Ethics and "young" skaters at ISU events

[JimR]

While watching Europeans there were a number of 15 and 16 year old skaters. Sepcenko, Jyrkinen, Repond.

It caused me to recall the the impassioned words of Eric Radford to the ISU last year.

"The life of an athlete is short and intense, their experience in this short phase sets the platform for the rest of their lives -- physically, spiritually emotionally."

"While I hear the concerns of certain nations about the immediate difficulty that they might face with this proposal being passed ... is a medal really worth the life of a young athlete?"

While it is well within the rules to send 15 and 16 year old children to international competitions for the time being, knowing the dangers to these children, shouldn't federations be taking the initiative and only keeping 15 and 16 year olds home until they are mature enough to compete with older skaters? We've established that it is too unhealthy to have 15 and 16 year olds skating in adult international competitions, therefore morally and ethically how can they possibly still be sending 15 and 16 year olds to these competitions. It's quite bizarre. It doesn't suddenly become damaging in two years when the rule comes into full effect, it's inflicting damage on these girls now.

It feels like their are countries out there exploiting this rule (and the children) for the sake of a competition or potential medal.

As Eric Radford said, is a medal really worth the life of an athlete?

 

[TT_Fin]

I will answer this more later. But now shortly. about the Finns Kiira Korpi and Juulia were both 16 when they made their international debut. Both have said they were too young.

 

[yesterday]

I'd say it also depends on a) how mature a skater might be at that age, as bodies and personalities can be very different.
And b) some feds might not have an alternative skater to send, as others might not have minimums or are injured or not eligible due to whatever circumstances.

So I would always look into the particular case, however, when easily possible, protecting minors is never a bad thing to do.

Another part of this is that the skaters earn their spots through (mostly) Nationals in their countries. So you could just hope that they won't get a good result there then it's not an issue or you exclude them from the senior competition. Or let them skate but tell them in advance what will happen.

Surely not a nice situation for a fed doing this.

 

[LiamForeman]

While watching Europeans there were a number of 15 and 16 year old skaters. Sepcenko, Jyrkinen, Repond.

It caused me to recall the the impassioned words of Eric Radford to the ISU last year.

"The life of an athlete is short and intense, their experience in this short phase sets the platform for the rest of their lives -- physically, spiritually emotionally."

"While I hear the concerns of certain nations about the immediate difficulty that they might face with this proposal being passed ... is a medal really worth the life of a young athlete?"

While it is well within the rules to send 15 and 16 year old children to international competitions for the time being, knowing the dangers to these children, shouldn't federations be taking the initiative and only keeping 15 and 16 year olds home until they are mature enough to compete with older skaters? We've established that it is too unhealthy to have 15 and 16 year olds skating in adult international competitions, therefore morally and ethically how can they possibly still be sending 15 and 16 year olds to these competitions. It's quite bizarre. It doesn't suddenly become damaging in two years when the rule comes into full effect, it's inflicting damage on these girls now.

It feels like their are countries out there exploiting this rule (and the children) for the sake of a competition or potential medal.

As Eric Radford said, is a medal really worth the life of an athlete?

What dangers? As compared to a 17 yo?

 

[Ziotic]

What dangers? As compared to a 17 yo?

I was a competitive skater, and no even at the highest echelon. I stopped the summer I was 17 as I was heading to university in the fall.
The amount of changes my body underwent during that summer once I was no longer training was insane, even though I had gone through puberty at an earlier age.
17/18 is really the age where those changes won’t be off put by excessive exercise, at least not without other side effects.
I think the goal is to have competitors who have undergone those changes and adjusted to them, not those who are actively trying to put them off.

