Can anyone beat a clean Zagitova?

[moriel]

yes, easily. i don't care about your numbers, they are from past competitions. this thread is not about whether anyone has beaten a clean zagitova in the 17-18 season but whether they can in the future. in the past, these two have been scored incorrectly. if wakaba was scored correctly on pcs (average 9-10) and zagitova was, too (average 5.5-7.5), clean alina's tech wouldn't be enough.

whether these two will ever be scored correctly, of course, remains to be seen.

Umm, numbers are everything here, because numbers define the positions of each skater.
And, if you read my post, you will see I never checked if Wakaba has beaten Zagitova at any competition.
What I checked is the scores Wakaba can get with her current level of skill at the very best circumstances.

As for PCs, please justify. I don't see, for example, how Wakaba should get 9-10. If Kostner gets 9-10, then Wakaba's score is 8-9 fair and square.
As for Zagitova, the fact you dislike her does not mean she should be getting same PCs as Antonina Dubinina or Larkin Austman.

 

[moriel]

Btw, for all the "PCs are just so wrong" people

We have judges from many different countries, at many different competitions, awarding those scores. All you people who claim "rusfed forces everybody to overscore their own skaters and underscore everybody else" and so on, think of this. There are judges from lets say Japan, USA and Canada awarding PCs to those skaters. Of course, evil rusfed did something to them to force them give Zagitova and Medvedeva 9s instead of 5s and 7s they deserve. And it is not just one judge, or one competition, it is many judges at many competitions.

The judges judge it like that, all of them. The fact that a skater should get 10 and another skater should get a 0 in your own personal scorebook does not mean judges agree with you. It does not even mean that judges are wrong.

I am always happy with scoring? No. But that it how it is. So when you people say your favourite skater should be getting 10s across the board and beat everybody, be realistic. That is not how it works.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

We've seen a clean Osmond about as much as we've seen a clean Zagitova. If we've giving one credit for going clean, then we have to give the others credit for going clean as well.

I don't think so. Zagitova only skated both programs clean this season twice (Europeans, Olympics) but that's still twice more than Osmond. Zagitova also skated clean in every junior competition last year except JGP Slovenia and EYOF and skated clean at Russian Nationals to finish second behind only Medvedeva. On the other hand, Osmond hasn't skated two clean programs since 2010 afaik.

 

[Osmond4gold]

I don't think so. Zagitova only skated both programs clean this season twice (Europeans, Olympics) but that's still twice more than Osmond. Zagitova also skated clean in every junior competition last year except JGP Slovenia and EYOF and skated clean at Russian Nationals to finish second behind only Medvedeva. On the other hand, Osmond hasn't skated two clean programs since 2010 afaik.

Again, Osmond is not prone to splat fests like some have recently experienced. I believe it's a matter of training to peak at the right time while avoiding injury. Going back over 2 years, Kaetlyn's worst performance is a 4th. How some could only wish for such consistency, both in results and the ability to compete.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Again, Osmond is not prone to splat fests like some have recently experienced.

I wouldn't say Alina is prone to splat fests because of one meltdown. Something was off for her at Worlds, because even her SP jumps were smaller than usual. It may have just been nerves, but who knows.

I do think that Alina's success this season has made people forget she botched a lot of short programs, whereas Evgenia at her peak might have been more dominant over the field.

 

[cheerio2]

Wakaba no way as she's underscored so her own personal nightmare in the other direction has to end first. I mean her best FS scored the same PCS as Zagitova's Worlds meltdown.

LOL what even is PCS. Kill that with fire then throw salt at it.

Wakaba wasn't at the Olympics. She had few international wins prior to that. She skated in an earlier group. Alina was fresh off the OGM, of course she was going to have at least some PCS bump. While I agree with you that Wakaba's PCS has always been underscored, and while I don't believe that PCS should have anything to do with reputation, that's the way it's always been applied. Alina's PCS was only 5th highest of the field that night, which is actually very low by historical standards, where most OGMs and even World Champions get the highest PCS of the whole field even with error filled programs (and some skaters even win with error filled programs).

Were you as outraged when Yuzuru still got the highest PCS of the field at Cup of China 2014 despite falling 4 times? He was disoriented after a collision and barely even made it through the program. Were you as outraged when Yuna had 3 clean triples at Skate America 2009 and still got the highest PCS of the field, 6 points higher than Rachel Flatt who skated a 7 triple program? Were you as outraged when Yuna at Worlds 2010 clearly didn't even want to be there and made multiple errors not only on jumps but also on easy elements like spins and spirals, and still scored the highest PCS of the field, over Mao who was really hungry for the gold and skated 2 clean programs with 3 triple axels? And need I even mention Patrick Chan and Carolina Kostner--I really like them both, but they are sometimes given quite a bit of leeway, to put it mildly. Compared to all that, Alina's 5th best PCS at Worlds is nothing.

 

[AshWagsFan]

I don't think so. Zagitova only skated both programs clean this season twice (Europeans, Olympics) but that's still twice more than Osmond. Zagitova also skated clean in every junior competition last year except JGP Slovenia and EYOF and skated clean at Russian Nationals to finish second behind only Medvedeva. On the other hand, Osmond hasn't skated two clean programs since 2010 afaik.

Lol we’re yet to see a clean program from Kaetlyn, I don’t see her beating a clean Alina or any of the young Russians If she can’t go clean(and/or consistently clean)

 

[millie]

Who became the World Champion in 2017-2018? Kaetlyn Osmond! It is highest award that a figure skater can get. It’s not what happened in the past, how many times she fell, it matters that when it counted she stood on her feet(unlike some people) and rose to the top. Kaetlyn is like fine wine, she gets better with time. The point is that she has already beaten Zagitova and we don’t have to surmise about it. Zagitova, Clean or not, Kaetlyn has already proved that Zagitova can be beaten. Case closed...

