Brennan: Why U.S. figure skating has fallen

[theoreticalgirl]

I am not sure what you are proposing here. Gay men are men, Lesbian women are women, bi-sexual people are either men or women without ambiguity. "

There plenty of people—myself included—who do not ascribe to binaristic notions of gender; some of us prefer to view gender as a spectrum. I don't want to dismiss Johnny Weir's important contributions to the conversation around gender and sport (and let's not forget that the current Men's National champion is someone who is out, etc etc), but being an out gay man in figure skating is not the same as being an out lesbian woman, nor is it the same as a trans man or woman's experience. Nor does it do much for the people who are intersex or agender.

We have yet to see these narratives in figure skating, even though they are prevalent in every other aspect of society and culture. An outdated notion of gender identity and expression doesn't particularly endear people to a sport, on top of all the other things mentioned in this thread.

 

[ice coverage]

There plenty of people—myself included—who do not ascribe to binaristic notions of gender; some of us prefer to view gender as a spectrum.

... a trans man or woman's experience. Nor does it do much for the people who are intersex or agender.

We have yet to see these narratives in figure skating, even though they are prevalent in every other aspect of society and culture. An outdated notion of gender identity and expression doesn't particularly endear people to a sport, on top of all the other things mentioned in this thread.

Are trans narratives prevalent in other sports? Which ones? Gymnastics?? Diving?? Which ones???

 

[mrrice]

I am not sure what you are proposing here. Gay men are men, Lesbian women are women, bi-sexual people are either men or women without ambiguity. Tennis has a men's division and a women's division. Basketball has a men's league and women's league. Golf …

Men's figure skating long had a stigma of being *snicker snicker* a sissy sport. People used to say, you're a figure skater, what? are you gay? Nowadays skaters simply answer yes, or no, or none of your business, then get back to work on their quad Sal. No one thinks anything of it when they see Johnny Weir as a television personality and major spokesperson for the sport. Well, OK, they might say "stupid hair." (Or am I thinking of U.S. Presidential candidate Donald Trump. )

Not that homophobia has been banished from society. But if one person says, I don't like this sissy sport, there is another who says, "Well, I do."

This entire statement is completely true!! Times have changed and I think it's USFS that needs to catch up. Boys don't get laughed at for being good dancers or singers like they used to in my day. I must say however, that as Gay as I am...I wouldn't be caught dead in some of those "Getup's" that Johnny wears. I don't know if skating would still be entertaining for some people if they didn't get to listen to Johnny and Tara. I Imagine some people tune in just to see what Johnny's wearing. This is why I'd love to see a council or something like it, get together to create a solid plan for the future of figure skating.

The more organized we are, the better we'll look to advertisers. We all know that in the end, it all comes down to money.

 

[FlattFan]

There are so many well educated USFS Alumni that I know if they put their heads together, they could come up with something great. I still have so much hope after seeing the great skating from our new medalists.

The hope is there for the medalists. The judging and the backbone behind the judging is still as messy as ever. Maybe even more.

 

[mrrice]

The hope is there for the medalists. The judging and the backbone behind the judging is still as messy as ever. Maybe even more.

TRUE!!!!!! 100% True. Great Comment.

 

[Poodlepal]

I think there are two separate issues.

1. Why hasn't Evan or Sasha--our last two singles medallists--been replaced adequately? Either the cost went up so dramatically that middle class people like Todd or Michelle can no longer do it and there are less people skating--doesn't seem to be true, though. Or, when the sport changed from the new judging system, the US kids weren't prepared. Or, it was so political under 6.0 that Americans were always in the medal hunt because they were Americans, and now it's fair. I doubt that, though. Or, it's so unfair that with anonymous judging, they've found a way to stick it to the Americans by looking more closely at their feet. Or, it's just a dry spell for whatever reason, that will end eventually when Gracie and Ashley are replaced by someone with steady nerves (I'll include themselves if they can somehow steady themselves).

As for figure skating seeming gay--when the most masculine skater around is constantly criticized for being too masculine and is made/told/encouraged to wear a tutu-like projection on his shirt in his long program, you will chase away many straight boys who may be interested in the sport. If Elvis Stojko and Michael Weiss types of skaters are frowned upon today, and the standard is the rather androgynous Hanyu, it will be almost all gay boys pursuing this sport in America, which means that you may lose a lot of potentially great skaters.