 

[TT_Fin]

Well now some notifications. Kiira Korpi was born in September but her situation was different than Janna's. His father was famous hockey coach and she was not the number 1 skater in Finland when she made her EC debut. She was 16 and turned 17 next autumn. I think I must find the interview, it maybe in English where she said I think something like that even used to it father was in TV it was different to be in the spotlight all the time herself and she was so young. Juulia Turkkila had said in an interview "it good the age limit will be rised, I was a child". But her situation was different, she got her spot in the shadow of Kiira Korpi who got all the attention on those times. I think Janna came to spotlight to those who don't follow FS intensively from nowhere. She was at GP, but national TV did not show it so many who now watched Euros probably have never heard about her before. I have already read critisim because of her Russian coach and most of those people don't know that her mother is Russian also. I am very afraid of Finnish word "somemyrsky" soon, I don't good translation to it, but it means a mass of aggressive comments in social media. I hope she does not read opinion columns. Is she too young? IMO, yes. Do I think it was the right choice to send her? The local fed had the rules and followed their rules. They did not have age limits, so I just say the rules were followed. Were they anybody else older who could have reached the result of hers? By clean skate the scores near, the placement in top10, by clean skate quite many of those who had the TES. I think she skated better than nobody really expected and we can only wait how she can handle the publicity she got suddenly. FS is not popular, so after worlds she can live in peace until next big competitions. She will turn to 16 in a couple of weeks, but that makes no big difference.

What comes to puberty, Janna grow taller in a short time. A couple of years ago she was tiny, much shorter than I was at the age of 13 but now she is a couple of centimetres taller than I am as a adult. People have puberty and growth spurts in different ages, and some like me grow steadily without any spurts (and I am shorter as average adult Finns). Also the age of mental puberty varies a lot. And if somebody asks Janna 2035 was she too young, her answer may vary what she answers now. She has asked for several times what she thinks about the raise of the age limits and her answer is always "I am mature enough to compete in seniors". I have no idea is it her own idea to turn to seniors and only seniors this season or her coach's or somebody else. But I could imagine the raise of the age limit may have affected to that decision. No knowledge or information about it, just a guess.

 

[moonvine]

While watching Europeans there were a number of 15 and 16 year old skaters. Sepcenko, Jyrkinen, Repond.

It caused me to recall the the impassioned words of Eric Radford to the ISU last year.

"The life of an athlete is short and intense, their experience in this short phase sets the platform for the rest of their lives -- physically, spiritually emotionally."

"While I hear the concerns of certain nations about the immediate difficulty that they might face with this proposal being passed ... is a medal really worth the life of a young athlete?"

While it is well within the rules to send 15 and 16 year old children to international competitions for the time being, knowing the dangers to these children, shouldn't federations be taking the initiative and only keeping 15 and 16 year olds home until they are mature enough to compete with older skaters? We've established that it is too unhealthy to have 15 and 16 year olds skating in adult international competitions, therefore morally and ethically how can they possibly still be sending 15 and 16 year olds to these competitions. It's quite bizarre. It doesn't suddenly become damaging in two years when the rule comes into full effect, it's inflicting damage on these girls now.

It feels like their are countries out there exploiting this rule (and the children) for the sake of a competition or potential medal.

As Eric Radford said, is a medal really worth the life of an athlete?

Ok, what specific dangers? Physical, mental? Is he literally saying their lives will be in danger? I’m honestly not understanding Eric’s point here.

 

[JimR]

Just to add the ISU commission cited concerns "burnout, disordered eating, and long-term consequences of injury" when trying to pass this new rule. This was the whole impetus for raising the age limit because the dangers to young skaters was too great.

And what's legal is not really relevant, it's about social responsibility. We see organisations and people take the moral lead all the time with issues of environment, discrimination, rights, abuse, etc when there is no legal obligation to do otherwise, and in fact more beneficial for them to continue to exploit legal loopholes for their own gain.

This is a black or white issue. Either it's wrong to have young teenagers compete with adults or not. It doesn't suddenly become unacceptable two years from now. Otherwise why was the rule brought in if it's perfectly fine to create "burnout, disordered eating, and long-term consequences of injury" in young teenagers for the next two seasons.