 

[Joekaz]

Wakaba has the ability if she has the properly constructed programs and enough support from fed to get parity in PCS scoring. Problem is Japanese Fed seems weak.

 

[Joekaz]

You made it sound like it's some Russian "cooking" to get Alina the Olympic Gold medal, when in fact, most Russians prefer Medvedeva to win. Either skater wins, Russia gets 1 Gold, 1 Silver. Obviously Alina won the Olympics based on merits alone. No one "cooked" or "pushed" Alina, she earned them, Gold after Gold in a nearly flawless streak. Wakaba also took 6th place at GPF, worse than Alina's 5th at World's. If Wakaba had won Gold in GP, in GPF, in Japan Nationals, Gold after Gold after Gold, then sure her PCS should match Alina's.:sarcasm:

Personally, I prefer the other Japanese skaters because they do far more difficult programs with transitions, steps, refinement, etc than Wakaba. Her jumps were also less impressive at World's, smaller and and heavier. Ugh...and the spins......take a good look. I think Rika (with her transitions into 3A), and (IF with better personality and choreography development) Kaori outperform Wakaba at this juncture. She had a good choreography this time with Skyfall but Gypsy Dance was a really bad performance.

We don't know how puberty will affect Rika and Sakamoto is juniorish bordering on awkward. Wakaba is the strongest all around Japanese right now. And is even younger than Kaori.

 

[charlotte14]

Clean Zagitova with highest BV right now? No.

But the system will change.

 

[Vandevska]

Who became the World Champion in 2017-2018? Kaetlyn Osmond! It is highest award that a figure skater can get. It’s not what happened in the past, how many times she fell, it matters that when it counted she stood on her feet(unlike some people) and rose to the top. Kaetlyn is like fine wine, she gets better with time. The point is that she has already beaten Zagitova and we don’t have to surmise about it. Zagitova, Clean or not, Kaetlyn has already proved that Zagitova can be beaten. Case closed...

Worlds above Olympics? Are you kidding?

 

[chopinskate]

what if i told you that Yuna/Mao/Caro are not that great

https://imgflip.com/s/meme/And-everybody-loses-their-minds.jpg

 

[yume]

Wakaba wasn't at the Olympics. She had few international wins prior to that. She skated in an earlier group. Alina was fresh off the OGM, of course she was going to have at least some PCS bump. While I agree with you that Wakaba's PCS has always been underscored, and while I don't believe that PCS should have anything to do with reputation, that's the way it's always been applied. Alina's PCS was only 5th highest of the field that night, which is actually very low by historical standards, where most OGMs and even World Champions get the highest PCS of the whole field even with error filled programs (and some skaters even win with error filled programs).

Were you as outraged when Yuzuru still got the highest PCS of the field at Cup of China 2014 despite falling 4 times? He was disoriented after a collision and barely even made it through the program. Were you as outraged when Yuna had 3 clean triples at Skate America 2009 and still got the highest PCS of the field, 6 points higher than Rachel Flatt who skated a 7 triple program? Were you as outraged when Yuna at Worlds 2010 clearly didn't even want to be there and made multiple errors not only on jumps but also on easy elements like spins and spirals, and still scored the highest PCS of the field, over Mao who was really hungry for the gold and skated 2 clean programs with 3 triple axels? And need I even mention Patrick Chan and Carolina Kostner--I really like them both, but they are sometimes given quite a bit of leeway, to put it mildly. Compared to all that, Alina's 5th best PCS at Worlds is nothing.

+1000.
Zagitova was overscored in PCS all the season but by the standards of that overscoring she got enough punished at worlds. She lost 6 points which is a lot i think. I was really surprised, i thought that judges would still give her 70+ PCS. And i would not have been that schocked.
Yes her PCS are totally unfair when we compare with Wakaba's, but it would not be a scandal for me if she had got more. Since someone like Kostner can make as much errors as she want and still get sky high PCS i don't see why someone else should not.

 

[yume]

what if i told you that Yuna/Mao/Caro are not that great

I agree for the last.

 

[moriel]

+1000.
Zagitova was overscored in PCS all the season but by the standards of that overscoring she got enough punished at worlds. She lost 6 points which is a lot i think. I was really surprised, i thought that judges would still give her 70+ PCS. And i would not have been that schocked.
Yes her PCS are totally unfair when we compare with Wakaba's, but it would not be a scandal for me if she had got more. Since someone like Kostner can make as much errors as she want and still get sky high PCS i don't see why someone else should not.

Overall, my point was that Wakaba loses 10 points to Zagitova without considering PCs, just by looking at her current TES and GOE.
Now looking at both, while Wakaba is better than Zagitova, I don't think realistically judges will give Wakaba +10 PCs over Zagitova.

 

[Tulipstar]

I don't think so. Zagitova only skated both programs clean this season twice (Europeans, Olympics)

Seems like she needs Evgenia to be at a match to be at her best.

 

[chopinskate]

Everyone simultaneously can and cannot beat a clean Zagitova No one's talents undermined!

 

[Tulipstar]

Everyone simultaneously can and cannot beat a clean Zagitova No one's talents undermined!

It's like quantum superposition

 

[millie]

Everyone simultaneously can and cannot beat a clean Zagitova No one's talents undermined!

The thing about this statement is that Alina bombed at Worlds, three major falls, that no one ever thought would happen. So this scenario of anyone beating a clean Alina might never happen because after that disaster at Worlds, she might never be clean again. So it should say “Can anyone beat Zagitova “ and the answer is yes, Kaetlyn Osmond did it. No ifs, ands or buts about it. ... I know it’s a hard pill for her fans swallow, but they have to take it....