2024 Worlds: Women's thoughts and comments

[Warwick360]

Isabeau skated clean. Just to clarify.

Of course. But the last group still was not clean. Was not saying she wasn't.

 

[TallyT]

They voluntarily chose not to compete.

The reason someone isn't there has no bearing on the question. And what about the others I mentioned?

I'm talking about unofficial rankings.

That's moving the goalposts, because Worlds is not unofficial. This thread is about Worlds. And Kaori won Worlds.

In all other sports people make these types of comparisons across leagues and competitions, but seems very controversial in figure skating.

Umm no, people do it all the time, the archives right here are stuffed with pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of them. You and I and everyone for the next 50 years and more are entitled to unofficially caveat all we like but neither you or I control the narrative, nor do we know who will, I tend to doubt it will in the end be the ISU and feds, or the judges. But they will control who gets the medals if not the public's love.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

This is true. Jumps are hardly "presented" at all these days. In the past (say the 1980s and 1990s) men would go all out to "present" and showcase their triple Axel. This produced a choreographic exclamation mark and and program highlight. This is missing from current programs, which tend to be of uniform intensity throughout with no big high points to cheer.

Although, a program like Alina Zagitova's Don Quiote was quite successful, IMHO, at substituting a whirlwind flurry of jumps at the end for a couple of well-presented individual jumps. There are more than one way to skin a cat.

Triple axel is really not something unique and important to be presented these days, certainly not in mens category (but Amber ). Also, you dont need to present your triple/triple and a textbook 3Lz, it is not a highlight no matter how you presenting it, when majority in the competition can do it I would say that Malinin presented quite well his 4A and Shcherbakova quite well presented her 4F in the past. And what makes a difference in the presentation of a triple jump today is exactly a transition in and out of it, as Zagitova's Charlotte spiral into the jump for example, or without a pause jumping sequences put in the second half in Don Quiote - that would be even a more brilliant choice in today's world of figure skating... But i guess its ISU fault for writing that programme in the history books, because with the current rules i doubt any skater would try to do the same in the future, or something any kind of a different for that matter... Thank God for Ilia's 4A and Adam's backflip...

 

[Anna K.]

All right, I'll wait until you are done with your off-topic. I can post about Women event at Worlds later. Or in a different thread.

 

[SmileHappy34]

I am going to state this in women but applies to all disciplines.

Oh what a night . O what a competition cheers and congratulations to all.

Thank you
So much to be thankful and grateful and write about.

Kaori great skate to become a three peat champ. It show her mental toughness.
Isabeau silver medal skate lovely and embracing.that showed her beauty and mental toughness.
Chaeyong great skate for bronze. It showed her mental toughness.
Haein lovely short despite hiccups in free .
Leona wonderful short . She still a contender for medals regardless of free skate issues.

Kimmy Respond wonderful free.
Her and Livia almost got three spots Mone comeback in the free despite her short program issues.

Young lovely skate that please alot people.

Hana beauty on ice.

Amber skates shows why people believe and want so much for her. If she put it together she can medal. She has the goods . Amber needs to skate in competition knowing she can.


Thank you to all staff volunteer skaters and judges and tech callers.

 

[TallyT]

All right, I'll wait until you are done with your off-topic. I can post about Women event at Worlds later. Or in a different thread.

Apologies, I didn't shut up, did I? I definitely will now.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Why are you continuing to repeat semantics. The majority of the time in recent years she has been turning out of her combo instead of holding the landing, including in the SP at these Worlds. It's something most people are doing these days on their jumps and the judges don't judge it correctly, as usual. Yet another example of how the scoring system and judges are failing. So we are stuck with a sport where people are no longer trying to achieve an objective high level of quality and artistry, but instead just whatever meets the superficial and misguided rubric. And it shows in the performances. Everything looks disjointed and predictable, there isn't freedom and purpose and inspiration on the ice anymore.

Is it semantics or is it just questioning the validity of your argument, where you chose to assign blame and especially what examples you chose to use?

Kaori has not been turning out of her combo the majority of the time in recent years. She has used a "proper" turn transition out of her 3F+3T in only three programs to date (as far as I can tell) - This season's SP, last season's SP, and the Olympic season's FS. Half is not the majority, and half is a clear indication that this is not a necessity due to "lack of stability" or "quality issue" or "skill issue" but a conscious choreographic choice. Also holding =/= holding, holding a landing can be 2 seconds or 5 seconds, can be with a low free leg (Sakamoto, Kagiyama) or a high free leg, can be out of a flawless jump or a severely off-axis jump (Valieva, Schild).

Transitions like twizzles straight out of a landing can also be just (or even more) indicative of a good landing as a held landing, as they require a lot of control and specific weight distribution.

I also just took it upon myself to look at the top 5 in this competition, and only two of them use a turn-like transition out of their 3-3: Kaori in the Short and Chaeyeon in the Free. (Doesn't mean the others hold their landing edge for very long, it just means that they don't do a turn transition.)

 

[Baron Vladimir]

The competition is not about who is the best, but who is the most ready to win it. Does Kaori Sakamoto or Ana Shcherbakova are the best skaters at their point of time, it is not really matter- they are the deserving World champions. As I can be a worlds 100m hurdles record holder, without winning any WC tittle in my life...

 

[Mathman]

All right, I'll wait until you are done with your off-topic. I can post about Women event at Worlds later. Or in a different thread.

Wait, wait! You mean youare not interested in discussing how Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen might have placed if they had competed here?