 

[DancingCactus]

I actually also don't like it. They might have a lot of potential and they deserve to be in the spotlight. But if they are so good as to be deemed worthy of skating in seniors, shouldn't they aim at becoming Junior GP and world medalists first and then come to seniors once they achieved that?
They also don't have the artistic expression yet. Repond skated clean and very smoothly, but in terms of artistry of course she is still very immature. All that heavy makeup and then when you see them in the kiss and cry, they look like children. I didn't like it with the Russian girls, so why should I approve when it's non-Russians. Let them grow up first and then they'll hopefully have a long senior career.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Just to add the ISU commission cited concerns "burnout, disordered eating, and long-term consequences of injury" when trying to pass this new rule. This was the whole impetus for raising the age limit because the dangers to young skaters was too great.

And what's legal is not really relevant, it's about social responsibility. We see organisations and people take the moral lead all the time with issues of environment, discrimination, rights, abuse, etc when there is no legal obligation to do otherwise, and in fact more beneficial for them to continue to exploit legal loopholes for their own gain.

This is a black or white issue. Either it's wrong to have young teenagers compete with adults or not. It doesn't suddenly become unacceptable two years from now. Otherwise why was the rule brought in if it's perfectly fine to create "burnout, disordered eating, and long-term consequences of injury" in young teenagers for the next two seasons.

But they don't stop being teenagers at age 17. Every person is different too in terms of the rate of their emotional growth. Some 15/ 16 year olds can handle the challenges, even where 17/ 18 year olds may not. It's an individual thing. Plus the rule change was finally made so the ISU could point to something they did in response to the Olympic doping scandal.

 

[ladyjane]

I don't like it, but I do understand ISU introduced a phasing out for those youngsters who are allready on that path before the ISU decision was taken. That doesn't make me condone it. I would only call it unethical if a youngster was rushed to do seniors because otherwise it won't be allowed anymore. That's misusing the transition period.

 

[el henry]

Yes, it is wrong to have 15 and 16 year old teenagers compete with adults. From any country, in any competition, in any year.

The ISU's reasoning is sound, justified, and personally I would like to see a higher age limit.

If you are great at 15, you will be great at 17/18 and it will be a pleasure to see you skate then in seniors if you choose to continue skating.

I believe that answers the question.

 

[el henry]

Ok, what specific dangers? Physical, mental? Is he literally saying their lives will be in danger? I’m honestly not understanding Eric’s point here.

This is a quote taken from Eric's well reasoned speech in favor of raising the senior age limit at the ISU congress:

The life of an athlete is short and intense. Their experience in this short period of their lives sets the stage for the rest of their lives, physically, mentally and emotionally," Radford said

Radford acknowledged the difficulties some countries might face in adapting to the age change — including retaining athletes for additional years. But, he added, "I hope that the long-term implications are the ones that are considered with more weight and importance.

"I pose the question: is a medal worth risking the health of a child or a young athlete?" Radford said.

Figure skaters’ minimum age for top competitions will rise to 17 after scandal

The move comes months after Russia's Kamila Valieva, then 15, was caught in a storm of controversy at the Beijing Winter Olympics.

www.opb.org

 

[Skater Boy]

Unethical, unwise, unsafe.. these are some words that might be used interchangeable or not. Maybe, just maybe, the exploitation of young people especially young women (girls) in figure skating and gymnastics is wrong. Even back in the days of the 12 year old sensation Tracey Wainmann from Canada (now coaching Roman Sadovsky), Elena Vordorov?? (first Russian/Soviet lady to win a world medal) Lipinski, Kwan even Baiul and Hughes forget the army of young ladies especially in Russia now or the last decade have been used. Yes, each person is different including their brain and body development as well as different supports. But the emotional and physical toil skating puts on these competitive ladies is a lot. Having hip issues before you are 30 years old and back issues before 20. The pounding the body takes which is often still developing is concerning. I wonder if this is more for the glory of the sport and country than the individual. I don't think people thought during Peggy Fleming or even Dorothy Hamill time that ladies (or men) would be doing triples and quads and contorting their body to get points for spins.