As for transgender athletes--I hope I can log on the day a transgender woman wins by doing a quad and her competitors realize she has the muscles and center of gravity of a man. That will be an interesting day on Golden Skate Forum.

 

[moriel]

I am not sure what you are proposing here. Gay men are men, Lesbian women are women, bi-sexual people are either men or women without ambiguity. Tennis has a men's division and a women's division. Basketball has a men's league and women's league. Golf …

Men's figure skating long had a stigma of being *snicker snicker* a sissy sport. People used to say, you're a figure skater, what? are you gay? Nowadays skaters simply answer yes, or no, or none of your business, then get back to work on their quad Sal. No one thinks anything of it when they see Johnny Weir as a television personality and major spokesperson for the sport. Well, OK, they might say "stupid hair." (Or am I thinking of U.S. Presidential candidate Donald Trump. )

Not that homophobia has been banished from society. But if one person says, I don't like this sissy sport, there is another who says, "Well, I do."

Also the technical content is pretty high and impressive nowadays, so that kinda helps. It is hard to see a guy jumping a quad, or ladies doing some impressive triples and say FS is a sissy sport, it's just for girls, princessy stuff etc etc etc.

 

[louisa05]

There plenty of people—myself included—who do not ascribe to binaristic notions of gender; some of us prefer to view gender as a spectrum. I don't want to dismiss Johnny Weir's important contributions to the conversation around gender and sport (and let's not forget that the current Men's National champion is someone who is out, etc etc), but being an out gay man in figure skating is not the same as being an out lesbian woman, nor is it the same as a trans man or woman's experience. Nor does it do much for the people who are intersex or agender.

We have yet to see these narratives in figure skating, even though they are prevalent in every other aspect of society and culture. An outdated notion of gender identity and expression doesn't particularly endear people to a sport, on top of all the other things mentioned in this thread.

Here in the Midwest, there are almost no people who do not ascribe to binary notions of gender. I would guess that the vast majority of Americans do not ascribe to your notions about the topic. Sadly, here in my corner of the world, I know people who are uncomfortable with skating because there are openly gay male competitors/former competitors. (I think they are very narrow minded and say so...but that does not mean they don't exist).

And no matter your feelings about it, biological sex does still have a large determinant factor on the ability to perform certain skills in skating. It is well known at this point that very narrow hips are an asset to jumping, particularly when it comes to quads. People who are biologically female typically do not have narrow hips; often quite the opposite after puberty. This is where the current division of competitors based on sex becomes significant in terms of maintaining fairness.

 

[heyang]

I think there are two separate issues.

1. Why hasn't Evan or Sasha--our last two singles medallists--been replaced adequately? Either the cost went up so dramatically that middle class people like Todd or Michelle can no longer do it and there are less people skating--doesn't seem to be true, though. Or, when the sport changed from the new judging system, the US kids weren't prepared. Or, it was so political under 6.0 that Americans were always in the medal hunt because they were Americans, and now it's fair. I doubt that, though. Or, it's so unfair that with anonymous judging, they've found a way to stick it to the Americans by looking more closely at their feet. Or, it's just a dry spell for whatever reason, that will end eventually when Gracie and Ashley are replaced by someone with steady nerves (I'll include themselves if they can somehow steady themselves).

Based upon my personal observation, the US has skaters who are capable being on the podium at Worlds if they 'compete'. Evan and Michele had great work ethics and knew how to compete. From early in their senior careers, they had seeming nerves of steel.

Part of it is media relate IMHO - many skater attract an agent as soon as they seem promising and then have the added pressure to 'win' or be a 'failure'. It took several years for Ashley to blend competitiveness and performance quality. Gracie has the technical abilities, but is just learning how to compete IMHO. Mirai (although hampered by injuries during some seasons) has also had a hard time with competition - you would just see her deflate after a mistake - she's definitely improved in this aspect, but she no longer brings youthful energy to her performances and needs to find something to sparkle in her performance. Alyssa C was another skater that didn't know how to 'compete'. Rohene Ward is probably one of the best male skaters ever, but he didn't have the head for competing.

 

[mrrice]

Here in the Midwest, there are almost no people who do not ascribe to binary notions of gender. I would guess that the vast majority of Americans do not ascribe to your notions about the topic. Sadly, here in my corner of the world, I know people who are uncomfortable with skating because there are openly gay male competitors/former competitors. (I think they are very narrow minded and say so...but that does not mean they don't exist).