 

[Skating91]

The reason someone isn't there has no bearing on the question. And what about the others I mentioned?

Of course it has a bearing. If they chose to not compete it's because they are not longer good enough, maybe no longer motivated. Therefore cannot be considered the best.

Whereas if someone is excluded for reasons not related to athletic performance and circumstances 100% outside of their control, and they are performing at a very high level in other competitions running side by side, then it makes sense to take those performances into consideration.

That's moving the goalposts, because Worlds is not unofficial. This thread is about Worlds. And Kaori won Worlds.

Worlds is a name attached to it. It's an ISU competition first and foremost. It is not the definitive competition that decides the best skater. In men's and ice dance the ISU champion could be considered best in the world or number one ranked in the world, but not in pairs or women's. There are even domestic sports that attach the call the winners world champions I wouldn't get too hung up on the moniker Worlds

Umm no, people do it all the time, the archives right here are stuffed with pages and pages and pages and pages and pages of them. You and I and everyone for the next 50 years and more are entitled to unofficially caveat all we like but neither you or I control the narrative, nor do we know who will, I tend to doubt it will in the end be the ISU and feds, or the judges. But they will control who gets the medals if not the public's love.

For the next 50 years if I live that long I will be lurking ready to set the story straight. I will say yes Kaori is the greatest and winningest of all time at ISU level, certainly better and accomplished more than those skaters from the 50's and 60's, always produced when the pressure was at its highest, but at the same time could never rank her #1 in the world at any point she competed. At the same time I will say that some of the best skaters of their generation missed out on an opportunity to challenge for an ISU championship due to forces completely outside of their control.

Kaori got a double helping in what would have been her most difficult rivals no longer in the picture for reasons out of their control, and then the new age rule helps as well. It would have been different if it was Shin vs Kaori it would have been much more difficult than Levito, Kim or Loena. Still Kaori would have got it done she finds a way. And she will find a way next year as well further cementing her ISU GOAT status. Plus, Loena and Levito got that double helping as well but couldn't capitalise.

 

[yelyoh]

This is true. Jumps are hardly "presented" at all these days. In the past (say the 1980s and 1990s) men would go all out to "present" and showcase their triple Axel. This produced a choreographic exclamation mark and and program highlight. This is missing from current programs, which tend to be of uniform intensity throughout with no big high points to cheer.

Although, a program like Alina Zagitova's Don Quiote was quite successful, IMHO, at substituting a whirlwind flurry of jumps at the end for a couple of well-presented individual jumps. There are more than one way to skin a cat.

PLEASE DO NOT USE THAT EXPRESSION!!

 

[Arigato]

This was a nice thread until someone brought up the Russians.

Kaori is great. She's my favourite female figure skater ever.

You can keep your Russians.

Kaori is my favorite, too, but I do miss watching a certain female russian skater go for 234 quads and falling all over the ice like a drunken sailor just to capture the BV. What elegance!

 

[Ziotic]

Kaori is my favorite, too, but I do miss watching a certain female russian skater go for 234 quads and falling all over the ice like a drunken sailor just to capture the BV. What elegance!

I was just thinking about her today. Did she ever successfully land a 3A in competition?

 

[Arigato]

I was just thinking about her today. Did she ever successfully land a 3A in competition?

I have no idea.

 

[Anna K.]

Wait, wait! You mean youare not interested in discussing how Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen might have placed if they had competed here?

No, I'm not.

Apologies, I didn't shut up, did I? I definitely will now.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for showing respect to the topic and not discussing Russians and skinned cats.
It means a lot to me.

 

[Diana Delafield]

I will say yes Kaori is the greatest and winningest of all time at ISU level, certainly better and accomplished more than those skaters from the 50's and 60's,

The skaters of that era were just as athletically talented as those of today. Knowledge of how to teach and perform today's more difficult moves has grown, but mainly it was the equipment they used at that time that prevented bigger jumps and many of the other moves. I saw a photo online recently (and of course can't find it now to add to this) of a champion of the 1950s -- Carol Heiss? Tenley Albright? -- posing on a bench next to her skates. The blades and foot part are upright, but the thin, limp boots from the ankles up are flopped over to the side as if they're just knitted high-top slippers. No stiffness at all, nothing anywhere near the construction of the boots and blades of today. Take a pair of skates from today back in time and those athletes could do the same programs we see now.

 

[Mathman]

PLEASE DO NOT USE THAT EXPRESSION!!

Is Lulu still with us?

 

[Mathman]

At the same time I will say that some of the best skaters of their generation missed out on an opportunity to challenge for an ISU championship due to forces completely outside of their control.

True, but this is not a thread about world events and circumstances beyond skaters' control. It is not about ISU competitions versus non-ISU competitions. It is not about whether Carol Heiss, who won five world championships and 2 O;ympic medals in the 1950s-60s could beat the skaters of today. It is not about propaganda wars between great powers nor about who can play the victim card with the greatest pathos.

Interesting topics one and all, but this thread is for fans who want to discuss the performances that we saw this weekend at this particular event.

That said, go Chae-yeon Kim!

 

[TwinnerA]

There were so many great skates at this event. I still say that the Free Program from Isabeau was my personal favorite. She was devastated after losing her title. The look of sheer joy gave me happy tears.

I was holding my breath as she landed each jump!

 

[Anna K.]

That said, go CHae-yeon Kim!

Oh, and go Tzu-Han Ting!
I noticed her during 4CC and was really pleased that she qualified for Worlds - and for the Free skate at Worlds