 

[lariko]

I was actually thinking the same thing with both juniors and seniors this year where various federations sent athletes on the low cut off, like 13 yos into the junior competitions to skate next to the 17-19 yos and the 15-16 yos to skate in seniors, who will continue to qualify for seniors as age limit increases.

However, in Eu women, 2/3 medalists were 20’s, and if Kurakova scored only slightly higher, all 3 medal winners would have been out of their teens.

This question will be moot for seniors soon, but I hope that it would be raised for juniors, because that’s where we now see the huge differences between the competitors in terms of physical maturity.

 

[mrrice]

This is a difficult situation to gage. When I look at Michelle Kwan, she was 14 when she delivered this amazing LP. It truly depends on the Parents and the Coaches. Michelle had both when she was young. When you look at Tonya Harding, she basically had no "Real" parental support and relied mostly on her coaches. Here's Michelle at 14 years old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlJuZjzpUM

 

[moonvine]

Unethical, unwise, unsafe.. these are some words that might be used interchangeable or not. Maybe, just maybe, the exploitation of young people especially young women (girls) in figure skating and gymnastics is wrong. Even back in the days of the 12 year old sensation Tracey Wainmann from Canada (now coaching Roman Sadovsky), Elena Vordorov?? (first Russian/Soviet lady to win a world medal) Lipinski, Kwan even Baiul and Hughes forget the army of young ladies especially in Russia now or the last decade have been used. Yes, each person is different including their brain and body development as well as different supports. But the emotional and physical toil skating puts on these competitive ladies is a lot. Having hip issues before you are 30 years old and back issues before 20. The pounding the body takes which is often still developing is concerning. I wonder if this is more for the glory of the sport and country than the individual. I don't think people thought during Peggy Fleming or even Dorothy Hamill time that ladies (or men) would be doing triples and quads and contorting their body to get points for spins.

Gymnasts have to be 16 to compete internationally as seniors now. I think it has helped the sport IMMENSELY. One never ever used to see a women’s gymnastics team with athletes over the age of 20. Now it is commonplace.

 

[moonvine]

This is a difficult situation to gage. When I look at Michelle Kwan, she was 14 when she delivered this amazing LP. It truly depends on the Parents and the Coaches. Michelle had both when she was young. When you look at Tonya Harding, she basically had no "Real" parental support and relied mostly on her coaches. Here's Michelle at 14 years old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlJuZjzpUM

The problem with that is we really can’t evaluate each skater individually to decide whether they can skate as an adult. Also that was back in 6.0 era which I’m not sure how we can compare it to today.

 

[Regjohn1]

Gymnasts have to be 16 to compete internationally as seniors now. I think it has helped the sport IMMENSELY. One never ever used to see a women’s gymnastics team with athletes over the age of 20. Now it is commonplace.

Wrong.
Gymnasts have to turn 16 by the end of the year.
So, you can have a birthday of December 31, 2007, and compete at senior worlds this year at the age of 15.
People always bring up the "gymnastics' minimum age is 16" thing without knowing the actual technicalities of the rule.

 

[mrrice]

The problem with that is we really can’t evaluate each skater individually to decide whether they can skate as an adult. Also that was back in 6.0 era which I’m not sure how we can compare it to today.

Well, there hasn't been another lady from the US that has done a 3A as well as Tonya did and she was from the 6.0 Era. I still think it has to do with money. A talented JR may be admired by fans but I've never seen a JR get sponsorship money like Michelle did when she was 15. If they are strict with this policy, I think the skaters will adjust. I also think the Junior division should be getting more airtime. The public only sees Senior Skaters as I have never seen a Junior Event on TV. The mainstream press only covers Senior Events and even those are difficult to find for the casual fan.