And no matter your feelings about it, biological sex does still have a large determinant factor on the ability to perform certain skills in skating. It is well known at this point that very narrow hips are an asset to jumping, particularly when it comes to quads. People who are biologically female typically do not have narrow hips; often quite the opposite after puberty. This is where the current division of competitors based on sex becomes significant in terms of maintaining fairness.

This is a very interesting statement and one that I can say, having first hand knowledge is true. When I was touring we performed in a town called Bozeman, in Montana. It seemed to be filled with Cowboys and Farmers and appeared to have very little interest in a Variety Show. We usually performed on the local news of whichever town we entered and we did the same in Bozeman. The news director suggested we do our "Salute to Military" Medley so we did. Our show sold out and we received a huge standing ovation at the end of show. There are ways to make things happen and you have to be smart about how you approach certain situations.

I still believe there is an audience for figure skating and it's in our best interest to do something about it ASAP. Maybe the USFSA should send out a questionnaire and see what kind of feedback they receive. I know they'd the get a ton of ideas from me.

 

[Bonnie F]

I think there are two separate issues.

1. Why hasn't Evan or Sasha--our last two singles medallists--been replaced adequately? Either the cost went up so dramatically that middle class people like Todd or Michelle can no longer do it and there are less people skating--doesn't seem to be true, though. Or, when the sport changed from the new judging system, the US kids weren't prepared. Or, it was so political under 6.0 that Americans were always in the medal hunt because they were Americans, and now it's fair. I doubt that, though. Or, it's so unfair that with anonymous judging, they've found a way to stick it to the Americans by looking more closely at their feet. Or, it's just a dry spell for whatever reason, that will end eventually when Gracie and Ashley are replaced by someone with steady nerves (I'll include themselves if they can somehow steady themselves).

As for figure skating seeming gay--when the most masculine skater around is constantly criticized for being too masculine and is made/told/encouraged to wear a tutu-like projection on his shirt in his long program, you will chase away many straight boys who may be interested in the sport. If Elvis Stojko and Michael Weiss types of skaters are frowned upon today, and the standard is the rather androgynous Hanyu, it will be almost all gay boys pursuing this sport in America, which means that you may lose a lot of potentially great skaters.

As for transgender athletes--I hope I can log on the day a transgender woman wins by doing a quad and her competitors realize she has the muscles and center of gravity of a man. That will be an interesting day on Golden Skate Forum.

I agree with you, I think you've accurately targeted some of the most glaring issues for US figure skating to address.

 

[Dots]

Apologies if this has already been brought up, but one thing I think a lot about in regards to skating's decline in popularity is how gender plays out in the sport. We're living in an age where LGBTQ identity and rights are changing rapidly, but skating reduces gender to "Men's" and "Ladies" categories. I can't help but think that these outdated ideas of gender identities prevents audiences and athletes—on top of all the other issues mentioned in this thread—from further engaging with the sport.

Related, I wonder if the IOC's announcement regarding transgender athletes will cause the ISU, USFSA, et al to rethink matters?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...tes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery

Gender identities? I don't follow.

I mean as a gay man, I know LGB would be matters about sexual orientation. But matters about gender identity is something completely different and not related to sexual orientation. A gay man or gay woman will compete in their designated gender divisions. I don't see why they would want their genders redefined...

This reminds me of the time I was told that as a gay man asexuals were "my people," I was like: "what?"

 

[mrrice]

Gender issues aside, I would guess that the biggest reason the US has a recruiting problem is expense. If I want to play Basketball, Football, Tennis, or Soccer, I can walk a block to the local High School and play for free while I'm learning the sport. Unfortunately, that's not possible with figure skating or hockey. I wonder how many scholarships the US gives out to skaters. If someone has this information, I'd love to hear about it.

 

[Mathman]

Whenever this topic comes up there are always a lot of posts to the effect that the USFSA is lazy, oblivious, or incompetent in marketing matters. I think that's a bum rap. They have tried every trick in the book, from hiring full-time marketing people away from other organizations, partnering with Major League baseball, electing a President a few terms ago with a business background, creating Ice Network (hold the rotten tomatoes -- I said they are trying), sponsoring developmental programs, giving scholarships and providing funding, beating the bushes for the next Michelle Kwan, and basically all the things that we are thinking of.

