequence does not only need two movements but they need to be distinct and held for two seconds? Usually it's easy to recognize it because you have some standard movements like a spiral, Ina Bauer, Hydroblade or Spread Eagle which everybody knows. Often the movements are not held for more than a second and messy, but it's enough to go "okay check" for the judges.
Seems like it's a mixture of a sequence of movements that is not very standard, the movements are not held, they are in a different place from where they were before and where they are on the planned content layout - honestly, as much as I like Matteo, it's not exactly the fault of the judges then.

But hopefully we will get better choreo sequences from a lot of skaters than what we are getting now.

I think if that rule has changed. I remember our commentators has said it before, but not this season and I did not find it from rules either, but it maybe my language skills or just being sloppy. But if for example split jump is one of accepted movements, it is difficult to hold for two seconds. And it is at least two movements, I have understand if there is time, more than two is accepted.

 

[CrazyKittenLady]

I think if that rule has changed. I remember our commentators has said it before, but not this season and I did not find it from rules either, but it maybe my language skills or just being sloppy. But if for example split jump is one of accepted movements, it is difficult to hold for two seconds. And it is at least two movements, I have understand if there is time, more than two is accepted.

Iirc, the choreo sequence also has to cover a certain amount of ice.

ETA: Seems I didn't remember correctly. From the rules:

A Choreographic Sequence consists of at least two different movements like spirals, arabesques, spread eagles, Ina Bauers, hydroblading, any jumps with maximum of two revolutions, spins, etc. Steps and turns may be used to link the two or more different movements together. Listed elements included in the Choreographic Sequence will not be called and will not occupy a box. The pattern is not restricted, but the sequence must be clearly visible. The Technical Panel identifies the Choreographic Sequence which commences with the first skating movement and is concluded with the preparation to the next element (if the Choreographic Sequence is not the last element of the program). It can be performed before or after the Step Sequence. This element has a fixed base value and will be evaluated by the judges in GOE only.

 

[TontoK]

Post

That's interesting. And on the surface, it's suspicious.

For the record, I have no problem with a judge scoring on the low or high end, so long as that judge is consistent. That doesn't appear to be the case here.

Out of curiosity, and I ask because you've clearly done some analysis, is there anything in the GOE that is also suspicious? I recall a recent case in which a judge marked a much lower GOE on nearly every element than his peers... but he marked everyone the same way, so again, no problem with that.

 

[eppen]

Kevin only got into final because Sato and also every direct competitor for was downscored by one judge (versus 8 others) in this event (French one, surprise, surprise.)

You do know that the PCS in each category is calculated as an average of what remains when the highest and the lowest scores are chucked out? The blatant over and down scores get eliminated by that rule. One or two judges pulling for their own skater or trying to downscore the main rival are not enough to influence the whole score enough. Majority vote counts.

The low scores of the French judge did not count in the final tally for Composition and Presentation, but her good Skating skills score for Sato actually added to his score in that category. For Miura, that score could have been one of the lowest scores that got chucked out, but there was also another judge who gave Miura only an 8.00.

(And btw, the judge from Kazakhstan gave Adam Siao Him Fa's short in CoC 6,75-7,75-8,00 when all the other judges remained at 8,25 or above. That score was just ridiculous, but in the end it did not have any effect on the final score because it got chucked out.)

 

[lariko]

You do know that the PCS in each category is calculated as an average of what remains when the highest and the lowest scores are chucked out? The blatant over and down scores get eliminated by that rule.

I want to see that it was chucked out. It is still in the protocol and not noted as invalid--which they should do btw, so it is obvious what goes into calculation.

 

[lariko]

That's interesting. And on the surface, it's suspicious.

For the record, I have no problem with a judge scoring on the low or high end, so long as that judge is consistent. That doesn't appear to be the case here.

Out of curiosity, and I ask because you've clearly done some analysis, is there anything in the GOE that is also suspicious? I recall a recent case in which a judge marked a much lower GOE on nearly every element than his peers... but he marked everyone the same way, so again, no problem with that.

The best source for this is the Skating Scores National Bias Charts and the charts for each skater in the event. You will see what GoE which judge gave each element there and which place they had the skater in overall for tech and for PCS.

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

Sato's elements scored (French judge has him in 3rd in TES, 7th in Co, 8th in PR.

Skating Scores: Latest Figure Skating Results, Scores, Rankings & Statistics

The best resource for Figure Skating scores and stats on the web.

skatingscores.com

And, of course, good old Klyushnikov was there rooting for Aymoz, heh.

 

[eppen]

I want to see that it was chucked out. It is still in the protocol and not noted as invalid--which they should do btw, so it is obvious what goes into calculation.

I am a little surprised that you don't seem to know how this works... If the rule is that the highest and the lowest scores are left out and the rest is added up and divided by 7 = averaged, then you don't have to mark any of the scores as invalid or chucked out. Have you ever seen this happen in the pcs part of the protocol?

The score for Miura for Composition in the free is 8.14.

The raw values are (in order from lowest to highest): 6.50-7.75-8.00-8.00-8.25-8.25-8.25-8.50-8.75
If you add all of them together and divide by 9 = 64,25/9 = 7,14. (And that is one point lower than what he got, right?)

If you chuck out the lowest and the highest score and add up the 7 remaining scores 7.75-8.00-8.00-8.25-8.25-8.25-8.50 = 57 which you divide by 7 = and the end results is 8.14.

The total PCS score you get by adding up the 3 scores for each category and multiplying that with the factor 3.33 which you can see to the left of the scores: (8.14+8.04+8,54) x 3.33 = 82.32.

This also applies when the lowest or the highest raw score appears more than one, eg 8.25-8.25-8.50-8.75-8.75-9.00-9.25-9.25 ends up being: 8.25-8.50-8.75-8.75-9.00-9.25

So, the majority votes count and outliers are excluded, simple as that. The beauty of the IJS is that there are SOOOO many numbers that it is pretty difficult to for one or even two judges to manipulate them, you need 4 or 5 to make a difference.