Maybe it will all pay off some day, maybe not. In the meantime we can keep eating our Smucker's jam and buying Prudential insurance and hope for the best. :yes:

 

[mrrice]

Whenever this topic comes up there are always a lot of posts to the effect that the USFSA is lazy, oblivious, or incompetent in marketing matters. I think that's a bum rap. They have tried every trick in the book, from hiring full-time marketing people away from other organizations, partnering with Major League baseball, electing a President a few terms ago with a business background, creating Ice Network (hold the rotten tomatoes -- I said they are trying), sponsoring developmental programs, giving scholarships and providing funding, beating the bushes for the next Michelle Kwan, and basically all the things that we are thinking of.

Maybe it will all pay off some day, maybe not. In the meantime we can keep eating our Smucker's jam and buying Prudential insurance and hope for the best. :yes:

This is very good information for someone like me to hear. I have always believed that most people in and around skating were intelligent people who were used to working hard to achieve their goals. I'd love to be a fly on the wall for a council meeting on what figure skating needs to become more marketable and eventually, more profitable. I'm sure that people like Michelle Kwan and Dorothy Hamill have ideas on this subject and it would be great to hear what they have to say.

 

[padme21]

I personally believe that accessibility is the key to bring back the figure skating audiences. We live in a day and age where social media is everywhere people can watch tv shows on Amazon, Hulu, and Netflix. I follow the GP season mostly on YouTube. The USFS needs to use all of the great tools to reach out to those casual fans. They could put out videos short on YouTube explaining about each discipline, how the scoring system works, different kinds of jumps,ect.

 

[Mathman]

I'm sure that people like Michelle Kwan and Dorothy Hamill have ideas on this subject and it would be great to hear what they have to say.

To be honest, the biggest stars on the performance end are not always the ones to turn to in developing the sport as a successful business enterprise. There are reasons that shows have producers and backers. Dorothy Hamill was marketed aggressively (by others) and made millions, but lost her shirt when she bought Ice Capades and tried to make it a financial success again. In fact, this Wikipedia quote is telling:

After the Ice Capades folded due to competition and changing national tastes in entertainment (notably favoring the professional sports of football and basketball), Hamill bought the financially strapped company's assets in 1993 in an effort to revive earlier successes, but eventually sold it to Pat Robertson's International Family Entertainment, Inc. in 1995.

Scott Hamilton, on the other hand, was an even better entrepreneur and impresario than he was a skater. (He formed his own company, Stars on Ice, after he was told by Ice Capades that no one was interested in seeing male skaters.) Tom Collins was also adept for many year at giving the audience what they wanted to see. (Year after year the most popular acts on COI were not necessarily the Olympic stars like Michelle Kwan and Brian Boitano, but acrobats Besedin and Polishchuk, hula hoop girl Irina Grigorian

http://www.windweaver.com/coi2003/grigorian91605.jpg

and the novelty numbers by Victor Petrenko, Surya Bonaly and Rudy Galindo. According to legend, Rudy once asked Tom Collins if he could please skate something else besides YMCA -- but Tom wouldn't hear of it. )

I also read somewhere -- I think this is true -- that after the 1992 Olympics, Scott Hamilton sat down with his financial and market research people and said, "You know guys, we need to sign up some of the recent Olympians. You know, someone like Kristi Yamaguchi." The money people said, "No, Scott, you don't need someone like Kristi Yamaguchi -- you need Kristi Yamaguchi." As I heard it, this was the only time in her career that Kristi played hard ball. She was already touring with Brian Boitano, and was in a position to demand some concessions from Scott, such as that they hire her choreographer, Sandra Bezik, for the SOI tour. (And the rest is history. )

http://www.oocities.org/wellesley/4558/951736e.jpg

Well OK, this is show skating. Still...

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

When Trump loses the election lets get him to run things

 

[mrrice]

Well Dorothy's problem was that she didn't really have any business experience. I'm always sad when I hear about her financial problems but, she might be a valuable member of the council. She could give first hand knowledge of what not to do and why she was unsuccessful.

 

[theoreticalgirl]

Are trans narratives prevalent in other sports? Which ones? Gymnastics?? Diving?? Which ones???

I'm not sure because given the amount of pushback I've seen here in this discussion re: gender, it seems like they don't exist. And maybe it's because they aren't afforded the opportunity to exist?